The German Thread

[Perun]

Today is the 9th November, perhaps the most fateful date in German history. I don't know how much this is realised or even known outside of the country, but some of the most defining events in recent German history happened on this day. A chronology:

9. November 1918: Wilhelm II, emperor of Germany, abdicates. Just hours apart, Philipp Scheidemann and Karl Liebknecht announce that Germany is a democracy, although both have different definitions. Scheidemann, the social democratic chancellor who stands on the balcony of the Reichstag building, proclaims a parliamentarian republic -or bourgeoise democracy- with strong ties to the old empire. Karl Liebknecht, a socialist, proclaims the "Free socialist republic of Germany". Scheidemann's idea wins, but not after civil-war like circumstances.

Philipp Scheidemann proclaims the Weimar Republic to a crowd at the Reichstag Building in Berlin.

9. November 1923: Along with several comrades, Adolf Hitler tries a military coup on the government in Bavaria, Munich. After bloody gunfights with the local police, Hitler is arrested and jailed. In his captivity, Hitler writes Mein Kampf.

Hitler and his supporters prepare for storming the Bavarian parliament in Munich.

9. November 1938: All across Germany, a pogrom against the Jews takes place. Up to 30,000 Jews are arrested and sent to concentration camps, 200 synagogues and countless Jewish stores and households are destroyed by nazi officials and local residents. Many consider this the darkest day in German history. The day is known as the Reichskristallnacht (literally, "Imperial crystal night"), a euphemism in reference to the shattered windows of the synagogues.

Spectators watch a synagogue burning in Essen.

9. November 1989: An East German minister announces that from this minute on, every citizen of the German Democratic Republic is free to leave the country at will. Moments later, the checkpoints on the Berlin Wall are overcrowded with East German citizens trying to get out on the one side, and West German citizens welcoming them on the other side. The fall of the German Democratic Republic is initiated, and almost a year later, on 3. October 1990, the country is reunited.

Passengers of an East German Trabi passing through a checkpoint are greeted by West Berliners.


Due to the events of 1918 and 1989, many Germans argue that the 9. November should be declared Germany's national holiday, but usually this is neglected with reference to what happened in 1938, making every celebration of this day a very controversial thing. If anything, this is the unofficial holocaust and partition memorial day.

On this occasion, I am starting this topic in which I'd like to know what other members of this community think about Germany. In your opinion, how do you identify Germany? What does Germany stand for? What is the first thing you think about when you hear the word "Germany"? Would you say you have a positive or negative idea of Germany, and why?
I will ask some more specific questions in this thread later on, but for now, please try to answer those.

 

[rolpol]

I love Germany!

I have been to Berlin four times already (will be going again in March), also to Frankfurt a couple of times and to Lubeck as well. I even went with my in-laws for a Christmas trip somewhere on the Rhine in 06. I have found people in Germany to be terribly polite but very distant, and they can become irritated quite easily, which is just like me! I feel right at home in Berlin and am really trying to learn German better!

My first thought about Germany is usually either Paulaner, Schneider Weisse, Weihenstephaner, or about cocktails on Oranienburger Strasse...

But seriously, I did spend a long time being predictably English about Germany before I stated studying History at university. Now I regard Germany as being a place where the Greens first got mainstream political power, and where freedoms are respected more highly for having had to win them back again (and again), as well as being part of a terrifying series of conflicts, hot and cold, from 1914-1991.

But the German football team is seriously flukey, how they ever got to the final of the 02 World Cup is beyond me!

Lastly, partly because I love reading John Le Carre, I tend to know more about Berlin than of Germany as a whole.

There are plenty of my father's generation (he was born in '48) who believe that the reunion of the 'two Germanies' shouldn't have been allowed. I don't think that prejudice has been passed on to my generation very strongly though, we were more raised on the Cold War idea that there was a 'good' Germany, (West) and a 'bad' Germany (East).
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Now playing: Sacred Reich - War Pigs
via FoxyTunes

 

[LooseCannon]

I don't see why you can't honour the bad as well as the good in a single day.  In Canada, most people know that July 1st is Canada Day, our national holiday.  What people don't know is that July 1st is Memorial Day in Newfoundland.  On July 1st, 1916, the Royal Newfoundland Regiment was destroyed in 3.5 minutes during a walking attack on German machine guns in Beaumont-Hamel, France.  Legend says the Germans were so sad with it that some of the machine gunners cried with the necessity of mowing down hundreds of men.  To this day, Newfoundland hasn't recovered from the loss of their best and brightest.

