The wonders of the U.S education system

Onhell

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
I just need to vent this because it pissed me off EXTREMELY. First a little inside scoup on how the U.S "helps" the poor for all of you who don't know. The United State's welfare state is mean-tested which means you have to qualify to get help. In order to qualify you need to be REALLY poor, if you are not poor enough you don't get government help, and if you are rich you can afford private health care, for those stuck in the middle... well they're screwed.

Now, higher education in the United States aka college and universities are opened to everybody and anybody... who can afford them. The United states prides itself that anybody can have an education unlike in Europe where, since it is free or pay a ridiculously low tuition, it is selective and elitist. Yet the U.S is elitist as well because only if you can afford it you can attend. in other words, Europe rewards smart students, the U.S rewards Students with rich parents.

For those american students lucky enough to be really smart and not rich there are several ways they can pay for their astronomically high tuition:

1. Scholarships
2. Grants
3. Loans (both private and federal)

Scholarships are money given to students by rich bored people who feel like sharing their money because they have no better use for it or organizations that focus on helping minority groups. Grants is free money given to you by the government (really poor people are the usual recipiants). Loans are broken up into federal and private loans subsidized and unsubsidized. Banks are the originators of Private loans, you strike the deal with the bank personally, federal loans the goverment lends you the money and of course you have to pay it back, sometimes during the same school year and other until you graduate. Subsidize loans means the government will pay the interest on your loan so you only pay the money lent. Unsubsized means you pay the interest as well.

Finally we get to my gripe of the week. I was awarded two federal loans, one I have to pay the other one my mom has to pay for it. This semester I was awarded a scholarship because I rock hehe. I though awesome extra money! Well the University doesn't like the idea of "extra" money, it calls it "overawarding" and I have to "straighten" things out because I can't have that much money in help. EXCUSE ME? who the fuck are they to deny me any of the money that was awarded to ME by THE GOVERNMENT... not them and by scholarship.. again nothing to do with them?

Each loan I got was for $5,000 dollars and the scholarship was for $750 ( i know it isn't much but it at least covers books.) So the University sends me a letter saying that because of this "overawardment" they will withhold about (forgot exact figure) $860 from my loans to "even things out" How does taking away more money than what I was awarded "even things out"? They are stupid if they think i'm just going to lie down and take this.... damn I'm pissed. I was counting on that money as "extra" now i'm short 100 dollars! fucking assholes!
 
Similar situation happened to me last year man: I had already paid my tuition in full (I'm fortunate enough to be able to, I know very few are). The Uni sends me a letter saying that since I'm the awesomeest at what I do, I've been awarded a scholarship. Most scholarships and Government loans in Canada are given directly to the university in the student's name.
Unlike yout school, however, my uni decided that the extra cash was mine to use, so they just sent me a cheque for the amount. I was pretty impressed by that, actually.

Check with LC, though - he has a few horror stories about university administration dickwads.
 
I understand why you are pissed off. It's not fair to take away money that was awarded to you. Still though, if you're only short 100$, then I think you'r in good shape. I do agree though, the price for college is getting out of hand. I recently applied to three universities (Long Beach State, Fresno State, and CSUN), and my total was 165$ for applications alone. And if I do get accepted to any of those places, it is estimated that I will be paying around 5,500$ a year AFTER financial aid. That is so much, and these are Cal States that we are talking about, which are the most affordable univirsities around. But I do agree with what you said about the USA being elitist when it comes to financial status. For example, George W. Bush attended Yale, and we all know that Bush has the IQ of a child.
 
I had some problems with the university administration too. Every students who register at the ETS has to take a Math and a Physics. If someone failed that test, he has to take an easier course to be well prepared for the "normal" one. Long story short, I failed the Math test but I wasn't informed. When I found out, I went to see if I could be transfered from the Math 114 to the Math 115 class because I had attended to the normal class for all the term and I had good grades. Anyway, after meeting with a few people, it turns out they made some mistakes and they accepted to transfer me. While it's not as bad as you're problem, I was kind of nervous about losing what I had done up to that point.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Mario88+Dec 9 2005, 12:01 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Mario88 @ Dec 9 2005, 12:01 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I understand why you are pissed off. It's not fair to take away money that was awarded to you. Still though, if you're only short 100$, then I think you'r in good shape.
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yeah, it isn't that bad but considering I could (should) be up $750 being short 100 sucks ass
 
Onhell, if you want a real solution - come to Canada.

