KidInTheDark666
What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine too
Yep, these are the most famous songs from both bands so it makes sense that you would recognise them.
The Greatest Metal Song Cup - Part II, Round 4, Matches 82-87
- Thread starter LooseCannon
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- gmsc
Septicflesh winning is tearing me apart.
Confeos
Game time started.
"The Thing That Should Not Be" is one of the lesser tracks on Puppets. I feel it kinda ruins the momentum and is quite plodding; I'm a huge fan of Lovecraft, but honestly, I think the lyrics could've been executed better. "More Than Meets the Eye" is another one of those songs I first heard when it came on as a random suggestion on Spotify, and boy, it kicks ass. Everything from the riff to the awesome vocals absolutely slays. Easy vote for Testament here.
"Dark Art" is fine, I suppose, though a little disjointed. It certainly didn't wow me. "The Killchain" has to be the best Bolt Thrower song in the cup so far - now that's a proper headbangin' riff! I'm completely sold on the heavy, mid-tempo groove, and starting to really dig Bolt Thrower, so of course they get my vote here.
It's not my favourite Sonata Arctica song by far, but "FullMoon", cheesy as the chorus is, is almost a classic at this point. "Hunting High and Low" might be as well (I don't know much about Stratovarius), but I found it incredibly meh. Sonata Arctica.
"No Love Lost" has a good groove, and that's about it. There's so much more going on in "Fields of Blood, Harvester of Hate", that I would much rather listen to it again. I'm not fully sold on either, though. Voting for Sentenced.
I thought "Lorelei" showed some promise initally, and the music is quite good throughout, but those vocals are so laughable. I mean, they're so amateurish. Horrible. I was also surprised by the low quality of the singing on "Ghosts", as Nick Holmes usually has a great voice, but it's still quite a bit better than Theatre of Tragedy, so Paradise Lost it is.
I really, really, really don't like Rage Against the Machine. Not one bit. There's a stripped down simplicity to the music that simply doesn't work for me; Tom Morello's quirky playing is often hit or miss, and the singer always sounds like a little child whining over being sent to bed early without dinner. Sorry. However, in this case, I have to admit that "Bulls on Parade" is a better tune than "Sabotage", even if it's not saying much. Beastie Boys has maybe one or two songs that are somewhat fun, if not particularly good, and this surely isn't one of them. I'd rather not listen to any of these again, but I'm throwing a reluctant vote for RATM.
"Dark Art" is fine, I suppose, though a little disjointed. It certainly didn't wow me. "The Killchain" has to be the best Bolt Thrower song in the cup so far - now that's a proper headbangin' riff! I'm completely sold on the heavy, mid-tempo groove, and starting to really dig Bolt Thrower, so of course they get my vote here.
It's not my favourite Sonata Arctica song by far, but "FullMoon", cheesy as the chorus is, is almost a classic at this point. "Hunting High and Low" might be as well (I don't know much about Stratovarius), but I found it incredibly meh. Sonata Arctica.
"No Love Lost" has a good groove, and that's about it. There's so much more going on in "Fields of Blood, Harvester of Hate", that I would much rather listen to it again. I'm not fully sold on either, though. Voting for Sentenced.
I thought "Lorelei" showed some promise initally, and the music is quite good throughout, but those vocals are so laughable. I mean, they're so amateurish. Horrible. I was also surprised by the low quality of the singing on "Ghosts", as Nick Holmes usually has a great voice, but it's still quite a bit better than Theatre of Tragedy, so Paradise Lost it is.
I really, really, really don't like Rage Against the Machine. Not one bit. There's a stripped down simplicity to the music that simply doesn't work for me; Tom Morello's quirky playing is often hit or miss, and the singer always sounds like a little child whining over being sent to bed early without dinner. Sorry. However, in this case, I have to admit that "Bulls on Parade" is a better tune than "Sabotage", even if it's not saying much. Beastie Boys has maybe one or two songs that are somewhat fun, if not particularly good, and this surely isn't one of them. I'd rather not listen to any of these again, but I'm throwing a reluctant vote for RATM.
DJMayes
Ancient Mariner
Regarding my power metal face off: I much prefer Stratovarius as a band to Sonata Arctica but I'm not too surprised by how it's going because I prefer FullMoon as well. Retrospectively I do wish I had gone for a less "safe" (recognisable) Stratovarius song though, if only to force you all to listen to another ballad.