So it is a day of mourning and a day of partying in Newfoundland, and the crazy Newfies manage it both.  I think that Nov. 9th could be remembered the same.

 

[Perun]

I have been to Berlin four times already (will be going again in March),

Let me know, I'll show you a lot of places much better than Oranienburger Straße! I'm glad there's someone here who loves my hometown almost as much as I do.

But seriously, I did spend a long time being predictably English about Germany before I stated studying History at university. Now I regard Germany as being a place where the Greens first got mainstream political power, and where freedoms are respected more highly for having had to win them back again (and again), as well as being part of a terrifying series of conflicts, hot and cold, from 1914-1991.

That is a very unusual point of view, for a non-German or a German. To make it more abstract, how would you relate the history of Germany to the general idea of Democracy?

Lastly, partly because I love reading John Le Carre, I tend to know more about Berlin than of Germany as a whole.

My experience is that whatever happens in Berlin is happening in Germany as a whole. Think about it: The war and near-total destruction, the partition, the student revolts, the Cold War frontline, reunification and now the painful progress of mending two vastly different parts of a country together. And that's just the headlines. It all happened in Germany, and it all happened, sometimes more radically, in Berlin.

 

[Onhell]

I dream of one day going to Germany. I can quasi speak German and most of my favorite philosophers and Metal Bands are German. Needless to say I think of it constantly... Great country. They should have picked the 5th of November for all their historical activities though

 

[rolpol]

Let me know, I'll show you a lot of places much better than Oranienburger Straße! I'm glad there's someone here who loves my hometown almost as much as I do.

That is a very unusual point of view, for a non-German or a German. To make it more abstract, how would you relate the history of Germany to the general idea of Democracy?

That's a deal!

You know, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and I keep getting drawn to the long list of attempted revolutions in Germany; the two that stand out for me in terms of Democracy are 1848 (when of course there technically wasn't a Germany) and 1918-1919, (where women were allowed the vote and a Proportional Representation system for voting was created) as these two were at least partly about having a democratic choice.

And the other aspect of German democratic history is, of course, the struggle to reclaim democracy (1945-49 in FDR, 1953, 1989 in DDR)

What muddies the water for me is that many of the other attempted revolutions were about circumventing democracy in the name of ideology or mere power.

I was nosing around the net for more information and found http://www.questia.com/library/book/the-democratic-movement-in-germany-1789-1914-by-john-l-snell-hans-a-schmitt.jsp, which looks interesting


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Now playing: Pantera - Revolution Is My Name
via FoxyTunes

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

I ... want ... Bratwurst! By the way, I have a couple of German colleagues here at the university. They're not at all living up to the stereotype who is barking while he talks and demands ORDNUNG all the time. They're both mild-mannered and often arrive late in the morning 

 

[Forostar]

I'll answer the questions later but already a quick reaction:

From all these events, the following is remembered the most in the Netherlands. Remembered in the sense of gatherings, speeches and such. Many of us know that this particular date was the beginning of the mass persecution of the jews in Europe. With all respect, personally I don't think that something of this gigantic scale (millions of perished people) can't be compared to the loss of one military regiment, be it Canadian, Dutch or German.

If some Germans rather like to forget this pitchblack page of the past, fine for them. But partying at the same is something else. It's a step further. Anyway, I reckon that other countries will continue to remember this day, whatever Germany does. But I rather see Germany not partying on this day, which is of (at least) European importance. These words are purely an individual opinion, so please take a not too big offense.

9. November 1938: All across Germany, a pogrom against the Jews takes place. Up to 30,000 Jews are arrested and sent to concentration camps, 200 synagogues and countless Jewish stores and households are destroyed by nazi officials and local residents. Many consider this the darkest day in German history. The day is known as the Reichskristallnacht (literally, "Imperial crystal night"), a euphemism in reference to the shattered windows of the synagogues.

Spectators watch a synagogue burning in Essen.

 

[MisterAJ]

I ... want ... Bratwurst! By the way, I have a couple of German colleagues here at the university. They're not at all living up to the stereotype who is barking while he talks and demands ORDNUNG all the time. They're both mild-mannered and often arrive late in the morning 

Dude, don't forget about the beer, man... 

And I have had the same experience with Germans when I went to the University... I meat lots of nice people. (Like you, P...)

And what Nuclear Blast alone has done not just for German metal, but metal from all of Europe, should qualify for some kind of medal... or an award, or something...

a quick reaction:
From all these events, the following is remembered the most in the Netherlands. Remembered in the sense of gatherings, speeches and such. As many know here, that date was the beginning of the mass destructions of the jews in Europe.

