The Greatest Metal Song Cup - Part II, Round 4, Matches 82-87

[JudasMyGuide]

I used to be a huge AC/DC fan, but over time I just completely grew out of it. Just... I don't know. Even the "big" songs off the "big" albums often do nothing for me nowadays. I really don't know why. Like, I get they're this archetypal hard rock band, but to me, it all just ... lacks something. I was listening to Rainbows debut today and I said this about it in the Now Playing thread

When I first heard this album back in secondary school, some twenty years ago (and I still remember precisely where and when), I was immediately convinced this was the greatest (hard) rock album ever. Twenty years later and having heard hundreds, if not thousands rock and metal albums in the meantime, my sentiments are still exactly the same.

I don't care he's been profaning medieval music and folk in something as blatantly shallow and commercial as Blackmore's Night, Blackmore's legacy is such that he's absolutely untouchable.

Maybe someone more eloquent or analytical than me can discern something from the contrast. Why Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow debut is the best album ever and AC/DC leave me completely cold?

Anyway, Thorn, well, I already wrote about it

Anyway, the opposing song is Thorn from Nightfall in Middle-earth. And it is a song that I genuinely disliked for quite some time. It always felt to me too brooding and dreary and worst of all - on the album it is sitting quite close to Noldor (Dead Winter Reigns), which I considered the superior and more memorable ballad for a long time. The songs are not entirely unsimilar and they are all packed at the beginning of the second half of the album, so the sequencing might not be the most fortunate.

And yet, as I was creating my nominations list, it suddenly clicked and I knew I have to pick this track.

I might have already written here about the fact how the recent re-read of The Silmarillion moved me and inspired me - it was also the first time I read it in the original English - and ever since then, Nightfall in Middle-earth, the album dedicated to that, has been an even more special treat than before.

Indeed, Time Stands Still (At the Iron Hill) is a deserved classic, but after reading how Fingolfin went to challenge the Satan himself, channeling his inner Oromë

"Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came."

suddenly the track packs an even greater punch. Same goes for the aforementioned Noldor, with visions of the Kinslaying and the crossing of the Helcaraxë vividly before my eyes.

So I guess you wonder - is it that? Is he championing Thorn because of the book?
Well, yes and no.

Thematically - and that was also one of the things that I used to find detrimental to the song - the song is from the sub-story of The Fall of Gondolin, when Morgoth captures Maeglin and tries to convince him to betray Gondolin and let it be destroyed. The "thorn" and the "edge of thorns" from the chorus are the thorns that hide the secret entrance.

But that's not really a reason to like the song now, is it? For one, of all the three great substories (Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Lúthien, Children of Húrin) the Gondolin one is definitely the narratively weakest and this is not even about the fight or destruction - this is more like a small vignette, unassuming in its scope. It's just a brooding ballad, isn't it?

But then it clicked. When I was reading The Silmarillion, I wrote here on the forum how I had completely forgotten how much relentlessly bleak the book was... but that's not entirely correct. The strongest emotion, the one Tolkien was obviously enamoured with, is the one of sorrow.

I personally am very much convinced that of all the Valar, it was Nienna who might have been Tolkien's personal favourite:

"Mightier than Este is Nienna, sister of the Feanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world."

And it is precisely this that Thorn captures and encapsulates like no other song on the album. The melodic line of the choir in the chorus is unbelievably wistful, the atmosphere is more or less ruminative, it is a song you have to progress to. I had to, at least. But it is no mean feat enough to try to cover the famous hard-to-read book filled with content lyrically - it's on another level to encapsulate the emotional (and to a degree, spiritual) takeaway I had from it.

That is more important to me than the haunting acoustic intro - again very atmospheric, full of nostalgia and yearning; it also reminds me of the fact this band covered Oldfield's To France (which is another song that isn't all too dissimilar to this one, I guess)... neither did I mention the fact Hansi shows the fullness of his range here, as at the beginning he sings very low (is that, like F2? Or lower/higher?), it sounds almost atypical... I didn't talk about the crunch of the riffs...

But honestly, on a purely personal level, apart from the above the song is also ultimately nostalgic for me - again, the melody in the chorus is very evocative of 90s-power-metal fantasy, or at least it sounds that way to me. It is the sunshine of of my boyhood, the time when fantasy was still naive and filled with Faërie, when the days were long and the Sun was shining yellow in a kookish, early-afternoon slant.

I have started to hear the song anew. It is quite likely that other people won't, but, you know... "there never was much hope. Only a fool's hope."

