The Catholicism thread (Popes, Clothes, Buildings, Theology, Media...)

JudasMyGuide

The incorrigible papist
So, on the occasion of the 266th Pope being elected today, I've decided to start this thread instead of the apparently purely papal older thread The Pope Is Dope. I would like this one to be for all things Catholic, that is, not just popes and worldwide politics, but also potential questions regarding theology, cute buildings anyone might come across and even Catholic media (yes, including The Lord of the Rings and associated stuff, because first:
quote-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-of-course-a-fundamentally-religious-and-catholic-work-unconscio...jpg

and second: I picked JRRT as one of my Patrons Saint for my baptism, so I reserve the right to yap about him as much as I'm able to.)

I wanted to start this thread because as the resident combination of 1. Catholic, 2. being pretty devout about it, 3. adult convert, 4. (lay) theologian with actual degree (although only bachelor's at the moment), 5. amateur art critic and historian, 6. being pretty passionate about everything I like and everything I do, 7. having a certain way with words, despite not being a native speaker,

I feel the proper person to kinda manage this, in case anyone is interested. I mean, I'm willing to try and answer or at least discuss pretty much anything that is said in bona fide, and maybe even quite a bit beyond that. Just don't troll, please.

(I expect @Onhell who - if I recall correctly - wanted to be a monk once upon a time, to participate and be able and willing to answer just as much, despite him being more lapsed nowadays, but you know what they say, Semel Catholicus – semper Catholicus)

Anyway, to return to today's news, I'll quote what I wrote in the US Politics thread:


An American Pope being elected this year in particular was on nobody's bingo card, I guess.


Yeah, he's more of a moderate, if anything. I think he's a great choice, regarding the US, actually. First US pope, yet a rather anti-Trump pick of sorts.

Just a guy named Bob from Chicago, innit?

and

I mean - and I'm double posting intentionally, to dramatically keep the while it took me to realise it - this is absolutely brilliant. US Catholics having their own American Pope who spent most of his life taking care of the poor in Peru is just genius.

BTW, the previous Leo, Leo XIII (who must have been an inspiration) actually released Rerum novarum, one of the first social encyclicals (and a rather early pro-social documents in general). Yet he was orthodox, an intellectual and a Thomist. I see a potential for crossing the divides here.

Once again, I think an American pope is a big deal, methinks. Over a billion (some say a billion and a quarter, others a billion and a half) people are Catholic, all over the world. Their head now is American. I mean, what's that over being a US president to a measly 340 million or so citizens, amirite? :D


P. S. -
(BTW, atheists are more than welcome too. I was an aggressive anti-theist, once, and I still pride myself in being able to "get" both sides, kinda. And I would definitely think of myself less if I wasn't able to explain myself to a secular mind, I guess)
 
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My kneejerk reaction is that this seems like an indication that Francis was quite successful in restructuring the church. There were enough Francis appointed cardinals that they were able to fairly quickly reach a majority for someone who was put in the position by Francis to be a potential successor. I think this is a good thing for the church and a good thing for the world. The last thing we needed at this point in time was for the church to also take a turn toward fascism and power hungry politics. If Leo is a continuation of the Francis doctrine, and if there needs to even be a pope, this is a good thing imo.
 
All due respect, I feel this is one mistake Americans (and their media especially) often make, meaning theology and politics aren't always the same. Like, whatever the "Church fascism" would look like, it would be very different from any type of secular fascism and besides that, I don't think any candidates were really inclined towards that, except for maybe cardinal Dolan and even then, a. not sure how much of that stroking Trump's balls is a pose and a clever tactics, b. literally no-one wanted him as a Pope anyway.

Or to be more precise

Francis was quite successful in restructuring the church
for the church to also take a turn toward fascism and power hungry politics

Putting away "fascism", not sure what it would mean in this context, since the Church is dispersed in every continent, in hundreds of countries, but a genuine question instead - how would you define such restructuring? Meaning, what do you mean by that? I can answer particular specifics, whether the Church (and Leo in particular) would fall within that or not.
 