Having grown up in a part of Norway that was completely scorched (every single house), I share some of those ghost from the past, but that part of the 20'th century's history is still firmly
embedded into the collective minds of most Europeans, including Germans!!! (and others, of course, just wanna stick to topic here)

Let's just say it like it is: World War II was as bad as it's ever gonna get without us stupid humans managing to destroy this entire fucking planet...

We survived, although severely injured, World War I...
We survived, although severely injured, World War II...
We will not survived World War III...

(Just read trough what I wrote, and Yeah: that was depressing...)

So let's get on to something more cheery:

Obviously, 9. November isn't going to go away.

Should it be Germany's national holiday..?  mmmmm... as you said, could give the wrong impression, so to the
whole Germany's national holiday-thingy, I'm just gonna say: If it ain't broke, why fix it..? Does the national holiday you have
collide with something else memorable, like the Qing Dynasty naval commander Shi Lang reaching Taiwan (under the Kingdom
of Tungning) to receive the formal surrender of Zheng Keshuang and Liu Guoxuan after the Battle of Penghu...?

Unless that is the case, let's try something else for 9.nov. 

Like... 20'th century history day, since all these events happened in the 20'th century..? and not only that, they almost happened from the very beginning to the very end... 

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

I just wonder why, if October 3rd was the day when Germany was officially reunited, this isn't the national holiday? Since the 9th of November marks the Kristallnacht I see why your country don't celebrate this day, as it would probably provoke many other European countries. I have the impression that many Germans still feel a kind of collective shame for what happened prior to (and during) WWII, and therefore don't want to do anything that can provoke bad feelings in the rest of Europe. However, my German colleagues don't have any problem with discussing WWII-related topics. Like many others who are in their 20s or early 30s they have lived most of their life in the modern, unified Germany - I guess the Third Reich and WWII, as well as the Cold War, are becoming distant enough for this generation to discuss it without getting fired up.

And MisterAJ, I don't forget about the beer. The Germans certainly can brew beer. Erdinger ... mmmm! I am becoming thirsty.

 

[Perun]

I just wonder why, if October 3rd was the day when Germany was officially reunited, this isn't the national holiday?

Just a quick note here- it is. 3. October is Reunification Day. The discussion is about whether the fall of the Berlin Wall is more significant than the act of reunification itself. I'll reply to the rest in this thread later.

 

[Forostar]

Discussing and remembering can be very different (and independent) matters, but by not remembering the Kristallnacht, the discussion about this event might diminish. The less we remember, the more we forget. The more we forget, the less we discuss.

Now the questions:

1. In your opinion, how do you identify Germany?
2. What does Germany stand for?
3. What is the first thing you think about when you hear the word "Germany"?

I hope it's OK if I group these questions and give one answer.

Germany, often, if not always associated with WWII. That’s one of my thoughts, but I also think different (without the war in my mind):

Powerful Neighbour (meant positively). Metal. Calm atmosphere. Less emotional people (at least from the outside), different humor (I can’t explain it well but I feel it’s different from the Dutch). What I find interesting is that Germany is for the Dutch the most popular country for vacations (many years it was France).

Back to WWII: In the last let’s say 20 years I find that Germany (out of all countries) has dealt the best with WWII. A lot of Germans try to find out what their grandparents did in the war. More openness, no more “Wir haben es nicht gewusst” (imo the most disgusting sentence ever uttererd in the 20th century), no more taboo. A lot of allied countries are behind. Their reflection on their own part is mostly positive only, and very simple. We were good, Germany was bad. Allied Governments still have to recognize their own war crimes. They have to get rid of their taboos and stop telling just one side of the story. Thank God there are historians who do tell WWII from several points of view and not just one. But they are rare.

So in the shadow of WWII, I really think Germany is doing great, though Perun just informed us about the Kristallnacht, so I wonder what the future will bring.

What do I not like? Germany does not seem to be very eager to help people in need (military-wise) in other countries.

In short, I think positive about Germany when I see how they deal with WWII.
I think more negative about Germany when I see how they deal with current foreign issues.

 

[Perun]

OK, now for a more detailed reaction.

rolpol:

You know, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and I keep getting drawn to the long list of attempted revolutions in Germany; the two that stand out for me in terms of Democracy are 1848 (when of course there technically wasn't a Germany) and 1918-1919, (where women were allowed the vote and a Proportional Representation system for voting was created) as these two were at least partly about having a democratic choice.