Shmoolikipod
Stranger to the Light
Testament - didn't remember it being this good!
Septicflesh - epic. The Killchain is good but no more or less than other Bolt Thrower.
Sonata Arctica - we're back in full force with albums I didn't remember being good? This might be better than the White Pearl song. Hunting High and Low is fine. Guess that's what Kai Hansen stole for Follow Me.
Sentenced - would take more time to digest. No Love Lost is a weak link on Heartwork.
Theatre of Tragedy - felt better written than Ghosts. Loved the gothic sound.
Beastie Boys - both of those are very strong. The chorus of Bulls on Parade is weaker, but it has a surprisingly heavy outro.
Septicflesh - epic. The Killchain is good but no more or less than other Bolt Thrower.
Sonata Arctica - we're back in full force with albums I didn't remember being good? This might be better than the White Pearl song. Hunting High and Low is fine. Guess that's what Kai Hansen stole for Follow Me.
Sentenced - would take more time to digest. No Love Lost is a weak link on Heartwork.
Theatre of Tragedy - felt better written than Ghosts. Loved the gothic sound.
Beastie Boys - both of those are very strong. The chorus of Bulls on Parade is weaker, but it has a surprisingly heavy outro.
Magnus
Pica Serdica
Been trying to like Testament since last millennium. Still trying. The Metallica song is nothing to write home about either but, fuck it, memories and Lovecraft.
Would have happily voted for the Robert Lowth (Professor of Poetry) track on many other occasions but southern neighbours.
Finnish power metal band nominated by @DJMayes.
Once again, the Carcass track is one I'd gladly vote for in different circumstances. Thank you all guys for the appreciation given to Sentenced and Taneli Jarva.
Theatre Of Tragedy is decidedly not what I think a Norwegian metal band should sound like, as those of you familiar with my musical tastes might probably expect. Paradise Lost, on the other hand, do nothing for me, never have. See Testament above.
Beastie Boys, like so much other stuff from Popoff and other lists, shouldn't be in this game at all. But I really, really hate RATM with a vengeance, so, going full circle, voting for the thing that should not be once again.
Would have happily voted for the Robert Lowth (Professor of Poetry) track on many other occasions but southern neighbours.
Finnish power metal band nominated by @DJMayes.
Once again, the Carcass track is one I'd gladly vote for in different circumstances. Thank you all guys for the appreciation given to Sentenced and Taneli Jarva.
Theatre Of Tragedy is decidedly not what I think a Norwegian metal band should sound like, as those of you familiar with my musical tastes might probably expect. Paradise Lost, on the other hand, do nothing for me, never have. See Testament above.
Beastie Boys, like so much other stuff from Popoff and other lists, shouldn't be in this game at all. But I really, really hate RATM with a vengeance, so, going full circle, voting for the thing that should not be once again.
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
If you mean 4000 Rainy Nights, you should have gone for it - it was one of the last songs I eliminated from my nominations list to fit the required number and that might be one of my greatest regrets in this cup.
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
Funnily enough, I never was a big fan of The Thing That Should Not Be - it always felt really plodding to me (though not to the level of constipation that Leper Messiah achieves later on the album), stopping the momentum that started so well with Battery and Master... but honestly, relatively recently something clicked and I fell in love with the track. It still has the trademark Tullica melodies, they're just a bit more... drowned? Subtle? Don't know, but nowadays I could actually have the song on repeat - the prominent bassline is quite tasty yet ominous, the ascending guitar riff is cool, the jerky rhythmic feel is actually quite addictive, after you listen to the song enough times. And Lovecraft, heh.
Testament present their usual unassuming best... although wrapped in this "modern thrash" sound/production, that sounds rather sterile and annoying. At least I feel a certain oversaturation there.
Easy win for Tullica.
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I think I must have underestimated Septicflesh - I'm not sure why I remember the band as being really bad; this particular song was certainly quite intriguing, with industrial, death and doom mixing together with a bit of orchestral seasoning - I probably should hate this, but I don't. It has a certain gothic atmosphere that goes together well with the insane overwrought vocals and the Devin-style drum outbursts.
But then again, Bolt Thrower keep it simple, without any type of extravagant genre breaking and they deliver their best within their usual more or less pure death genre.
