The Worst of the Beast

There's something i don't like here, if someone says that he hates Somewhere In Time or Seventh Son, he's gonna walk away with it. Hate Blaze's singing, TXF and VXI? Whoo, you're in for a flaming discussion.

People don't have to be Blaze bashers to dislike something about his singing or his particular record.

Personally, i think that Blaze is a great singer. So this is just an observation.
 
Zare said:
There's something i don't like here, if someone says that he hates Somewhere In Time or Seventh Son, he's gonna walk away with it. Hate Blaze's singing, TXF and VXI? Whoo, you're in for a flaming discussion.
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Good point, Zare.

On the other hand, those classic albums are still treated with more respect, or at least I have never seen such a beating as in this topic, in this manner.
 
What? If someone flames Somewhere in Time or Seventh Son here, he would be under a curse for eternity  :)

I see your point. However, there are hardly anybody who combines negative comments on these albums with calling band members bad things. You don't have to be a Blaze basher to dislike TXF or VXI. But many of those who dislike those albums are also trashtalking Blaze. My impression is that when a thread ends up in a flame war, it usually is because someone has bashed a band member (or bashed his counterpart in the discussion), not just because of opinions.

Besides this, SIT and SSOASS are very popular albums among fans. TXF and VXI have a lot more haters - and thus I think many people who like the albums are tired of hearing the same old crap.

PS: Forostar, my point exactly.
 
Natalie said:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as long as it's backed up by something reasonable and worded respectfully and with the opinion's of others in mind.
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion full stop. I don't necessaryly think it needs to be backed up with anything more than "I just do" (although, it is interesting to hear why), as long as:

a) They are not just saying it just for the sake of arguing or disagreeing with another, and
b) It is their own opinion and not borrowed from another.
 
That old Forostar again. Man, haven't you convinced yourself that I was joking when I talked about Janick Gers back in March????? Holy Jesus. It's been more than 8 months since São Paulo's concert and you remember all my words during those days ?????? I WAS JOKING. If you guys find everything I say sarcastic it's not my fault. If you guys are too literal, again, it's not my problem. Maybe here in Brazil people make fun of everything, maybe it's too much sun over our heads ! C'mon man gimme a break. By the way. As you wished it rained a lot during the show and it was simply outstanding (later you can ask Maiden if they enjoyed playing that gig here)

I don't like false moralists. I bet most of those who "condemn" my words (as if they were part of the Spanish Inquisition) throw flames at people "outside" this environment, and here try to "look" polite, educated. That sucks a lot. If you don't do that, behave like an angel, congratulations, you are about to become a Saint at the Vatican.

Natalie,

you've given some solid and good points on your posts. I don't like Blaze Bayley just because I don't consider him a good singer. When I say that , I'm making comparisons to other rock singers. I don't say that because I don't like his hairstyle or looks. I was raised listening to rock and I can tell that Blaze Bailey is miles away from...

- Geoff Tate
- Steve Perry
- Ian Gillan
- Rob Halford
- Paul Rogers
- Bruce Dickinson
- David Coverdale
- Ronnie James Dio
- even James La Brie (although this is an eternal flame war among DT's fans)
- and even Andre Mattos (the former lead singer of Angra who was between the finalists for Bruce's replacement - ok it was a band decision to find a singer different from Bruce not exactly like him)

Those guys know how to sing. Those guys have lots of technique. I don't find "good" a singer who tries to sing in a style that has nothing to do with him and I don't mean Blaze singing Bruce's or Paul's songs. Take "The Sign of the Cross" for example. He tries to reach some notes that this throat cannot reach. He tries to sustain notes like Bruce does and that's not his business. That don't mean and will never mean I "hate" Blaze as a person (like Forostar likes to mean when he talks about me). I simply don't like him as a singer. For me he's just a limited singer for Iron Maiden music. That's it.

Back to the sales stuff. I agree that Blaze years were bad for Metal in general, but those years have passed and XFactor and Virtual XI are still on sale. And fans are fans even below the water, so they would buy the albums too. As you all know it's too f&^$ hard to find recent sales numbers, especially because nowadays record labels tend to hide them from the public as sales drop every day. Eventhough I found something interesting...sales in the US after 1991 (right at the peak of grunge/no metal era), so previous sales are not included...but it shows a good trend of what America likes most.

Source : http://www.ukmix.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30105 (taken from Nielsen SoundScan)

Iron Maiden - 196,628
Killers - 211,410
Number of Beast - 357,463
Piece of Mind - 347,400
Powerslave - 299,022
Somewhere in Time - 291,420
Seventh Son - 218,056
No Prayer - 213,745
Fear of the Dark - 421,786
The X Factor - 112,710
Virtual XI - 65,243
Brave New World - 282,460
Dance of Death - 138,904

Best of the Beast - 251,112
Edward the Great - 130,611

Live After Death - 558,578
A Real Live One - 108,177
A Real Dead One - 130,652
Rock in Rio - 69,307

Ed Hunter - 52,886
Eddie's Archive - 16,000 (may 2003)

Live at Donnington - 23,639
A Real Dead/Live One - 20,621

Grand Total - 4,517,830 

another very good comparison...I know it involves popularity, charisma, but also TALENT.