As an atheist, with all respect, this will be my contribution to this thread:

That's catchy af.

However, are you sure you didn't want to put this here?




(BTW, atheists are more than welcome too. I was an aggressive anti-theist, once, and I still pride myself in being able to "get" both sides, kinda. And I would definitely think of myself less if I wasn't able to explain myself to a secular mind, I guess)
 
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Nice thread, I’m not a follower of a religion but I like to talk about religion.
A religion is a system, not the essence of one’s belief. For Christians there are many branches but Christ is just one. My idea is just follow /pray to the source, instead of following the representatives.
Anyway, for my reference I’ll link here some previous discussions that may continue here in due time.
In the meantime I’m revising again the replies from @JudasMyGuide and @Onhell

https://forum.maidenfans.com/threads/religious-beliefs-of-iron-maiden-fans.61236/post-1036964
 
All due respect, I feel this is one mistake Americans (and their media especially) often make, meaning theology and politics aren't always the same. Like, whatever the "Church fascism" would look like, it would be very different from any type of secular fascism and besides that, I don't think any candidates were really inclined towards that, except for maybe cardinal Dolan and even then, a. not sure how much of that stroking Trump's balls is a pose and a clever tactics, b. literally no-one wanted him as a Pope anyway.
Theology and politics are the same thing in much of America, despite The Constitution stating they shouldn't be.

I don't want to speak for Mosh, but I think the point is not that the church itself would become fascist, but that the actions of the pope have widespread influence over Catholics at large. (Though if we're gonna nitpick there's a pretty good argument that the majority of organized religions are inherently fascist, but that's a different topic for a different day...) Catholics and political conservatives are often one and the same and share many of the same values, so electing a new pope right now who is markedly less progressive in his views would embolden those countries that are actively turning towards fascism.
 
Also, I'd say the viewpoint that Catholics can't vote for Trump because it goes against their convictions is pretty naive. Not to generalize over a billion people, but religious folks aren't necessarily known for following everything their scripure says, nor for living according to their scripture. Otherwise we'd have to have a serious discussion about eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics.

In fact, plenty of Catholics support Trump:

Most major religions are based on certain views and traditions cultivated over centuries, if not millennia. Those largely tend to align with the same values conservatives try to uphold, there is an inherent overlap. Then we have single-issue voters, who might vote for Trump because the Dems are too pro-choice on the topic of abortion. That single stance overrides all the other negatives that a candidate like Trump (or a party like the GOP) might stand for.

Religion and politics have been intertwined forever and that certainly hasn't changed, despite what we'd like to claim.
 
This answer kinda grew in its making, so I encourage @Mosh to take this as an elaboration towards him as well, to see where I'm coming from.

Theology and politics are the same thing in much of America, despite The Constitution stating they shouldn't be.

Well, if that is the case (and I somewhat doubt this interpretation), then the Constitution then declares something that literally can't be done. People will always want to put ethics into law (it's its primary goal) and morality/ethics is a form of theology/belief, even if atheists tend to think that it's not.

Law should prohibit murder, right? But why? Why shouldn't, say, honor killing be allowed or even embraced, if many people agree it is the right thing to do? You won't find an answer to that that wouldn't come out of your own presuppositions and preconceptions. And that's a good thing.

If theology and state were separate, I wonder if you even had a Constitution. To quote John Adams

We had no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Let's see how democracy survives in a majority-secular countries and for how long. But that's besides the point.)

I don't want to speak for Mosh, but I think the point is not that the church itself would become fascist, but that the actions of the pope have widespread influence over Catholics at large. (Though if we're gonna nitpick there's a pretty good argument that the majority of organized religions are inherently fascist, but that's a different topic for a different day...) Catholics and political conservatives are often one and the same and share many of the same values, so electing a new pope right now who is markedly less progressive in his views would embolden those countries that are actively turning towards fascism.