Fees for non-Canadian studnets here are about twice those citizens pay, but even then it's still less than even the cheapest American state uni.
 
How much are we talking here? In the state's out of state and international tuition is astronomical. for example, here in arizona residents pay $5,000 dollars per semester on average, out of state and international students pay $13,000!!!!
 
Onhell, this is unbelievable. It might be just the fact that I'm suffering and I'm angry, but if I were you, I would take this to the Constitutional Court, or even the Human Rights Court. This is just plain thivery!!!
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 9 2005, 04:53 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 9 2005, 04:53 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]How much are we talking here? In the state's out of state and international tuition is astronomical. for example, here in arizona residents pay $5,000 dollars per semester on average, out of state and international students pay $13,000!!!!
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I got to Acadia University, which has the highest tuition for undergraduate studies in the country. International (non-Canadian citizen) sutdent fees here are $11,936 per year, or $5,968 per semester. (Converted to US Dollars for your convienence!)


In other words, you're getting screwed.
 
Over here it's either 6300CD or 11000CD(I'm too lazy to convert it to US dollar [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ) for foreign students, it depends if you are exempted or not of additionnal fee.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Dec 9 2005, 12:22 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Dec 9 2005, 12:22 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Now, higher education in the United States aka college and universities are opened to everybody and anybody... who can afford them. The United states prides itself that anybody can have an education unlike in Europe where, since it is free or pay a ridiculously low tuition, it is selective and elitist. Yet the U.S is elitist as well because only if you can afford it you can attend. in other words, Europe rewards smart students, the U.S rewards Students with rich parents.
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That is not true. If it were, I wouldn't be at the Uni [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

This is only a half-joke, though. There are several universities in Germany where I cannot study what I want to study (which was the main reason why I had to move away from Hamburg) because of my average grade in my final exams at school (translated into American grades it would be a C, in Germany it is 3,3). However, this is reduced to universities with limited capacity and great popularity, such as Hamburg. In fact, I am now in one of Germany's best-reputed universities despite my poor school grades.

Apart from that, universities in Europe are being normed now. That means, the traditional German university system is being reshaped to the Bachelor/Master system. I am usually in favour of such general norms, especially if it is meant to promote European unity, but in this case, I oppose it. I prefer the German system because, well, it is what I am used to, as it is similar to the school system.
Another thing that is being changed in German is the fact that there will be no free university education any longer. Semester fees are being introduced all around the Federal Republic. I am in one of the territories which will see them introduced in a couple of years, other territories, such as Hamburg, have them introduced already. Compared to what Duke and LC have to pay, they are ridiculously small, though: € 500 per semester (that is about US$ 450). On the other hand, that does not include housing, books or transportation. It is basically just the fee you pay for going to university.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 10 2005, 06:10 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 10 2005, 06:10 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Another thing that is being changed in German is the fact that there will be no free university education any longer. Semester fees are being introduced all around the Federal Republic. I am in one of the territories which will see them introduced in a couple of years, other territories, such as Hamburg, have them introduced already. Compared to what Duke and LC have to pay, they are ridiculously small, though: € 500 per semester (that is about US$ 450). On the other hand, that does not include housing, books or transportation. It is basically just the fee you pay for going to university.
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Part of me wants to look at you sarcasticly and say "awwww, poor baby." THe other part laments the change in Germany's system. For every dollar a government puts into sending a worthy person to university, they will regain many more in the benefits that person will bring to society later on in life. Our politicians are far too myopic to think in these terms, sadly.

Granted, the federal and provincial governments in Canada DO subsidize universities, but not enough to stop them charging these fees. In Nova Scotia it's a particular problem. We're one of the poorest provinces in the country, with a very small population (around 1,000,000). However, we have many more universities per capita than almost any other place in the Western Hemisphere
Acadia, Dalhousie, St Mary's, Mount St Vincent, Cape Breton, King's, Ste Anne's, NSAC, AST, NSCADU, as well as the NS Community Colleges (a network of 12 large trade schools), and a private high school in Antigonish called St. Francis Xavier

In other words, we have very limited funding and MANY schools to help fund - which makes it hard to justify spending tax dollars on things only a select few get to attend. If you were an average working man who didn't enjoy the privlige of going to university, how would you feel if the government spent so much of your hard-earned tax dollars on what seems to be directly helping only a small percentage of the population? You'd much rather the money get spent on something like primary and secondary education or health care.

