Tookie Williams Case

M

Mario88

Invader
I don't know if this story has gotten publicity over in Canada or Europe (or outside of Southern California for that matter), however, it is a rather big story and it is a potential disaster.

[a href=\'http://www.dailynews.com/ci_3302814\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.dailynews.com/ci_3302814[/a]

Tookie Williams is acclaimed to be the founder of the "Crips", which is one of the most violent street gangs in Los Angeles. After allegedly murdering four people in 1979, he was jailed and is now faced with the death penalty. However, he still claims to be innocent, and is scheduled to be put to death at midnight (pacific time). One big problem is that many blacks are threatening to caues riots. It happened before with the Rodney King trial, where many blacks rioted, and although it was painfully obvious that Rodney King got mistreated by the police officers who where found innocent by the court, I still don't believe that some people should have responded by rioting.

It's a story that I find interesting. I thought I'd share it with you guys.
 
Good topic -though I believe some Americans will be annoyed by it because from what I get, this is getting a huge lot of publicity there.

To me, this case simply shows several reasons of why death penalty is wrong. We have a person here who has done murder some 26 years ago and has been in prison ever since. In Germany, this in fact exceeds the maximum prison sentence for a murderer (25 years). Now the authorities are going to kill him.
Apparently, this person has learned his lesson and changed in those 26 years in prison. This is what a prison sentence, or any sentence in general, should be about- learning from your mistakes, learning what you did wrong, understanding why it is wrong. It would be a perfect example of how and why the judicial system works. The only thing is that he was killed at the end, not set free.

I know there are cases in which the person who just sat through his punishment goes to steal/kill/rape again. There is a way of dealing with it, not a completely safe one, but the best one can do. If the sentence of, say, 25 years is over, do a general and comprehensive examination to check if the guy has really changed. If there are doubts, keep him in, if there are no doubts, set him free. Of course, there are always ways to slip through the control, but this is still the best way of dealing with it. Killing them is not the sollution. It does not work as a punishment, because if the guy is dead, he can learn nothing from it. It does not work as a warning because anyone who commits a crime does so in the belief that he doesn't get caught. If it worked as a warning, the murder rate in the United States would be the lowest in the western world, while those of Germany or Britain would be among the highest. We all know it isn't so.

And to sum it all up, there is one fundamental reason why the death penalty is wrong. It is because killing people is wrong. No matter what they did. Even if they killed somebody else. If somebody killed a person and gets killed for it, who kills the person who killed that person?

I could write a lot more on this subject, but maybe not now.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 13 2005, 12:00 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 13 2005, 12:00 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]And to sum it all up, there is one fundamental reason why the death penalty is wrong. It is because killing people is wrong.
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I couldn't have put it better myself. George Bush is a hypocrite as he gets up at 6 O'Clock each morning to say an hours prayer. He is a fundamentalist Protestant, therefore he's supposed to take his lessons from scripture. Has he missed Exodus where it says:

"Thou shall not kill"?

It really is that simple, killing people is so utterly wrong. I'm not saying it's all George Bush's fault, it happens elsewhere in the world, but he is a good example of hypocrisy. He would point to scripture for this case in the Old Testament:

"An eye for an eya, a tooth for a tooth"

Anyway, I believe the death penalty is wrong because it contradicts what prison is about. People are there to deal with their problems and get rehabilitated, not to serve out a pointless life and then get killed at the end. Capital punishment is just a matter of people wanting revenge, it's not about "what is the correct thing to do".
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Dec 13 2005, 02:35 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Dec 13 2005, 02:35 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]It really is that simple, killing people is so utterly wrong.  I'm not saying it's all George Bush's fault, it happens elsewhere in the world, but he is a good example of hypocrisy.  He would point to scripture for this case in the Old Testament:

"An eye for an eya, a tooth for a tooth"
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I believe that somewhere in the New Testament, Jesus says something about how that is a statment that should not be followed. He then says something along the lines of if someone strikes you simply turn the other cheek. I don't know what part of the Bible he says all this, but I'm pretty sure it's there somewhere.
 
But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mathew: 24, 49-51

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[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Dec 13 2005, 06:05 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Dec 13 2005, 06:05 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I couldn't have put it better myself.  George Bush is a hypocrite as he gets up at 6 O'Clock each morning to say an hours prayer.  He is a fundamentalist Protestant, therefore he's supposed to take his lessons from scripture.  Has he missed Exodus where it says:

"Thou shall not kill"?
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It actually says "Thou shall not murder". The Hebrew word literally means 'the intentional and premeditated killing of someone'.

In the bible God is not always against war, and He often orders the Israelites to go to war. War is portrayed as necessary to rid the world of sin.

“there is…a time to love and a time to hate; time for war and a time for peace."
Ecclesiastes 3:8
 
Is execution murder? Is execution 'the intentional and premeditated killing of someone'?
 