And again, I ask in what particular things would you expect the more-conservative Pope to be more... well, conservative so that it would embolden those countries.

Thing is, I would honestly prefer to use different terms within Church, because they really mean different things. In the Church, the "conservatives" are those who are really stressing the Truth and they refuse to stray from it, even at the risk of reaching less people (the parable of Jesus asking the rest of His disciples, after most had gone after saying something popular "And what about you, will you leave also?"), the "progressives" are those who are really stressing reaching as many people as possible, even at the risk of obfuscating the Truth (this one does not have a direct quotation, but it is often used that Jesus dined with prostitutes and tax-collectors (the latter being technically traitors to their own people and usurers at the same time) and offered them salvation).

This isn't a perfect comparison/explanation, but within the Church (and I don't talk about all the people who are "culturally Catholic" or at least claim to be such and yet don't care about the teachings in the slightest) there often isn't a "opposite end", or at least not such that it would have the effect you describe.

-----

I'm asking what specifically do you mean, for two reasons - first of all, Leo XIV seems to be probably more on the (Church) conservative side than people realise (at least probably more than Francis), yet he will probably get along the best with moderate lefties.

Second, because I think this divides into two categories: a. things, in which Church conservatives and agree and will always agree (say, abortion) and b. on which the opposition isn't in a direct political contrast to one another. I'll explain.

Catholicism is inherently philosophically inclusive ("et... et...") which means it often recognises the truth of opposing facts which are true, yet the contradict each other.

Say, for example, immigration, which is something the Catholics could be (somewhat) divided - it is true that every single human life is precious, it is true that for example fleeing war or oppression deserve to be sheltered and it is true that people have right to seek out happiness and for that reason, they should be allowed to travel/migrate/translocate, whatever. And it is true that people are responsible with the well-being and the protection of their family AND that a state is responsible for the well-being and the protection of its citizens, meaning there should be limits and rules to immigration. These things contradict one another, yet both are true.

Now with a (politically) "progressive" Pope you might get more reminders that the first aspect is also important. With a (politically) "conservative" Pope you might (theoretically) get more reminders that the second aspect is also important.

But besides the fact the Pope always speaks for all Catholics, both those into whose countries people are immigrating and those that are migrating (and the Church and Curia is so big with people from all over the world that you can't literally hijack the conversation), there is the fact that the way these opposing points are delivered are ... well... kinda unthinkable in a fascist way.

Even in the quite inconceivable case that, say, Dolan was somehow elected pope, I can't imagine him releasing encyclicals encouraging countries to start militarising and protect their borders with walls, because this is really not part of the Catholic discourse.

I mean, John Paul II was very conservative, yet he is remembered by people in my and many other neighbouring countries as someone who immensely helped the geopolitical situation and helped to promote peace. My father, who hates religion, the Church and Catholics in particular, always talked about him in superlatives, even when I was a kid and wanted to badmouth him because "Catholics bad, right?".

Compared with the secular world (or, well, Western world and US in particular), Francis was very conservative on many issues (like abortion or LGBTQ issues, despite what you'd hear in some media) and yet he was well-liked and is fondly remembered.

Besides, the pope is a mere servant - the ship is too big to make any drastic swerves.


Also, I don't personally mind the overuse of the word fascism, but with this
Though if we're gonna nitpick there's a pretty good argument that the majority of organized religions are inherently fascist, but that's a different topic for a different day..
don't be surprised if you manage to completely re-legitimise the term, eventually, because people will think "oh, fascism isn't such a bad thing after all".


P. S. I know, No True Scotsman, but if you want to know what true US Catholics do think (or at least are encouraged to do so), check out Trent Horn of the Counsel of Trent podcast/YT channel. He is both 100% orthodox, yet working within the specific US milieu.

I know there are "Catholic" politicians on both sides of the political spectrum (Vance x Pelosi, for example), but I will refrain from commenting on that, however it is possible that they label themselves so without actually believing the tenets and potentially even get so far from the Church with their action, that they shouldn't be considered Catholic, for all intents and purposes.
 