It's a sad cycle, I know.

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Edited to put the order of schools properly [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--][/span]
 
Duke, I'm not even complaining. I will be complaining if the lack of education policy and the dramatic fall of quality continues after the fees have been introduced. Just like the bus fees which rise every quarter of a year while the service quality falls (most recent example: A bus I needed to take today just did not come).
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Dec 10 2005, 09:10 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Dec 10 2005, 09:10 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]

Compared to what Duke and LC have to pay, they are ridiculously small, though: € 500 per semester (that is about US$ 450). On the other hand, that does not include housing, books or transportation. It is basically just the fee you pay for going to university.
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you're right that is ridiculously small, that is what most students pay just for books here in the States. In Arizona I pay $780 per class, full-time is four classes, plus the recreational center fees, the stadium maintenance fees, the radio station, etc etc etc.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Dec 9 2005, 04:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Dec 9 2005, 04:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Onhell, this is unbelievable. It might be just the fact that I'm suffering and I'm angry, but if I were you, I would take this to the Constitutional Court, or even the Human Rights Court. This is just plain thivery!!!
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Onhell, I agree with BA, you should take this to Court!!!
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Dec 9 2005, 03:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Dec 9 2005, 03:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Onhell, this is unbelievable. It might be just the fact that I'm suffering and I'm angry, but if I were you, I would take this to the Constitutional Court, or even the Human Rights Court. This is just plain thivery!!!
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Since Ace is from Romania, I won't hold it against him for being unfamiliar with the US court system. But to clarify some details:

There is no such thing in the US as a "Constitutional Court" or "Human Rights Court". There are instead six separate court systems:
Local (e.g. city / county) courts, both criminal and civil
State courts, both criminal and civil
Federal courts, both criminal and civil

Note that many of these systems share resources such as courtrooms, and at higher levels (as described below) all cases converge to Supreme Courts. The difference between criminal and civil court is that only the government can initiate cases in criminal court (where legal standards are stricter because punishments like jail are on the table). Also, losing a case in civil court doesn't mean you've been convicted of a crime. That can only happen in criminal court.

If Onhell really wanted to pursue this issue in the courts, he would sue the university in State-level civil court (since his university is a state-run institution). If he lost and appealed, then the case would go to the State Supreme Court. If he lost there and appealed again, it would go to the United States Supreme Court. Note that both of the higher courts could decline to hear his appealed case (effectively upholding the verdict of the lower court).

A federal court would likely refuse to hear Onhell's case because it's a state-level matter. But let's say, hypothetically, Onhell tried his luck in federal court and lost. If he appealed, the case would then be heard by a federal district court. I don't recall how many districts there are, but the most districts cover several states. If Onhell lost again in district court, then the case goes to the US Supreme Court.

Constitutional and civil rights issues are all pursued through these court systems. Which civil system you file your case in (local, state, or federal) depends on which law you're challenging. Ultimately, most constitutional and civil rights issues work their way up to the US Supreme Court, whose decisions are binding on all lower courts.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Dec 11 2005, 11:08 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Dec 11 2005, 11:08 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]There is no such thing in the US as a "Constitutional Court" or "Human Rights Court".
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To clarify this a bit, there is only one real Human Rights Court. It is called the European Court Of Human Rights and is situated in Den Haag (The Hague). There is also the International Court of Justice (aka "World Court"), also in The Hague- it is a UN institution. There is also a War Crimes Law in Belgium (which until recently allowed any Belgian to charge anybody whom he accused of a war crime- this policy was abolished when George W. Bush and Colin Powell visited the country) and an International Criminal Court (also in The Hague).

The most cited court is probably the International Court Of Justice. An American charging his country will have little fortune, because the US government does not accept this court.

Furthermore, this issue discussed here is not an issue that would be dealt with in this court. It is too petty for it, sorry to say that. This Court rather deals with (or should deal with) people like Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein and the likes.
 
Well, before this talk of courts and appeals and sueing, What I'm going to do first is talk to the University directly to see what the problem is, if they are just as stubborn, it is not the amount of money they are depriving me from, but the principle of depriving money to begin with.
 
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