So you think honest hard working people should pay taxes to keep murders alive? How is paying for someone who killed your family member to workout and get an education justice?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 13 2005, 11:47 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 13 2005, 11:47 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Is execution murder? Is execution 'the intentional and premeditated killing of someone'?
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Hmmm, it is both intentional and premeditated, isn't it? But it still doesn't strike me as murder. Capital punishment is an interesting subject; take your example in Germany, Perun. Why is he to be executed, having spent 25 years living at the expense of tax-payers? Wouldn't it have been better to execute him straight off for the crime he committed, or to release him having 'done his time' in prison and hopefully learnt his lesson? That doesn't seem to me to be a well thought out system.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-rytoda+Dec 14 2005, 12:35 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(rytoda @ Dec 14 2005, 12:35 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]So you think honest hard working people should pay taxes to keep murders alive? How is paying for someone who killed your family member to workout and get an education justice?
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Sorry to burst your bubble but, killing a prisonner is more costly than keeping him alive.
 
It's easy for someone who hasn't had a loved one brutally murdered to condemn capital punishment...

This guy not only founded one of the most blood-thirsty criminal organizations in history, he tortured at least four people to death. He shot one of them in the back and then laughed at the sounds the guy made as he died. (pause for a moment to consider that, if you please)

What if that victim was your father? Wouldn't you want him to die? I sure as hell would.

As for bringing the Bible's commandments into this argument, don't even start. In America, despite the wishes of some presidents named George, they have seperation of church and state. Religious groups can (and do) campaign against capital punishment, but it's not their call to make. This man was executed because he committed multiple crimes against the people of California. The people of California have agreed, upon constituting themselves as a political entity, that this kind of crime is punishable by death. To say he shouldn't be killed because of what the Bible says is to negate the democratic will of the people of California, which is wrong.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Dec 14 2005, 03:36 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Dec 14 2005, 03:36 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]To say he shouldn't be killed because of what the Bible says is to negate the democratic will of the people of California.
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:sigh: Since when did man have the right to dicide if another man should live or die?
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Dec 14 2005, 03:36 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Dec 14 2005, 03:36 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]which is wrong.
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What is wrong is people killing for the sake of revenge, should we not let God judge?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Dec 14 2005, 04:36 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Dec 14 2005, 04:36 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's easy for someone who hasn't had a loved one brutally murdered to condemn capital punishment...

This guy not only founded one of the most blood-thirsty criminal organizations in history, he tortured at least four people to death. He shot one of them in the back and then laughed at the sounds the guy made as he died. (pause for a moment to consider that, if you please)

What if that victim was your father? Wouldn't you want him to die? I sure as hell would.[/quote]
I am against death penalty. First I don't think we are able to judge fairly who must or must not die (different points of view, lack of proofs...). And moreover, we can't because we can make mistakes. So what happened if you condemn someone to death and he/she is in fact innocent?
As for the easiness of condemning capital punishment because no one I loved or knowned has died in a brutal murder... Well, I can understand the feelings of a person who experienced that. I suppose I too will the murderer to suffer.
But to die? I'm not that sure. What does the death of this murderer will bring to me? That is revenge.
In the Tookie Williams case, what I read underlined that the trial was not completely fair and/or there was some lack of proofs, some witnesses not heard...


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I believe that somewhere in the New Testament, Jesus says something about how that is a statment that should not be followed. He then says something along the lines of if someone strikes you simply turn the other cheek. I don't know what part of the Bible he says all this, but I'm pretty sure it's there somewhere.[/quote]
Matthew 5, 38
 
I live in the states and I haven't heard a single bit of news about this case. Also I would leave the bible out of this. Most christians and specially fundamentalists (Bush is EVANGELICAL by the way...) use the ever famous "Render unto God what is God's and Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". Separation of Church and state. REGARDLESS of this separation the Death Penalty is still wrong for what Perun stated above, after being in prison 25 years you are NOT the same person, hopefully you are a better one.

As for Christian Politicians being hypocrites... what Christian that isn't a politician isn't? it is VERY hard to live life as a Christian, when was the last time you met a Christian that left everything to follow Jesus? and even after that led a non-judgmental, loving life? C.S. Lewis said a Christian couldn't be a polititian because it was very hard to be one and live the Gospel. Christians, again usually fundamentals, that quote the old testament to justify wars, death penalty and what not TO ME they are full of shit, as christians our main source of wisdom and inspiration is...*drum roll*... CHRIST!!! He said to not even RETALIATE if we are wronged much less start a war.

Duke I have to disagree with you, you are right that it is easy for us to say murderers shouldn't be killed if we've never lost a loved one, but nobody said being a true christian was easy...
 
I think putting God to this discussion would be only plain sarcasm. How many people have you heard of died by Gods hand? They don´t know for sure if he is with us or not. If they did they could also put him on the ground and wait for lightning to struck into him. It is as they say ´God works in strange ways´, then why not through human beings?

[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Dec 14 2005, 04:36 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Dec 14 2005, 04:36 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What if that victim was your father? Wouldn't you want him to die? I sure as hell would.
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I agree with this line, an execution can be done in two ways. By or against the law, vengeance isn´t somthing to still with a fraction of a life discarted. People want to see blood.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Battlemaniacs+Dec 13 2005, 11:57 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Battlemaniacs @ Dec 13 2005, 11:57 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Sorry to burst your bubble but, killing a prisonner is more costly than keeping him alive.
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To this topic I really don't know what my opinion is. It really is something to think about. But why is it more expensive to kill a prisoner. I know that they give them an expensive lethal injection, but isn't there a cheap human way of kiling a person?
 