Fuck, I don't know. I guess, since they're losing, I should support Bolt Thrower, but don't make me think about it twice, I might change my mind.
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As for the next pair, I really, really love Stratovarius - they are one of my favourite bands, really. And I am currently on a Strato binge to boot. And yet. Not only is Ecliptica one of the best power metal albums in general (IMHO!), FullMoon is the pinnacle of that record and it was actually one of the songs I had in my shortlist of nominations for the cup - in the end I've decided to go with The Cage (which crashed and burned, but what can you do, I guess).
Just one thing - it's the smallest thing ever, but what I absolutely love about the track, even more than the silly "run away run away run away" which sounds like a pack of excited, but typically witless and silly doggos, think
well, besides that I admit that I like the absolutely marginal and stupid thing of how Tony joins together the two halves of the second verse with the vocal melody ("we're GONNA make the love compLETE tonight..."). It's just such a nice, poppy touch, little of itself, but makes the song complete for me.
And besides - loving Strato as I do... well, with all due respect, I've never been a fan of Hunting. Always felt it was one of their most overrated singles. The chorus is probably too cheery - which sounds weird coming from someone who's just endorsed Sonata Arctica, I know - but it sounds more like Freedom Call or something and I don't think it really fits Stratovarius. That said, the rest is really cool, I like the opening riff and the instrumental part especially, but still, I'm gonna go full Perrin and run with the wolves.
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Carcass are a legend, indeed, but apart from having to be respectful around them, I don't find them enjoyable all that much. Or, well, any more than any of their brethren. I actually even like No Love Lost - it has a much better sound than the opposition and wheyn they shut up and let it rip in the instrumental section, it's actually great. That said, Sentenced have worse sound, but better content, or at least a more interesting one, with them being this old school tech-death hybrid.
But I think I'm gonna surprise everyone - even myself - and go with Carcass here. I know, I know, but the song has better flow and over my two listens of each of the tracks, I think I warmed up to No Love Lost more. Also, maybe it's somehow forcing me to vote for the underdog, I don't know. But still, I can't help but feel the Sentenced song is cleverer, but the Carcass one is more well-wrought.
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In the next match, I actually like both bands. The Tragedy song has more of that retro-charm, the PL one is more annoyingly modern, but then again, the guitar lines and the melodies might be a tad stronger.
Dunno. Coin toss told me Theatre. The losing one is currently Theatre.
Theatre it is, but I'm fine with either winning.
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Oh, fuck. First of all, BB shouldn't be in the cup at all, but whatever. Second of all, I actually have spent a lot of time listening to hip hop (you know, your Kendricks and Busta Rhymeses, your Eminems and your Kid Cudis, your Kanyes and your De La Souls, your Biggies and your Lil Waynes, your Snoop Doggs and your Dres and some Public Enemies and Tech N9nes in between).
I understand it enough, I have my favourites, whatever. Yet I've never managed to get into Beastie Boys - that's one band that's just annoying, their raps are quite second grade, it just completely misses the mark with me. If you looked up "wigger" in a dictionary, these three Brooklyn gits would be pictured right next to it. This particular track is even more obnoxious than I'm used to, so that's a no-no from me.
I'm not a huge fan of Rage either, but at least it's more metal and the base is rather sweet, so...
Testament present their usual unassuming best... although wrapped in this "modern thrash" sound/production, that sounds rather sterile and annoying. At least I feel a certain oversaturation there.
Easy win for Tullica.
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I think I must have underestimated Septicflesh - I'm not sure why I remember the band as being really bad; this particular song was certainly quite intriguing, with industrial, death and doom mixing together with a bit of orchestral seasoning - I probably should hate this, but I don't. It has a certain gothic atmosphere that goes together well with the insane overwrought vocals and the Devin-style drum outbursts.
But then again, Bolt Thrower keep it simple, without any type of extravagant genre breaking and they deliver their best within their usual more or less pure death genre.
Fuck, I don't know. I guess, since they're losing, I should support Bolt Thrower, but don't make me think about it twice, I might change my mind.