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Anyway, to others who probably won't be reading that and concerning only the current Pope, the summary:

Leo XIV seems to be probably more on the (Church) conservative side than people realise (at least probably more than Francis), yet he will probably get along the best with moderate lefties.

I mean, when was the last time you saw "an American head of state" :D doing this?

LXIV.png

Of course this is just a preparation before he builds that wall and makes them pay for it and the food.
 
I am going to respond to posts from the USA politics thread here as well as other posts here. I am also going to caveat all of this with the fact that I am American and I am also raised Catholic (my name is still in the book) and am very familiar with how the church operates here.

First of all, liking (or voting for, at any rate) Trump for Catholics is a complete anomaly. Most of the Church is anything but fascist (well, I suppose it depends on your definition of the term as well), but yeah, there are "conservatives" and "progressives" in the Church, but they don't always follow the same dichotomy in secular politics.
I'm sorry, but Trump won a majority of Catholic support in the last election. Even with trying to attempt to disregard some of that Catholic vote as coming from people who aren't "true" Catholics or other rationalizations, none of the numbers support this idea that voting for Trump as a Catholic is an anomaly.


I agree with the general idea that Catholic values and Republican values are at odds with each other. If you remove the issue of abortion, which I think we would both agree that Catholic views and the Democratic party views on abortion are irreconcilable, there is probably more in the Democratic party that aligns with a Catholic's view on issues such as immigration, distribution of wealth, etc. After all, both American Catholic presidents have been Democrats. So then why do a majority of American Catholics support Trump? Is it because abortion is that large of an issue? I have a hard time believing Trump is any more pro life than the average Democrat, he seemed to struggle to stake out a pro life position while campaigning, and he has reportedly indicated privately that he disagreed with the overturning of Roe v Wade. Could it be that Protestants are being mislabelled as Catholics? Maybe, but I still don't think that's enough to rationalize the majority of an entire group voting one way. At a certain point you have to consider if the values of American Catholics are at odds with the church as a whole.

I don't fear this. I think most will take the Pope over Trump.
This does seem grounded in facts. But again, you have to consider how Pope Francis has a 75% approval rating among US Catholics but the same group still had a (albeit smaller) majority support for Trump.

But enough about the internal politics of America, this is what I am most interested in:

And again, I ask in what particular things would you expect the more-conservative Pope to be more... well, conservative so that it would embolden those countries.

Thing is, I would honestly prefer to use different terms within Church, because they really mean different things. In the Church, the "conservatives" are those who are really stressing the Truth and they refuse to stray from it, even at the risk of reaching less people (the parable of Jesus asking the rest of His disciples, after most had gone after saying something popular "And what about you, will you leave also?"), the "progressives" are those who are really stressing reaching as many people as possible, even at the risk of obfuscating the Truth (this one does not have a direct quotation, but it is often used that Jesus dined with prostitutes and tax-collectors (the latter being technically traitors to their own people and usurers at the same time) and offered them salvation).

This isn't a perfect comparison/explanation, but within the Church (and I don't talk about all the people who are "culturally Catholic" or at least claim to be such and yet don't care about the teachings in the slightest) there often isn't a "opposite end", or at least not such that it would have the effect you describe.

-----

I'm asking what specifically do you mean, for two reasons - first of all, Leo XIV seems to be probably more on the (Church) conservative side than people realise (at least probably more than Francis), yet he will probably get along the best with moderate lefties.

Second, because I think this divides into two categories: a. things, in which Church conservatives and agree and will always agree (say, abortion) and b. on which the opposition isn't in a direct political contrast to one another. I'll explain.

Catholicism is inherently philosophically inclusive ("et... et...") which means it often recognises the truth of opposing facts which are true, yet the contradict each other.