I don't quite agree there. The 1848/49 revolution is often cited as a democratic revolution, but that's not quite correct. While there was indeed a very strong democratic movement, the primary goal was to establish a German nation, as a constitutional monarchy. The best proof, in my opinion, that any sort of republicanism was at best a secondary goal, is that the entire thing was given up after the Prussian King denied the offer to become an all-German monarch. Most Germans were then satisfied when the local kingdoms (Prussia, Bavaria et al) installed parliaments, and this principle was carried over to the Reichstag in 1871.
It was therefore a real revolutionary move to get rid of the Kaiser in 1918, but this had very little sympathy in the population. As much as the Germans rejected the war towards the end, only very few were actually opposed to the imperial system, because loyalty was considered a chief German virtue. Therefore, one of the main problems of the Weimar Republic was that it was considered injustice by many, and most political parties considered any cooperation with it as a temporary solution for the sake of stability and order, at best. Till the end, many considered bringing back the Kaiser merely a matter of time.
Germany really only started becoming a democracy after 1949, and it took more than a decade to place it in the hearts and minds of the people. The first time everybody, including the governing body, realised that the system was working and here to stay, was not before 1962, when an assault on the freedom of press by the government led to open protest by the people (see here).

And the other aspect of German democratic history is, of course, the struggle to reclaim democracy (1945-49 in FDR, 1953, 1989 in DDR)

The struggle for democracy in the DDR was certainly a remarkable event, but unfortunately, many East Germans now regret what they did and want the DDR back. Talk about dealing with history!

Foro:

From all these events, the following is remembered the most in the Netherlands. Remembered in the sense of gatherings, speeches and such. Many of us know that this particular date was the beginning of the mass persecution of the jews in Europe. With all respect, personally I don't think that something of this gigantic scale (millions of perished people) can't be compared to the loss of one military regiment, be it Canadian, Dutch or German.

If some Germans rather like to forget this pitchblack page of the past, fine for them. But partying at the same is something else. It's a step further. Anyway, I reckon that other countries will continue to remember this day, whatever Germany does. But I rather see Germany not partying on this day, which is of (at least) European importance. These words are purely an individual opinion, so please take a not too big offense.

This year was the 70th anniversary of the Reichskristallnacht, and as with all years preceding it, it got major publicity. In fact, it was the only event of those I mentioned earlier that was being talked about, and for as long as I remember, it has always been the main even associated with this date (even the opening of the Berlin Wall beats it), so you don't have to worry about it.

Powerful Neighbour (meant positively).

I wonder, is Germany considered a major influence in The Netherlands? As in, can you feel any sort of German domination anywhere?

Metal.

Indeed, some of the best metal bands are from Germany, and there is a very vibrant metal scene in nearly every big city.

Calm atmosphere. Less emotional people (at least from the outside),

These are factors I've never noticed that way. Can you name any specific examples?

different humor (I can’t explain it well but I feel it’s different from the Dutch).

Germans don't really have a sense of humour. It's an old cliché, but when watching German comedy shows on TV, I really sometimes get that impression. Especially when comparing it to British humour, for instance. Germans always either play it too safe, or go too far for something to be funny. Plus, it's always the same old jokes and stereotypes. There are a few really good German humourists, but they are very rare.

What I find interesting is that Germany is for the Dutch the most popular country for vacations (many years it was France).

And that's why Germans keep making jokes about the Dutch and their trailers

Back to WWII: In the last let’s say 20 years I find that Germany (out of all countries) has dealt the best with WWII. A lot of Germans try to find out what their grandparents did in the war. More openness, no more “Wir haben es nicht gewusst” (imo the most disgusting sentence ever uttererd in the 20th century), no more taboo. A lot of allied countries are behind. Their reflection on their own part is mostly positive only, and very simple. We were good, Germany was bad. Allied Governments still have to recognize their own war crimes. They have to get rid of their taboos and stop telling just one side of the story. Thank God there are historians who do tell WWII from several points of view and not just one. But they are rare.

The way of dealing with the Third Reich is indeed exemplary. Every school class is required to have visited a concentration camp site, for example. The amount of literature about German companies and their role in the Third Reich is remarkable. If one thing, Germany has excellent and dedicated historians.
Unfortunately, other eras of the past don't get that much attention. The first World War is getting very little public attention. But what is worse is that nobody has a clue about how to deal with the DDR, see above. Many East Germans are being nostalgic about it, because of the high unemployment and poverty rates and huge social and economical problems in the east. Leftist politicians are trying to whitewash the DDR, claiming that it wasn't all that bad and much is being misinterpreted. Nobody seems to remember that members of the political opposition were jailed and that refugees were shot.