First of all, here is what I have to say about the tax payer argument.

People like to argue that prison is in fact a "holiday on the taxpayer's cost". I can not but disagree with this statement.
It is a fact that people in prison do enjoy quite a few luxuries these days (at least in Germany), and they might not even have had these luxuries before in their lives. Objectively speaking, this is improving their situation, and I too would support the removal of some of these luxuries (such as individual TV or radio). However, in prison, you are in prison. This means that even if you have the possibility to go quite far, you can go only this far. You are in the same environment for years. You can't leave. You are locked in. For me personally, this would be hell.
Apart from that, if I pay taxes, I hope this money is used to improve the situation for society. The state is not there to be an authority (at least not in the modern democratic theory), but to support the people. The state is there for the people, not the other way around. And this way, the state has no right to judge about life and death. Nobody has. Only someone or something that is beyond life and death has that right. To a religious person, this would be God. To an atheist, this is, well, nobody.
An execution is done with the money of taxpayers. I would not feel well if I knew that my money was used to kill somebody. No, thank you. I would never support killing a person, unless, and I repeat, unless it is out of self-defence.
I'd rather have my money being used to keep somebody alive than to kill someone.

Second, to Duke's argument.

Of course, if someone I loved would be murdered, I would seek revenge. Being a rather emotional person, I am pretty sure about that, and I am also quite sure that most people would do so. That is why we have neutral courts and judges. Let me give you an example:
Someone you love is murdered. You and your loved one has had major problems with your neighbour (this is a very simple example), and hated him, and the neighbour hated you. You had heaty fights over petty things. Now that your loved one is murdered, you immediately suspect the neighbour, go over and kill him. But in fact, the neighbour was not the murderer, but someone else, maybe someone you don't even know. You killed the neighbour out of mistake. Now let's assume you are taken to court and tried for murder. What would your argument be?

That is why self-justice should be fought against. In a time of deep personal and emotional crisis, a person is ready to do anything, often blinded by his situation. You can hardly put it against him, but this is why a code of laws has been worked out to give the judgement to a neutral person, a judge.

As for why I think this judge or court should not sentence the murderer to death, I have already given my statement.
 
The saddest part here, is that anyone who has mentioned God, or quoted the Bible, is arguing fallaciously. The State, be that the United States, Germany, Canada, Switzerland, has the right to determine its course of action, and verily, its laws. The United States, as the Duke said, has chosen to allow its populace to execute criminals. To my opinion, it is wrong. However, many Americans do not share my opinion.

There have been elections in the US held over the death penalty, and those elections have come out in favour of capital punishment. It's a hot topic, one many politicians keep an eye on, and if there was ever a change in the beliefs of the public, it would quickly become an issue at election. The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot use the Bible to condemn or support the death penalty, because in the USA, the Bible has nothing to do with written law. If you want to point out the fallacy of calling yourself a Christian and supporting the death penalty - fine. If you want to point out that many people consider themselves pro human rights - fine. But you cannot argue the execution of this man, sentenced under law, with religion. That's one of the problems that gets us into a religiously polarized society, which the USA is seeing today.

Legally, this man was supposed to die, and he did. We, as non-Californians, as non-Americans (many of us), have absolutely no right to influence the attitudes and the legalities of the State of California. If the Province of Nova Scotia or the nation of Canada ever decides to review allowing the death penalty, I'll fight it. But I respect the decision of the people of the US and the people of California to put heinous criminals to death. I don't agree with it, but it's not my country. I don't agree with it, but I don't vote there.

Those of you who somehow blame George Bush for this execution - get your heads out of your asses. Bush, believe it or not, is not responsible for every single fuckup in the Union. In fact, this "mistake" has nothing to do with him or his pa. Capital punishment in California somehow exceeds his jurisdiction. Sure, Bush is an idiot, but the man does stick to his interpretation of the Bible. He is not a hypocrite - he believes in exactly what he's doing.

Finally, the purpose of prison is not to rehabilitate criminals - at least, not in the USA. One of the reasons they have longer prison terms and the death penalty is because a prison is designed to hold people, not to change them. Some prisons offer progressive education and trades training, but not too many, especially not in pro-execution states. The entire US correctional system needs a major overhaul to be brought up to Western standards. The purpose of prison is to keep dangerous people off the street.
 
You can use my statements to show where the ideological differences between US-American and European justice lie.
 
Excellent post, LC. I just want to make a few points of order:
- the US doesn't allow the populace to execute people, the populace allows the US to do it.
- they hold plebiscites, not elections (it’s a technicality, but still )
- Even if President Bush had wanted to stop Williams’ execution, he had no legal authority to do so. Williams’ crime wasn’t classified as a federal offence; it was a matter for the state courts. The only person with the legal authority to halt the execution was Gov. Schwarzenegger.
 
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