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A7x... well...

Avenged Sevenfold is one of those bands I'm periodically trying to get into... you know, because I feel I should, with their overall prestige and recognition... but just as periodically, I repeatedly fail to do so, because... well, they just sound really immature, I guess. The guitar harmonies are rather nice, the late Rev was actually pretty competent, but the sound of the riffs, the sound of the vocals, it just sounds like something you should grow out of, as a performer and as a listener. Also the chorus is more sugary than NSync. I won't say this sounds like something that should belong on the American Pie 2 soundtrack - and that one was pretty good for its time - but it's close.
So far, the only track by them I was genuinely close to liking was Nightmare ... and there they were trying to channel their inner Metallica as much as possible, to an almost ridiculous degree. But here?
I'd say the pars pro toto, the significant indicator would be the fact the (arguably) most well-known member of the band calls himself - still, after all these years - Synyster Gates. Yes, with the ypsilons and everything.

I still fail to feel any different. This sounds very much like the mallcore crap I was purposefully avoiding like plague in the 00s. I'm trying, I really am.

Instead I will throw a vote to the underdog here and go with Arcturus here, because while this certainly isn't my favourite track by them, overall the vibe and the intent are much more my jam.

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My Previous Post on How I Learnt to Love Bon Jovi but Hate This Song

And then there's Bon Jovi. You know, first of all, Bon Jovi might possibly be my biggest "guilty pleasure" - meaning the band I don't necessarily respect musically (apart from the undeniable penchant for melody in both songwriting and the guitars and Bongiovi's quite admirable pipes), and yet which I loved since I was a kid, I can enjoy even now and I take much more interest in than I probably should. I don't mind they started out in glam (New Jersey is probably my peak decadence - an album I wholeheartedly love from start to finish, inane as it might be), I don't mind their switch into "spiritual housewife rock" in the 90s, I don't mind they became the geezers beloved by youngsters on the turn of the millennium (It seems to me rather bizarre that the crowd that partied to You Give Love a Bad Name and the crowd that partied to It's My Life are more or less a generation apart - and I was, at times, a member of the latter), I didn't mind they turned to this Americana/country/whatever they're doing now.
In fact, this very song might be the first rock song I remember hearing as a kid, it was either that or Aerosmith's Eat the Rich - it was the first song on their best of album Crossroads

which was, along with Aerosmith's Get a Grip the first CD I learned to put on myself when I was 2? 3? Not sure, nonetheless the song still brings back memories of the earliest days of my childhood, these urexperiences that create a rather incomplete and fleeting tapestry, as they are cherished for their rarity.

So, that's it, then, right? It's Bon Jovi all the way, right? Don't even need to listen to the Skid Row track.

Well, not exactly.

See, the song brings back memories, but I never voted purely on nostalgia. I love Bon Jovi, but I find their biggest hits kinda overplayed and this one in particular... didn't age well for me. Partially, it's the production (again, on New Jersey I would find it somewhat more palatable, it's the mid 80s that I find most challenged in this regard), partially it's the gung-ho chorus, partially it's the talk box...

...and laddys, since you started bringing lyrics into it, well, this is one of the tracks I can't not notice the lyrics myself.
I mean, Bon Jovi were always this kinda dumber and less poetic variation on Springsteen - and I think it was quite intentional, because the themes, the fact you call your biggest album New Jersey, the fact you borrow the melody of The River for Born to Be My Baby... it's just all too much, to borrow the quote from George Harrison - but with this track, it reaches its peak. Well, this one and the "bonus" song Someday I'll be Saturday Night, which they released only on the aforementioned best of album.

You know, the poor couple, down on their luck, trying to get by, living on a prayer, you know... but it's duuuuuuumb. It's a chestnut, it's tired, hackneyed, clichéd, it's like a food bite that's been in too many mouths. And it's mostly the execution, not the idea - the aforementioned River by Springsteen is more or less thematically identical and it genuinely might be among my top 10 tracks of all time. I don't even like Springsteen much anymore, but that sentiment still stands. Bon Jovi not only are much more on the nose, less poetic, more didactic... but they were never really believable. They always felt like a manufactured band, even though they weren't. Springsteen, now a lot of his street machismo just as much as his older, more "spiritual" self of the wise elderly American stateman were just as much an act and were also obnoxious, but he's much more believable. When his voice cracks during that "Now those memories come back to haunt me" during that

"But I remember us riding in my brother's car
Her body tan and wet down at the reservoir
At night on them banks I'd lie awake
And pull her close just to feel each breath she'd take
Now those memories come back to haunt me
They haunt me like a curse
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true
Or is it something worse
That sends me down to the river
Though I know the river is dry
That sends me down to the river tonight"

you have a tendency to believe it. It feels vivid, it feels like something that happened to someone. The Bon Jovi song hasn't happened to anyone, definitely not any "Tommy" and "Gina".