BRUCE DICKINSON Solo:

Tattooed Millionaire (1990) - 20,875
Balls To Picasso (1994) - 65,317
Alive In Studio A (1995) - 9,897
Skunkworks (1996) - 20,361
Accident Of Birth (1997) - 45,921
Chemical Wedding (1998) - 41,363
Scream For Me Brazil (1999) - 10,381
Best Of Bruce Dickinson (2001) - 17,334

BLAZE solo:

Silicon Messiah (2000) - 480
Tenth Dimension (2001) - 673
As Live As It Gets (2003) - 692
Blood & Belief (2004) - 1,499


I will not say a word about Blaze's numbers.


cheers

Marcus
 
I don't really understand these figures, FOTD comes out incredibly well!

But more important: this explanation about Blaze suits me much better (compared with the previous Brazilian "fun").

Thanks for the effort.
 
Why do you need to even bother trying to prove Bruce is more popular - who doesn't know this?
Why should Bruce's popularity and Blaze's popularity have any bearing on your opinion?
I don't think many people will disagree with you that Blaze isn't as good a singer as all of those singers you have mentioned. What people will disagree with is outright writing off Blaze's contributions, I don't think sales figures, popularity or quick comparisons to some of the best singers of all time is a very fair way of judging how good someone is.
I suppose you just have very high standards.

I wholly disagree with this:
InfiniteDreamer said:
Take "The Sign of the Cross" for example. He tries to reach some notes that this throat cannot reach. He tries to sustain notes like Bruce does and that's not his business
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I thought the entire point of hiring Blaze was because he isn't a Bruce clone. It always seemed to me like Steve and the band were trying to go in a new direction rather than stick to something that got a bit tired.
 
Ardius, Forostar,

you both got my points.

I've learnt that I have to go "deeper" on my comments in order to avoid misunderstandings. If I post something here complaining about something Maiden I will look for "better and solid evidences".

You are correct when you stated that the band was looking for something different than Bruce. MY opinion : it was a bad bet. There's a quote in Portuguese concerning football that I will try to translate in something meaningful : "You make no substitutions in a winning team".  For ME, Maiden was still winning before Bruce's departure. Fear of the Dark may not be their best effort but it wasn't a miss too. The problem was not Maiden. The problem was the market and what record companies were into at that time. That certainly made Rod and Steve shake and scratch their heads a lot. "Which way do we go ?". Eventhough Maiden changed its singer, the band remained true to its roots. Man on the Edge, Sign of The Cross, The Clansman, are examples of songs that could've been sung by Bruce originally. It was different from what happened to other huge bands during those years of drought.

KISS - they released "Carnival of Souls" at that time. A 100% "non-KISS" record for sure. It was dark, heavy (almost grungy) and fans never accepted that album very well (I found it fabtastic as Eric Singer and Bruce Kulick were playing great and Paul was not so "Paula" )

MOTLEY CRUE - when they launched "Motley Crue" with John Corabi singing critics were very very rough. Another record that had nothing to do with the band.

I guess that the problem Maiden faced was that XF and VXI still sounded a lot like Maiden ands Blaze couldn't fill Bruce's shoes in terms of singing. That sounded weird at least for ME.

Again. The band had to do their move during the mid 90s in a terrible time for Metal bands.

At least Maiden was lucky enough to get back from "almost ashes" when they regrouped as a 6 piece act. Brave New World just proves that they got back to Maiden...to the path they should've never left (in MY OPINION).

cheers
Marcus
 
You should remember that Maiden didn't change singers because they wanted a new direction - they changed singers because Bruce wanted to leave. Whether Blaze was a good replacement or not, has been discussed a lot before and we're still discussing it  :P

By the way - don't take this "ignorant wanker" thing too seriously - it was just part of a little train of thought I had to explain that when you say something harsh, you must expect to get some of the same back. Or, to put it another way; if you give out sarcasms, you have to expect sarcasms back - and if the harsh comments aren't sarcastic, then you must still expect sarcasm back, because then they are just harsh comments and people on this board don't like that. But if you think I just called you an ignorant wanker and nothing else, and that offended you - sorry.

InfiniteDreamer said:
I guess that the problem Maiden faced was that XF and VXI still sounded a lot like Maiden ands Blaze couldn't fill Bruce's shoes in terms of singing. That sounded weird at least for ME.
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Well, Blaze wasn't meant to fill Bruce's shoes in terms of singing. I don't think 'Arry's hearing is that bad, when they did auditions they of course noticed that Blaze was completely different, and for one reason or another they liked what they heard, and hired him. And yes, it sounded weird for me as well. The first Maiden albums I got were Powerslave, SSOASS, Piece of Mind and Somewhere in Time - as well as some downloaded songs from Dance of Death. Of course, when I got The X Factor several months later, it took time to get used to the different voice (and the very different mood of the album, with all the melodic intros and slower songs). And I fully respect that one who likes something else about Maiden's music, does not necessarily like that album.
 
