The Transitive Property of Music Appreciation

[Genghis Khan]

This Dokken-thing has something to do with polls. I am not playing along but to me it sounds like a synonym for saying "I don't give a shit".

It's got to do with Dokken being one of the choices that Vortex has for best of/worst of polls.  Many people, myself included after listening to some of their songs, think that this choice was unusual to say the least.  

However, I think that Vala makes a serious post here, so let's give it respect.  (I didn't mean you Foro).

When I was a teenager and first started to think of ranking songs, I came up to the same question.  Originally, I thought transitivity is not needed.  Ranking songs hold a lot of variety of how one ranks them, and not all of them are rational.  Unlike math where dealing with numbers, a transitive relationship is easy to find, a song deals in a lot of emotion.  What I found that if I preferred Song A to Song B, I'd find common grounds to compare the songs, e.g. solos.  But if Song B is better than Song C, sometimes I came into conflict because I'd find that Song C was preferrable to Song A, for some strong singular reason.  Maybe Song C has better lyrics, but not that impressive otherwise. When I got older, I learned to rate songs overall, more rationally, so yeah, transitivity is a must.

However, when I'm just trying to enjoy the music, I find that using any sort of ranking ruins the mood and feeling of the songs.  Too much focus on such things is bad for the sustainable love of the music, IMHO.

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Haha, it's funny that you should mention this because that's exactly what I'm doing now I'm trying to rank my Top 150 songs by the band (I think they have 157 all in all, excluding covers) and rank their albums as well.

I've been at it for several weeks. I initally grouped their songs into high-level tiers... then more detailed tiers... then ranked those groups of songs within themselves... put all the groups together in order and now I'm in the process of tweaking the sequence of things

I'd love to see your results when it is all finished. 

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I don't know about you, but I find it strange to use logic and reason in what is ultimately a matter of emotions and holistic judgements.  And even if your reasoning goes something like "X has better melodies and lyrics, but Y has such a great riff that it's better", those are still emotional judgements upon which you base your reasoning.  

Overall, I find it a bit strange to forcibly rank and order songs; can't one acknowledge that the songs are equally good?  And for how long will a particular list last until one changes his/her mind? E.g. Before the Final Frontier tour, surely Blood Brothers (for most people) would have placed lower than now in a ranking of Maiden songs?

That was in essence my point.  When enjoying music, ranking is pointless.  But if one wants to rank, transitivity is a must.  In aestetics in general, emotions play a large role in determining one's preferences.

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

If one sticks to one ranking criterion, then transitivity is the only logical consequence.

Invader's example with Paschendale, Rime of the Ancient Mariner and Hallowed Be Thy Name shows that one does not necessarily stick to one criterion when one tries to rank songs in one's head. If one sticks to just one ranking criterion, be it lyrical depth, musical complexity, length of Adrian Smith solo, or percentage of songwriting credited to Nicko McBrain, then the ranking must retain transitivity to make any sense.

Now, since most criteria people use to grade music are highly subjective (and to a high extent based on emotions), how each song scores will change with time. This obviously means that on one day, Invader might prefer Paschendale to all other Maiden songs, but the next day he might prefer Hallowed - and yet another day he might prefer Rime.

This means that ranking songs is a very temporary thing. Still, I'd say that on a big scale, transitivity is obvious. In a case like the one laid out by Invader, I'd say one has to accept that one cannot pick a favourite from the three songs mentioned. One has to conclude that one likes them equally much. That is, Rime = Hallowed = Paschendale, to the desired number of significant figures 

 

[Invader]

Huh? But could you expain how this has happened? Which aspects of these songs rule in your first decision, and are later less important?

EW said it better than I could:

one does not necessarily stick to one criterion when one tries to rank songs in one's head. If one sticks to just one  ranking criterion, be it lyrical depth, musical complexity, length of Adrian Smith solo, or percentage of songwriting credited to Nicko McBrain, then the ranking must retain transitivity to make any sense.  Now, since most criteria people use to grade music are highly subjective (and to a high extent based on emotions)...

But, if you're interested, I can try to explain, though these kind of things are really hard to put on paper.  Paschendale > Hallowed because both songs have excellent lyrics (and similar, in a way: a dying man speaking) and are emotionally very intense, but Paschendale is slightly better at both categories.  Hallowed > Rime because it is more varied musically, I like the lyrics more (though both are excellent), and there is more emotion in the song.  But Rime was such a great live experience that I can not judge it over Paschendale (which I have not seen live), and the song easily gets me headbanging which Paschendale does not.  So, what EW said: different criteria when judging.

The other one, simplified a bit: The Evil That Men Do has better melodies than 2 Minutes, 2 Minutes has better lyrics than Trooper, and Trooper is more energetic than The Evil That Men Do.

 

[Forostar]

Thanks Invader, appreciated. A few things popped up to my mind immediately:

A. From what I am gathering, it looks like the following criteria are very important to you.
1. Have you witnessed it in concert? (This relates to energy)
2. How do you like the lyrics?
3. How do you judge its emotions?