(BTW I already mentioned this is one of the problems I have with certain Dream Theater lyrics - however nice it may be they are spreading the awareness about certain mental diseases, apart from Portnoy's 12-step-suite, which is at times maybe a tad too much journal-like, their songs always feel as if someone took a lecture book or an encyclopedia and went through it in verse form.

I mean, holy schmoley, Trucci, could you be somehow more on the nose in your description of a panic attack?

"Why do I feel so numb
Is it something to do with where I come from
Should this be fight, or flight
I don't know why I'm constantly so uptight"

I think some of the blokes in the back row might have missed the message!)

In short, this is a singer-songwriter song (and not a particularly good one), performed by One Direction. Please, don't.

vs the member-nominated and much better (let alone more metal) Death track. I really hate the anti-harsh vocals bias on this forum, sometimes.

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I respect Tool and should probably like them more than I do. There are songs I really like and in general, I respect the thing they do, especially Carey, it's just I can't help but feel most of their music sounds like a soundtrack for a Berlin darkroom.
Purple's debut is far from my favourite by the band and still sounds way too typically 60s, but Hush is very memorable, it brings me memories of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and it has both Lord and Blackmore and besides

With the chorus, it sounds like a jammier version of Moody Blues of all things

so call it a boomer's choice, but it wins by default.

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Rammstein, well, again

Feuer Frei happened to be my first acquaintance with Rammstein, because of the connection to the film xXx (which is interspersed with the band performing in the music video), which I actually went to see in the cinema. And much as I am not a Rammstein fan nowadays, it is certainly not wholly appropriate marriage between the two. The film was stupid, teenage, forgettable. Rammstein are more high-brow - usually - and definitely deserve more love than the former. And yet...

German is a funny language. It can be undescribably beautiful

Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Sarastro Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr:

it can be hilarious

Mach es sehr schnell
Rein und raus
Magisches schwein!
Bis es spritzt, spritzt, spritzt, spritzt, feuer!

and I'll give it to Lindemann he can somehow manage both, and sometimes both at the same time.

And it gives a certain ... detachment from the text as well. I mean, when he sings ein Funkenstoß in ihren Schoß, you at first wouldn't probably even think he was accused of sexual assaults, right? Until you translated it.
They can often be poetic and transgressive, like true poètes maudits... well, except for the moments when they have "Bang Bang!" for a chorus, I guess.

But the slick decadence is only in their lyrics. The music is really not up to par. I think it is best expressed with the fact someone calls their style tanz metal. It's like a slightly more guitar-oriented Prodigy. Whom I've seen live, mind you, and lived to tell the tale and it was even enjoyable ... at the festival when I was already halfway to Shane McGowan.
It just lacks... don't know, "meat". It sounds... empty in a way. Like a pop track dragged through a nu metal filter ... and not a particularly good pop track at that. It was the dog's bollocks when I was 14, but not anymore.

I don't particularily care about either, but I'm voting for Meshuggah as the underdog and to spite this forum's extrememetalophobia.

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Members over list, the weather outside says Kampfar besides, Damage has terrible intro and Dyer's Eve is better anyway and also

to spite this forum's extrememetalophobia.

 

[Shmoolikipod]

Thorn could be the richest BG song harmonically, truly magnificent. I like Sin City too but it's main advantage here is the old-school vigor, Thorn smashes it.

Looked at the votes and almost gouged my eyes out, I thought this is that god-awful abomination "A Little Piece of Heaven" sorry to whoever nominated it. Afterlife is good. Nevertheless, Arcturus still wins, mostly because of band bias, and I also like the singer more.

Livin' on a Prayer is a deserving hit, 1,000 Eyes is a gem from Death's best album. Either one is fine so I'm going with my biases once more, Death.

Am I really going to vote for Hush over The Pot? I can't believe it either, The Pot is a one of a kind rollercoaster, but Hush is classic, I didn't even know I know that song. Hush before I convince myself otherwise.

This forum needs to djent it more. Everything in Future Breed Machine is more alive and intense than German PPAP. Even if you don't dig Meshuggah, the solo alone should make you vote for it.