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As for the next pair, I really, really love Stratovarius - they are one of my favourite bands, really. And I am currently on a Strato binge to boot. And yet. Not only is Ecliptica one of the best power metal albums in general (IMHO!), FullMoon is the pinnacle of that record and it was actually one of the songs I had in my shortlist of nominations for the cup - in the end I've decided to go with The Cage (which crashed and burned, but what can you do, I guess).
Just one thing - it's the smallest thing ever, but what I absolutely love about the track, even more than the silly "run away run away run away" which sounds like a pack of excited, but typically witless and silly doggos, think
well, besides that I admit that I like the absolutely marginal and stupid thing of how Tony joins together the two halves of the second verse with the vocal melody ("we're GONNA make the love compLETE tonight..."). It's just such a nice, poppy touch, little of itself, but makes the song complete for me.
And besides - loving Strato as I do... well, with all due respect, I've never been a fan of Hunting. Always felt it was one of their most overrated singles. The chorus is probably too cheery - which sounds weird coming from someone who's just endorsed Sonata Arctica, I know - but it sounds more like Freedom Call or something and I don't think it really fits Stratovarius. That said, the rest is really cool, I like the opening riff and the instrumental part especially, but still, I'm gonna go full Perrin and run with the wolves.
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Carcass are a legend, indeed, but apart from having to be respectful around them, I don't find them enjoyable all that much. Or, well, any more than any of their brethren. I actually even like No Love Lost - it has a much better sound than the opposition and wheyn they shut up and let it rip in the instrumental section, it's actually great. That said, Sentenced have worse sound, but better content, or at least a more interesting one, with them being this old school tech-death hybrid.
But I think I'm gonna surprise everyone - even myself - and go with Carcass here. I know, I know, but the song has better flow and over my two listens of each of the tracks, I think I warmed up to No Love Lost more. Also, maybe it's somehow forcing me to vote for the underdog, I don't know. But still, I can't help but feel the Sentenced song is cleverer, but the Carcass one is more well-wrought.
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In the next match, I actually like both bands. The Tragedy song has more of that retro-charm, the PL one is more annoyingly modern, but then again, the guitar lines and the melodies might be a tad stronger.
Dunno. Coin toss told me Theatre. The losing one is currently Theatre.
Theatre it is, but I'm fine with either winning.
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Oh, fuck. First of all, BB shouldn't be in the cup at all, but whatever. Second of all, I actually have spent a lot of time listening to hip hop (you know, your Kendricks and Busta Rhymeses, your Eminems and your Kid Cudis, your Kanyes and your De La Souls, your Biggies and your Lil Waynes, your Snoop Doggs and your Dres and some Public Enemies and Tech N9nes in between).
I understand it enough, I have my favourites, whatever. Yet I've never managed to get into Beastie Boys - that's one band that's just annoying, their raps are quite second grade, it just completely misses the mark with me. If you looked up "wigger" in a dictionary, these three Brooklyn gits would be pictured right next to it. This particular track is even more obnoxious than I'm used to, so that's a no-no from me.
I'm not a huge fan of Rage either, but at least it's more metal and the base is rather sweet, so...
____no5
Free Man
To be fair the link for Bolt Thrower was not working and this is a kind of Rule that I’ve established, if the link is not working and I don’t know the song, too bad, I vote for the other.
I bought a Bolt Thrower record as a teen, I don’t remember much but I was not too impressed for sure.
Detective Beauregard
Leviathan of Doggerland
The Thing That Should Not Be is a painfully average track for Metallica, despite the Lovecraftian lyrics. I'm also of the belief that the song is too long, as it should have went back to the chorus (or ended) after the solo, not back into another verse. However, this song influenced Metallica's bone-crushingly heavy but slow mid-tempo blueprint on much better songs to follow, including Harvester of Sorrow and Sad But True. Testament's tune is solid and kind of reminds me what Megadeth would sound like with a different vocalist (I hear Mustaine in the lines), but there's zero melody. Gotta give this one to Metallica.
SepticFlesh have quite the track here, with symphonic elements taking the forefront over the metal. I actually prefer the death metal vocals to the clean singing here, and the mix of styles is at the very least intriguing. Bolt Thrower's music is great, but as soon as those vocals start I check out. Easy vote for SepticFlesh.
Ah yes, a power-metal-off. I knew going into this that I wouldn't like the vocals - these wailing tenors with zero depth are really not my style - but I was pleasantly surprised by Sonata Arctica's offering. The song is just so catchy, and the vocals never reach the point of obnoxiousness. That chorus! I dig it. The Stratovarius track seems bland and watered down in comparison.