B. Interesting that melody isn't a criteria in the first example (Rime, Hallowed, Paschendale), but I guess you find that these songs have other, more important qualities.
C. I am surprised you said Hallowed is more varied musically, than Rime. Rime contains a lot of rhythm changes, tempo changes, atmosphere changes, and there's lots of different riffs. I haven't counted it yet but all this should be more than in Hallowed.
D. One may wonder why Rime was such a great experience: have you realized that its power can also lay in the song (story, music, lyrics, you name it) itself, not only in its performance? There could be some hidden quality out there which you haven't mentioned yet, unless you mean its headbanging potential, or else its indeed the plain live experience.
E. About your 2nd example: I agree that TETMD is more melodic than 2 Minutes. I think 2 Minutes' lyrics go deeper than The Trooper's, though The Trooper's lyrics I find easier to sing along with, and they show the perspective of a fighting soldier, something Steve did very well, also in later songs. And I like its music (I love that galloping bass!) more, and find the riffs and the song overall more catchy, and I like Bruce's singing better as well. So this is for me a clear example that the intellectual content of the lyrics are of a lesser importance than the other qualities. The Trooper I do not find more energetic than TETMD but to compare these two is quite difficult for me because I love them both. In the end I guess I'll go for The Evil, but it was a tough call. Just like The Trooper, its music is very catchy but also more melodic. And that aspect, these lovely harmonies in the bridges and the solo are for me decisive. Hm the chorus rules too. Naturally I like it better than 2 Minutes as well: 1. The Evil, 2. Trooper, 3. 2 Minutes.

I didn't post this to say I know things better, I only wanted to tell how I esteem the way your choices work, and show how it works for me.

 

[Invader]

Foro, a few comments back:

A: Those are the ones that I mentioned in this case.  Emotion is very related to riffs and melodies, or rather, good riffs and melodies cause positive emotions, whereas bad or average ones less so.  I would also separate energy from live experience; Blood Brothers is not "energetic" like others I've mentioned, but it was one of my most memorable live experiences.

B: They're not exhaustive reviews.  Rime, Hallowed, and Paschendale all have great melodies and riffs, but they are all rather varied musically so it is hard to compare them in this dimension: there are too many melodies and riffs to compare, unlike the shorter rockers.

C: Rime is 6 minutes longer than Hallowed, nearly twice as long.  At least, Hallowed feels more varied in the time it uses.

D: I don't know what makes a song "click" live.  Rime was only amazing the second time round, Fear of the Dark the third, and Revelations the first, for example.  I didn't expect Dance of Death and These Colours to be as good as they did.  On the other hand, I expected eg. Wasted Years, Wrathchild, Can I Play with Madness, and Run to the Hills to be better live than they actually were.  On the other hand, some people have said that seeing Wrathchild live made the song so much better for them.  So live experience is probably the most subjective criterion of all. 

 

[Forostar]

What I do (and I reckon a lot of others as well) is adding different criteria (the strongest points of the songs) together, and I do that in all comparisons.
So, you've seen how many things I like in The Trooper, and most of these things I found better than in 2 Minutes to Midnight. Like this I'm building the total picture.

Sometimes a song has one amazing feature (e.g. the solos in Prodigal Son) and despite of it being "only" one feature, for me it makes the song stronger than e.g. Sanctuary or Iron Maiden, because these tracks lack enough qualities to be better.

Even though the solos in Prodigal Son themselves are better than in Prowler, I still like Prowler better because it has such thrilling energy and power, and it has less "boring" parts than Prodigal Son. So, when I'm comparing song X with Y I compare the strongest assets of the songs, and build a total picture, weigh everything up together. When I compare Y with Z I do the same, and when I do X with Z, again.

But the difference with you is that you are more busy with the live performances, expectations, and experiences.
Unless you have not seen it live -> then on the 2nd place comes lyrics and emotions. This is what I gather from your posts (plus older posts), and this is of course only an interpretation.

Foro, a few comments back:

B: They're not exhaustive reviews.  Rime, Hallowed, and Paschendale all have great melodies and riffs, but they are all rather varied musically so it is hard to compare them in this dimension: there are too many melodies and riffs to compare, unlike the shorter rockers.

What helped for me in liking Rime is the part after the calm part. That build up, when Bruce begins to sing, and how the instruments join, one by one, and then this acceleration (the drum fill), these riffs and solos. My favourite two minutes in all music I've ever heard.

What I try to tell is, that, for comparing, it doesn't matter if this song is long or not, this part is so fantastic (and many other parts as well), that it is an important feature to make this total picture again. Paschendale does not have a build up of tension like this. Paschendale does not have so many great riffs as Rime, it doesn't have so many tempo and rhythm changes. Paschendale has other qualities, but is not so varied as Rime. Rime has despite its length a lot of variation and strong parts, more than most other 9+ min. epics. Paschendale has some very intruiging lyrics (about a very intruiging topic) and without these I guess this song wouldn't get as much credit as now.