Say, for example, immigration, which is something the Catholics could be (somewhat) divided - it is true that every single human life is precious, it is true that for example fleeing war or oppression deserve to be sheltered and it is true that people have right to seek out happiness and for that reason, they should be allowed to travel/migrate/translocate, whatever. And it is true that people are responsible with the well-being and the protection of their family AND that a state is responsible for the well-being and the protection of its citizens, meaning there should be limits and rules to immigration. These things contradict one another, yet both are true.

Now with a (politically) "progressive" Pope you might get more reminders that the first aspect is also important. With a (politically) "conservative" Pope you might (theoretically) get more reminders that the second aspect is also important.

But besides the fact the Pope always speaks for all Catholics, both those into whose countries people are immigrating and those that are migrating (and the Church and Curia is so big with people from all over the world that you can't literally hijack the conversation), there is the fact that the way these opposing points are delivered are ... well... kinda unthinkable in a fascist way.

Even in the quite inconceivable case that, say, Dolan was somehow elected pope, I can't imagine him releasing encyclicals encouraging countries to start militarising and protect their borders with walls, because this is really not part of the Catholic discourse.

I mean, John Paul II was very conservative, yet he is remembered by people in my and many other neighbouring countries as someone who immensely helped the geopolitical situation and helped to promote peace. My father, who hates religion, the Church and Catholics in particular, always talked about him in superlatives, even when I was a kid and wanted to badmouth him because "Catholics bad, right?".

Compared with the secular world (or, well, Western world and US in particular), Francis was very conservative on many issues (like abortion or LGBTQ issues, despite what you'd hear in some media) and yet he was well-liked and is fondly remembered.

Besides, the pope is a mere servant - the ship is too big to make any drastic swerves.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with a lot of this. I think there's a lot of baggage in using terms like "liberal," "conservative," "fascist" in context of the innerworkings of the Church. On a larger scale, it's one of the failures of political discourse in general (your idea of progressive is my idea of conservative, etc). Any pope is going to be inherently conservative. For whatever reason, Francis seemed to attract quite a bit of attention from the secular world, which led to him being mislabelled with words like “liberal” and “progressive” when he was still of course a conservative. Similarly, I anticipate Leo to be conservative, likely more than Francis, but I do hope he continues this move toward a “third way” as you describe, where human decency and empathy are core tenants of Catholicism, and voting for Trump, for example, is a rejection of those ideas. We may be able to choose sides in the war in Gaza, but a Catholic value should be that killing is wrong.

With that in mind, I get what you mean with John Paul. He was very conservative, although America at the time was probably about as conservative as him (he was pope during the Reagan years after all). But his legacy is very much his guiding voice on geopolitical issues. Just as I believe Francis’ legacy will be tied to Ukraine, Gaza, and American fascism.

Putting away "fascism", not sure what it would mean in this context, since the Church is dispersed in every continent, in hundreds of countries, but a genuine question instead - how would you define such restructuring? Meaning, what do you mean by that? I can answer particular specifics, whether the Church (and Leo in particular) would fall within that or not.
It seems to me that by appointing cardinals and putting other ideologically similar people in positions within the church to either be the successor or vote for the successor, Francis made it possible for the church to continue in the direction he was taking it in. Francis was quite a different pope compared to Benedict and John Paul II, so going into this I wasn't sure if we would get another pope who would end up being quite different compared to Francis. Obviously it still remains to be seen, but everything indicates that Leo will be more of a continuation of Francis than going back to Benedict or another direction entirely.
 
As someone who has been raised Protestant and who has studied the Bible, I think Christian values and Republican values are at odds with each other. At least if Republican values are equated with hardcore right wing Evangelicalism.
Absolutely. I honestly think that voting Republican is actively rejecting the teachings of Christ and the Bible (Jesus is very clear about this imo).

At the same time, the modern Republican Party is so deeply coupled with the Protestant church, it’s hard to imagine the two existing without each other in America. At least with the Catholic Church there’s some historic precedence of being outside the Republican Party (and at times a bogeyman target of the Republicans).
 