What do I not like? Germany does not seem to be very eager to help people in need (military-wise) in other countries. Sometimes I don’t understand this almost “Russian” unwillingness.

Although I share your opinion, I will play the advocatus diaboli for now.
First of all, there have been instances of the German military being engaged in humanitarian missions. See Somalia, Mozambique, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan or the Congo. They have not always done as much as they could have, but it's not like they did not do anything.
Germans are very reluctant to use their military because of their bad experiences with it. There is also no tradition of military missions, because prior to 1990, the Allies did not permit it. So the Germans are still rather uncomfortable with it, because they are not used to geopolitical sovereignity, as weird as that may sound.
Moreover, there is a huge obstacle with foreign Bundeswehr missions- the parliament. In Germany, every mission has to be approved by the parliament. Since such missions are always subject to huge controversy in society, there is typically one side approving of it and one side opposing it. Therefore, the lack of Bundeswehr mandates is not always attributable to a general unwillingness of the Germans, but instead to party struggles.
Germany is also trying to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council, and is participating, in major roles, in most important diplomatic initiatives to solve international conflicts.
So again, it's not like Germany is not doing anything, but it's still busy removing the many obstacles that are in its way.

I still agree with you. For a country that is both among the wealthiest and the most populous in the world, Germany is doing very little.

 

[LooseCannon]

Germany is also trying to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council, and is participating, in major roles, in most important diplomatic initiatives to solve international conflicts.
So again, it's not like Germany is not doing anything, but it's still busy removing the many obstacles that are in its way.

I still agree with you. For a country that is both among the wealthiest and the most populous in the world, Germany is doing very little.

If Germany becomes a permanent member of the UN Security Council, it will no longer be able to do UN-sanctioned peace keeping missions, since those jobs are left to the minor nations.  One of the reasons why Canada, Sweden, etc. have built up a reputation around it.  Quite frankly, Germany's not militarily powerful enough to join the UN Security Council as a permanent member.  If anyone should, it's India.

 

[Forostar]

Is military power the prime condition to join as a permanent member?

edit:

I wonder, is Germany considered a major influence in The Netherlands? As in, can you feel any sort of German domination anywhere?

Not really a domination, but there is a stable relationship, economically and politically. I guess we'll support eachother in case a next cold war will come. I hope that Germany's relation with Poland will grow stronger. That relation comes from both sides of course. I know that there's still a lot of mistrust among Poles, but I expect that relations should grow because both countries are in the EU. I might be terribly wrong but I have the idea that Germany is less distant towards Russia, compared with Poland. In case of a next cold war (which I really expect) that might cause a strange friction, and (again) a difficult position for Poland. The Dutch government is also quite "friendly" with Russia, probably because of economical reasons.

Indeed, some of the best metal bands are from Germany, and there is a very vibrant metal scene in nearly every big city.

Last Sunday I went to the village of Niederkürchten, not far from the Dutch town Roermond. Overthere, one of the guitar players of After Forever works in a rock club called Pitch Black, they hosted a fanclub-meeting. The atmosphere was really comfortable! Some of my favourite bands come from Germany: Helloween, Gamma Ray, Iron Savior, Grave Digger, Blind Guardian, Running Wild..

These are factors I've never noticed that way. Can you name any specific examples?

Maybe it's because the Dutch live so close together, at least where I live, but somehow I have the idea that people can be irritated by eachother in e.g. public transport. The Dutch tend to be pretty direct to other people. It has advantages but it can be annoying as well. Perhaps I don't know the Germans well enough, but they seem to be more calm, compared to where I live.

Germans don't really have a sense of humour.

Actually, this is really what I wanted to say!! No kidding. There are exeptions of course, but I totally agree.

And that's why Germans keep making jokes about the Dutch and their trailers

Heh, no problem, we keep making jokes about the Germans digging deep holes in our beaches.

The way of dealing with the Third Reich is indeed exemplary. Every school class is required to have visited a concentration camp site, for example. The amount of literature about German companies and their role in the Third Reich is remarkable. If one thing, Germany has excellent and dedicated historians.
Unfortunately, other eras of the past don't get that much attention. The first World War is getting very little public attention. But what is worse is that nobody has a clue about how to deal with the DDR, see above. Many East Germans are being nostalgic about it, because of the high unemployment and poverty rates and huge social and economical problems in the east. Leftist politicians are trying to whitewash the DDR, claiming that it wasn't all that bad and much is being misinterpreted. Nobody seems to remember that members of the political opposition were jailed and that refugees were shot.