InfiniteDreamer said:
BLAZE solo:

Silicon Messiah (2000) - 480
Tenth Dimension (2001) - 673
As Live As It Gets (2003) - 692
Blood & Belief (2004) - 1,499
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I live in North America, and I have never seen a copy of a Blaze album in a record store.  And I have looked in major record stores too.  These sale numbers don't represent a real marketing effort to sell the album in North America.  There never really was one, so only people who knew about Blaze's solo stuff and ordered it specifically would show up here.

Ardius said:
I thought the entire point of hiring Blaze was because he isn't a Bruce clone. It always seemed to me like Steve and the band were trying to go in a new direction rather than stick to something that got a bit tired.
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I also don't think Blaze is stretching his vocals in either album.  He pushes it to the limit, but if they had made, say, Sign of the Cross with Bruce, it would have gone a lot higher.  The problem with Blaze stretching his vocals was when they asked him, live, to do songs like Hallowed Be Thy Name, but made no adjustments to the way they played to suit his vocals.
 
EddiesWingman,

No hard feelings buddy !

I know that you all have discussed a lot about Blaze, Bruce, etc... I just wanted to make my point in a topic about the not so favorites.

It's part of game to read things that not everyone will have a 100% agreement about...like in the previous post that the gentleman considered "The Prisoner" and "Drifter" in the bunch of worsts  :mad:

But that's HIS opinion I will respect that !!!!

Cheers
Marcus
 
I almost fell off the chair in the middle of the office when i saw that Natalie's compilation contains Sea Of Madness and Still Life. Who cares? It's her choice to her ears. Some people would rather listen to James Blunt than Iron Maiden.

About Blaze, he sang really great on The X Factor and so-so on Virtual XI. VXI songs are more higher and more "normal Maiden" than deep dark TXF. IMHO, he was never good live. Bruce, who was inconsistent after 1983 and terrible after 1988 (until he departed), was better live, not judging the voice and technical capabilities. By judging situation, i heard Blaze on numerous bootlegs trying to reach high notes, failing, and hitting the wrong note. Bruce, in his bad nights, would hit the note but his voice would crack. Sometimes he just went for the exact note, one octave lower. Objectively it's better to reach and crack, than to miss.

I think that Blaze was hired (Mattos and White rejected, among others), because Steve knew TXF is going to be deep, dark and introspective record, and Blaze's voice fits better than any standard heavy metal singer type voice. The initial problems came when he needed to sing other songs live. The real problems came when VXI was made, it wasn't too suited for his voice.

So, from the beginning, it was clear that Blaze won't remain in Maiden for good, it might be such a moment for Steve to concieve a dark record, but Maiden wasn't gonna transform into depressive metal band.
 
I don't think (or at least I can't remember that) the music was written (or the "decision" taken to make a dark record) before Blaze joined.
 
Zare said:
So, from the beginning, it was clear that Blaze won't remain in Maiden for good, it might be such a moment for Steve to concieve a dark record, but Maiden wasn't gonna transform into depressive metal band.
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Again, I disagree, I stick by my opinion that Blaze was hired purely because:
1. He was completely different to Bruce.
2. He was/is a massive Iron Maiden fan.
3. Had taken stage for Maiden before (albeit briefly), and they knew him fairly well.
4. Wolfsbane were doing very well at the time, and he certainly knew how to be a frontman competently.

Though I will agree that Steve and Co were being a tad to ambitious with Virtual XI and Blaze's voice, it's not as bad some are making out.

From what I've heard from bootlegs, Blaze was fine live on his songs and certain Bruce and Paul songs. Some he just couldn't do (and shouldn't have had to) but I think singing his own material he did just fine, and in fact the live versions of The X Factor songs are 100 times superior, I mean Fortunes of War really improves a lot live. If only The X Factor could be re-produced by Shirley or Roy Z or someone.
 
Hey thanks InfiniteDreamer for putting up your reasons for your opinion, I really appreciate it. While I don't quite agree with you about Blaze's voice not being suited to where the band was going, I agree that there are certain songs live where Blaze's range really can't handle the notes. And as a frontman he has nothing to Bruce either. Still, I think he was very suited to The X Factor as well as to most songs on Virtual XI, although more sombre and heavier stuff seems to work best with his voice. At any rate, what's past is past and all in all I think Blaze was a good choice for Maiden. Keep in mind that it could have been much much worse.
 
Zare said:
I almost fell off the chair in the middle of the office when i saw that Natalie's compilation contains Sea Of Madness and Still Life. Who cares? It's her choice to her ears. Some people would rather listen to James Blunt than Iron Maiden.
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The same thing happens to me every time I see the Duellists on people's lists and it is frightengly (to me) often.
 
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