I thoroughly enjoyed Rekviem, but I haven't fully digested it I don't think. I liked the atmosphere a lot. Damage Inc.... (Would you put 3 or 4 dots there?) Like the entirety of MoP, it rarely does anything for me. Basically what Judas wrote about AC/DC I guess. Today was different, maybe because I tried playing (on guitar I mean) some Metallica lately. Maybe drop the maybe, I felt it affect my listening experience. I'll go with Kampfar I guess, Damage Inc. has always been a weaker MoP track anyways.

 

[____no5]

I would do this if I had a record of who voted where. Otherwise I can only see where the imbalance is but not who participated in it.

But why not letting it be and save yourself the hassle? If someone voted for both songs it’s still equal no?

 

[LooseCannon]

But why not letting it be and save yourself the hassle? If someone voted for both songs it’s still equal no?

Because it low key pisses me off. The whole point is to listen to new songs, and evaluate them against other songs you may or may not know.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Blind Guardian's worst song would still be more metal than all of AC/DC. Also, Thorn is a good song.

Of all the bedroom black metal musicians, Arcturus certainly is one of them. On paper, Afterlife should be the superior song. But...everything about it just rubs me the wrong way. Once again, I cannot stress enough how much I hate M. Shadows' voice. His vocal lines here are so disjointed, it just makes no sense. Every new vocal section sounds completely disconnected from the previous, to the point where it ruins any cohesiveness within the instrumental. I do not like Arcturus, but I cannot in good faith vote A7X.

Once again contradicting my first vote, Livin On A Prayer just rules. I continue to just not get Death.

Hush is a classic. The Pot is hands down my favorite Tool song.

Rammstein wins over Meshuggah.

Damage Inc is incredible. What an album closer! I do actually like Kampfar, but it's no contest for me.

 

[Black Bart]

Blind Guardian's worst song would still be more metal than all of AC/DC.

(I like Blind Guardian, though )

 

[Magnus]

oops sorry Judas.

I continue to just not get Death.

A healthy approach I guess, and I'm absolutely not making the obvious joke here.

 

[Confeos]

"Thorn" is not exactly my favourite Blind Guardian song, but it's still superior to most AC/DC songs.

Look, even if I will never be a fan of Avenged Sevenfold, I can appreciate them being pretty skilled musicians. But they are really terrible songwriters. "Afterlife" admittedly isn't as bad as the horrible trainwreck that we had some time ago in the game ("A Little Piece of Heaven", I think?), but it still feels so disjointed, both vocally and musically. Arcturus is a breath of fresh air in comparison; just a great tune with a great atmosphere.

I will be the first to acknowledge that "Livin On a Prayer'" is a phenomenal glam rock/metal song. That said, I'm absolutely voting Death, because I love Death.

Another song from overrated Tool that doesn't go anywhere versus an early Deep Purple classic? The choice has never been clearer.

Rammstein are infinitely more fun than Meshuggah.

I remember "Rekviem" impressed me a lot the last time it came up in the game, and I'm finding myself really enjoying it once again. And since I've always considered "Damage Inc." the weakest track on MoP, I have no problem voting for the supposed underdog here. Kampfar.

 

[Midnight]

I didn't have enough time to listen to most of these songs, so I blindly voted for the underdog in most matchups. There were a few, however, where I'd listened to both songs.

• Thanks, @JudasMyGuide, for bringing up a Blind Guardian track I'd overlooked on its album. Thorn is lovely and affects me more than the AC/DC song does. If the AC/DC song was Rock 'n' Roll Damnation, I'd have a tougher time deciding, but this one is decidedly less fun.
• "What the FUCK is Bon Jovi doing in the metal song cup?" was my first reaction to seeing this poll. I like Death, and while 1000 Eyes isn't one of my favorites on Symbolic, it's a damn good song. I'd probably choose to listen to Livin' On A Prayer over Death, but I wanted to vote for the metal song.
• The Pot is metal, Hush isn't. I like both - maybe The Pot a little more (my goodness, that intro drum fill).
• Future Breed Machine is truly fucked thrash. The opening of the song, with the beeping giving way to the slamming riffs, is one of my "greatest metal moments", and it contributed a lot to why I picked this song over Rammstein.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

Thanks to all the people voting for Thorn, it's really personal for me and I was worried the song would be gone in the elimination round.

Also, I don't know if anyone mentioned it - nine days ago we had an anniversary! 185 pages, wow.