I don't know what I was expecting with a band named Carcass, but here we have it. This is some funny stuff. I love how the singer tries to be intimidating with his Gollum vocals in a cliché wooded area, while the guitar player rocks back and forth in a nearby field. I was hoping for more forest critters, though, as a raccoon or a squirrel would have really added to the humor. Sentenced have some great music here, but the vocals are terrible. Even so, the technicality of the music (that bass has to have at least 7 strings, right?) is more than enough to elevate them over the unintentionally hilarious Carcass.
Whatever gothic stuff is going on in these next two tracks is not my thing. I can appreciate some of it, but this isn't how I roll. Both tracks are straightforward with not nearly enough depth to the music to hold my interest, but I'll give the edge to Paradise Lost for the cool drumming and interesting guitar tone.
I've always disliked Rage Against the Machine. There's just something about them that screams "hey, look at me, I'm cool too!" Maybe it's my overwhelming distaste for rap metal, but I cannot get into these guys. I've heard a few of their songs that aren't bad, but this isn't one of them. Meanwhile, if RATM are rap metal, then the Beastie Boys are hip-hop rock, and for some unexplained reason I've always liked them. Sabotage is a great track, with heavier guitars than I remember and an intentionally hilarious video (the puppets flying to their deaths and "The Rookie" beating up the perp get me every time). It's not metal, but as I said in a previous post, I'll always vote for the better song - and this is a supremely easy vote for the Beastie Boys.
SepticFlesh have quite the track here, with symphonic elements taking the forefront over the metal. I actually prefer the death metal vocals to the clean singing here, and the mix of styles is at the very least intriguing. Bolt Thrower's music is great, but as soon as those vocals start I check out. Easy vote for SepticFlesh.
Ah yes, a power-metal-off. I knew going into this that I wouldn't like the vocals - these wailing tenors with zero depth are really not my style - but I was pleasantly surprised by Sonata Arctica's offering. The song is just so catchy, and the vocals never reach the point of obnoxiousness. That chorus! I dig it. The Stratovarius track seems bland and watered down in comparison.
I don't know what I was expecting with a band named Carcass, but here we have it. This is some funny stuff. I love how the singer tries to be intimidating with his Gollum vocals in a cliché wooded area, while the guitar player rocks back and forth in a nearby field. I was hoping for more forest critters, though, as a raccoon or a squirrel would have really added to the humor. Sentenced have some great music here, but the vocals are terrible. Even so, the technicality of the music (that bass has to have at least 7 strings, right?) is more than enough to elevate them over the unintentionally hilarious Carcass.
Whatever gothic stuff is going on in these next two tracks is not my thing. I can appreciate some of it, but this isn't how I roll. Both tracks are straightforward with not nearly enough depth to the music to hold my interest, but I'll give the edge to Paradise Lost for the cool drumming and interesting guitar tone.
I've always disliked Rage Against the Machine. There's just something about them that screams "hey, look at me, I'm cool too!" Maybe it's my overwhelming distaste for rap metal, but I cannot get into these guys. I've heard a few of their songs that aren't bad, but this isn't one of them. Meanwhile, if RATM are rap metal, then the Beastie Boys are hip-hop rock, and for some unexplained reason I've always liked them. Sabotage is a great track, with heavier guitars than I remember and an intentionally hilarious video (the puppets flying to their deaths and "The Rookie" beating up the perp get me every time). It's not metal, but as I said in a previous post, I'll always vote for the better song - and this is a supremely easy vote for the Beastie Boys.
All links work. Move to a country with free speech.
Well, for one thing it’s not like The Killchain is getting walloped. It’s pretty close. And I don’t really see a lack of reverence for Bolt Thrower. It’s up against tough competition and this forum has historically trended toward the more symphonic/epic extreme Metal of bands like SepticFlesh when extreme Metal is even being championed in the first place. I do agree for most metal circles this would be an upset, but it’s important to remember that a lot of Maidenfans members aren’t really that into extreme Metal, so a fusion with something else is almost always going to beat pure death metal.
____no5
Free Man
No link is working without VPN in the middle kingdom. And my server was in US when I tried.
DJ James
A coma stole my name.