Slowly WWI is getting more interest in the Netherlands. More books, more people start to learn about it.
I can imagine the DDR is a difficult topic. My parents liked that part of Germany the most when cycling through it, on their way to Krakow.

Although I share your opinion, I will play the advocatus diaboli for now.
First of all, there have been instances of the German military being engaged in humanitarian missions. See Somalia, Mozambique, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan or the Congo. They have not always done as much as they could have, but it's not like they did not do anything.
Germans are very reluctant to use their military because of their bad experiences with it. There is also no tradition of military missions, because prior to 1990, the Allies did not permit it. So the Germans are still rather uncomfortable with it, because they are not used to geopolitical sovereignity, as weird as that may sound.
Moreover, there is a huge obstacle with foreign Bundeswehr missions- the parliament. In Germany, every mission has to be approved by the parliament. Since such missions are always subject to huge controversy in society, there is typically one side approving of it and one side opposing it. Therefore, the lack of Bundeswehr mandates is not always attributable to a general unwillingness of the Germans, but instead to party struggles.
Germany is also trying to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council, and is participating, in major roles, in most important diplomatic initiatives to solve international conflicts.
So again, it's not like Germany is not doing anything, but it's still busy removing the many obstacles that are in its way.

I still agree with you. For a country that is both among the wealthiest and the most populous in the world, Germany is doing very little.

But it looks like things are getting better and better.

This is an interesting topic! An eyeopener for us and (perhaps) good to know for you what we know about your country.

 

[LooseCannon]

Is military power the prime condition to join as a permanent member?

Absolutely, considering the five current permanent members are the five most powerful nations in the world, and that the only time we made a switch was because one nation had become weak while another had supplanted it.

 

[rolpol]

The struggle for democracy in the DDR was certainly a remarkable event, but unfortunately, many East Germans now regret what they did and want the DDR back. Talk about dealing with history!

All very interesting stuff Perun, I suppose revolutionary theory and democratic practice are impossible to reconcile.

But regarding the DDR isn't it at least partly the case that unemployment in the old East is still very much a problem, and that this has led to an exodus of young women to western Germany for jobs? I seem to remember someone quoting a ratio of 5:1 male to female in some towns, which seems quite extreme... Plus there's the Ossie-Wessie lack of mutual understanding as well. When I went to the DDR museum in Berlin one curator said they were trying to stop the Wessies assuming the Ossies were all backwards...

 

[MisterAJ]

I have the impression that many Germans still feel a kind of collective shame for what happened prior to (and during) WWII, and therefore don't want to do anything that can provoke bad feelings in the rest of Europe. However, my German colleagues don't have any problem with discussing WWII-related topics. Like many others who are in their 20s or early 30s they have lived most of their life in the modern, unified Germany - I guess the Third Reich and WWII, as well as the Cold War, are becoming distant enough for this generation to discuss it without getting fired up.

My impression as well, and it kinda stands to reason:

The country went from being a dominant force on the international stage, to being occupied by foreign powers,
cut in half as a punishment for their sins, and it would take nearly 50 years to get back together.

That kinda thing forces a certain level of honesty about certain facts on most people...

Is openness the best way to deal with this? absolutely.

But it'll take another generation before the stigma disappear from the collective consciousness...

Unless some other country starts doing the same mistakes acts of horror and starts building bloody concentration camps,
and starts filling them with one ethnic group or another, and others deemed "undesirables"...

"If" that happens, and "if" one atrocity after the other comes out into the open as the inevitable result of such a camp,
then that countries is very likely to "inherit" that stigma when it's all said and done...

(provided there are anyone of us left, that is... if there aren't any, the subject is mute...)

 

[rolpol]

The country went from being a dominant force on the international stage, to being occupied by foreign powers,
cut in half as a punishment for their sins, and it would take nearly 50 years to get back together.

That kinda thing forces a certain level of honesty about certain facts on most people...

I agree, Stalin was responsible for far more deaths than Hitler, but he never lost a war. Germany is confronting its history in a way that other countries with dark pasts (including the UK as well as Russia) have failed to do.

 

[MisterAJ]

I agree, Stalin was responsible for far more deaths than Hitler, but he never lost a war. Germany is confronting its history in a way that other countries with dark pasts (including the UK as well as Russia) have failed to do.

Yeah, those who get away with it never have to face the music...