 

[Magnus]

Someone didn't bother to vote in one of the matches so I hope Death vs BJ is a draw currently.
And sorry again Judas.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

It's alright. I did vote for Arcturus, though

 

[Mosh]

Dang I keep missing rounds. I would have voted for the A7X song FWIW.

 

[Mosh]

I also would have voted for 1000 Eyes. Seriously, Living on a Prayer? Come on now.

Also The Pot over Hush. That song has grown on me a lot recently, really great groove and a solid Maynard performance. Hush is not really a Metal song and kind of mediocre even stacked against other songs of its time/genre. Oh well.

 

[Magnus]

Someone didn't bother to vote in one of the matches so I hope Death vs BJ is a draw currently.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

View attachment 38807

I can't be the only one, can I?

"Nobody's gonna take my Mum
I fell out of her on the ground
Nobody's gonna know my Dad
He left faster than the speed of sound..."

 

[Jer]

Thanks to all the people voting for Thorn, it's really personal for me and I was worried the song would be gone in the elimination round.

Should’ve been, it was up against my Sacred Outcry epic that even you said was a 9.5+/10!

 

[LooseCannon]

Votes were removed from 5 matches this round due to a poster's inability to follow the rules. This has moved Death vs Bon Jovi to a tie.

Looks like Blind Guardian left some thorns around sin city for Australians to step upon. In the battle of "Bands whose names start with the letter A" we have a tie. It's also a tie between two of the most diametrically opposed songs I've seen in this tournament to date. Deep Purple hushes the pot, which, I could have made a hush puppy joke but we're not going back. Rammstein fires freely on Meshuggah's machine. Finally, Metallica's got a business, and business is good.

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Part II, Round 4, Matches 22-27
​

Group Stage - Round 4	Match 22​	A Real Dead One Division​
Megadeth - Wake Up Dead	vs.​	Dokken - Mr. Scary​
Popoff 500	Nominators​	@Jer​
1-0-0, 2 pts, +4	Record​	0-0-0, 0 pts, +0​
Youtube | Spotify | Amazon	Links​	Youtube | Spotify | Amazon​

Group Stage - Round 4	Match 23​	The Book of Souls Division​
Megadeth - My Last Words	vs.​	Ratt - Lay It Down​
Popoff 500	Nominators​	Popoff 500​
0-1-0, 0 pts, -10	Record​	0-0-0, 0 pts, +0​
Youtube | Spotify | Amazon	Links​	Youtube | Spotify | Amazon​

Group Stage - Round 4	Match 24​	Be Quick or Be Dead Division​
Ensiferum - Treacherous Gods	vs.​	Metallica - The Unforgiven​
@Poto	Nominators​	Youtube 50​
1-0-0, 0 pts, +8	Record​	0-0-0, 0 pts, +0​
Youtube | Spotify | Amazon	Links​	Youtube | Spotify | Amazon​

Group Stage - Round 4	Match 25​	Andy Taylor Division​
Symphony X - Rediscovery, Pt II	vs.​	Guns N' Roses - Nightrain​
@Stardust	Nominators​	@The Sentient​
0-1-0, 0 pts, -3	Record​	0-0-0, 0 pts, +0​
Youtube | Spotify | Amazon	Links​	Youtube | Spotify | Amazon​

Group Stage - Round 4	Match 26​	Nicko McBrain Division​
Faith No More - The Real Thing	vs.​	Life of Agony - This Time​
@MindRuler	Nominators​	Rolling Stone 100​
0-1-0, 0 pts, -23	Record​	0-0-0, 0 pts, +0​
Youtube | Spotify | Amazon	Links​	Youtube | Spotify | Amazon​

Group Stage - Round 4	Match 27​	Paschendale Division​
Opeth - The Drapery Falls	vs.​	Linkin Park - In the End​
@JudasMyGuide	Nominators​	Youtube 50​
0-1-0, 0 pts, -5	Record​	0-0-0, 0 pts, +0​
Youtube | Spotify | Amazon	Links​	Youtube | Spotify | Amazon​

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Easiest votes ever for 2x Megadeth, Metallica, Symphony X, and Opeth. I'll also give this one to Faith No More, despite the weird vocals.

 

[Jer]

Easiest votes ever for 2x Megadeth

I’m surprised that you found “Wake Up Dead” vs. “Mr. Scary” to be quite so easy when the former borders on being an instrumental, but is noticeably more repetitive and doesn’t reach the same heights as the Dokken track, IMO. I’d think this would merit at least a single head scratch before making the incorrect choice!