Some quick thoughts while I’m stuck working on a Saturday:
The Thing That Should Not Be was better than I remembered. My criticisms for this song and that album as a whole still stand: it’s just too long. If they had shaved about 2 minutes off that song, I might even take it over Testament here. Master of Puppets is probably the most intriguing metal album of all time. It’s great - a borderline masterpiece. A PERFECT encapsulation of the type of anger and rage that heavy Metal brought in the 1980’s in the most LISTENABLE package. I think albums like Pleasure to Kill and even Peace Sells are better (subjectively), but Master of Puppets is such an enjoyable and easy listen. You don’t need to make excuses for the production or the band members getting off time because they’re just a couple of German kids that can barely play but want to play fast music - no, it’s ALL there with Master of Puppets. That being said, the self-editing problem with Metallica’s songs began with this album, and it’s plagued them ever since. Just because you are lauded CONSTANTLY as the greatest metal band ever doesn’t necessarily mean that every idea you come up with it great. I like Testament more and Testament’s song is a modern classic. Voting for Testament here.
Septicflesh was mildly surprising, I enjoyed the song a good bit. Still going with my own nominee in Bolt Thrower.
Full Moon was also awesome, but Hunting High and Low has been with me longer. Stratovarius here.
I like Sentenced more than Carcass BUT this particular Carcass song I find better than this Sentenced song. Different story if this was Wings or Capture of Fire.
Theatre of Tragedy was a pleasant surprise! Probably the greatest surprise of this game for me. I loved the backing female vocals in the chorus. They carried a very nice melody. I will be digging into this band further. Paradise Lost has always been a little boring to me. I liked Forever Failure for a bit though.
Last round: not a fan of Rage Against the Machine and for me there is only one TRUE metal band with RAGE in their name (take a guess). Sabotage pretty easily but I suspect Sabotage will get bounced pretty easily if it faces even slightly tough competition. Same goes for RATM.
The Thing That Should Not Be was better than I remembered. My criticisms for this song and that album as a whole still stand: it’s just too long. If they had shaved about 2 minutes off that song, I might even take it over Testament here. Master of Puppets is probably the most intriguing metal album of all time. It’s great - a borderline masterpiece. A PERFECT encapsulation of the type of anger and rage that heavy Metal brought in the 1980’s in the most LISTENABLE package. I think albums like Pleasure to Kill and even Peace Sells are better (subjectively), but Master of Puppets is such an enjoyable and easy listen. You don’t need to make excuses for the production or the band members getting off time because they’re just a couple of German kids that can barely play but want to play fast music - no, it’s ALL there with Master of Puppets. That being said, the self-editing problem with Metallica’s songs began with this album, and it’s plagued them ever since. Just because you are lauded CONSTANTLY as the greatest metal band ever doesn’t necessarily mean that every idea you come up with it great. I like Testament more and Testament’s song is a modern classic. Voting for Testament here.
Septicflesh was mildly surprising, I enjoyed the song a good bit. Still going with my own nominee in Bolt Thrower.
Full Moon was also awesome, but Hunting High and Low has been with me longer. Stratovarius here.
I like Sentenced more than Carcass BUT this particular Carcass song I find better than this Sentenced song. Different story if this was Wings or Capture of Fire.
Theatre of Tragedy was a pleasant surprise! Probably the greatest surprise of this game for me. I loved the backing female vocals in the chorus. They carried a very nice melody. I will be digging into this band further. Paradise Lost has always been a little boring to me. I liked Forever Failure for a bit though.
Last round: not a fan of Rage Against the Machine and for me there is only one TRUE metal band with RAGE in their name (take a guess). Sabotage pretty easily but I suspect Sabotage will get bounced pretty easily if it faces even slightly tough competition. Same goes for RATM.
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
Mate, there's, like, 204 of them
https://www.metal-archives.com/search?searchString=rage&type=band_name
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
DJMayes
Ancient Mariner
I was more referring to If The Story Is Over but 4000 Rainy Nights would've been an excellent choice too.
JudasMyGuide
Ancient Mariner
Also, whoever nominated the sole Moonsorrow track (it's gonna be in match 247), cheers. I wanted to include something, but I couldn't make it fit. Was spinning Kivenkantaja today in the car and it made me wonder if we have at least some representation in the cup.