First of all, thank you for reading all that and for the well-thought-out response. It really means a lot to me. I'm sorry for being long-winded, but I don't feel I can really shorten this, so I'll be responsing to various parts separately, to at least somewhat mow down the word length and to sqeeze the answers into my free time.

As for this, and I'll handle this primarily

As someone who has been raised Protestant and who has studied the Bible, I think Christian values and Republican values are at odds with each other. At least if Republican values are equated with hardcore right wing Evangelicalism.
Absolutely. I honestly think that voting Republican is actively rejecting the teachings of Christ and the Bible (Jesus is very clear about this imo).

At the same time, the modern Republican Party is so deeply coupled with the Protestant church, it’s hard to imagine the two existing without each other in America. At least with the Catholic Church there’s some historic precedence of being outside the Republican Party (and at times a bogeyman target of the Republicans).

I'm really tempted to post this meme here
1746965016569.png

It is true that the tenets of Christianity tends to diverge quite a bit from Republican attitude. Also, I would argue that they are indeed incompatible, at least nowadays, to a significant degree - in practice, if not necessarily always in theory, but as a theologian and someone for whom this all is one of the most important things ever, I would be more careful about stating such thing, and not just because I am careful about any broad statements having a simple answer to "what did Jesus actually teach" or "what is Christianity really about".

Just one (and the most important) example - the core tenet of Christianity is love, we say that God is love (however the statement is not equivalent, so that doesn't meant that "love = God"), yet there is confusion of terms between what we mean and what the secular world means. That is why it irks me when people say stuff like "you are not a true Christian, didn't Jesus say you should love one another?"
Well, Jesus made a whip and aggressively threw out peaceful people from the Temple. As an act of Love.
Again, He did say we should love one another, but in the words of Princess Bride, that doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. Despite what popular modern political motto says, love isn't always love, just like water isn't always water.

Jesus taught love, not tolerance, He taught us to lay our life for our friends, not "be nice to each other", He never preached the modern mistake that we somehow make the forgiveness of sins easier by saying there are no sins at all. Saying that someone is a "bigot" and therefore completely alien to Jesus is nonsense, because by modern common usage of the word, Jesus was an extreme "bigot", in many regards, including what Americans would probably consider racism:
The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

So yes, Christianity (even the general, "mere" Christianity, more on that later) does differ from the tenets of the GOP, however it does differ from the tenets of the Democrats, of Christian Democrats, of whichever secular party to a significant degree. It has a different goal, after all.

Also, "Christianity" (and Bible, for that matter) isn't as easy to define and I'd recommend people giving C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity a read, because it speaks of what is universally Christian without the misconceptions that I've mentioned above. After that, Haidt's Righteous Mind explains at least in theory how "conservatives" and "progressives" think and what makes the difference between them. With that, yes, conservatism, even such a distorted version as the US-right-wing may speak to a Christian character and in some regards legitimately. With any "true" Christian having to pick between various version of depravity within his voting for secular authorities, I can see how these are not that incompatible in theory (the problem is, when the practice puts there people depraved and sometimes downright criminal, that's yet a different thing, but I'd address that later).

Again, I'm a bit of an advocatus diaboli here, I don't condone hardcore right-wing politics, US Evangelicals or anything like that. I have said before that if I was born in the US, I'd have a much harder time converting and I possibly wouldn't have converted yet by now.


Also, as for the Catholic / Protestant difference that Perun mentioned, yes, I believe the above is true for both Catholicism and (most) of honest Protestantism, however the reason why I'm defending Catholicism in particular (and one of the myriad reasons why I became a Catholic instead of another denomination) is the fact that Protestantism - even old school/high-church/etc. Protestantism - doesn't have a central authority, a decisive authority regarding the interpretation of the Scripture, doesn't have a theological and historical continuity and therefore neither I nor even any honest, well-read and fair Protestant (say, Redeemed Zoomer) can really say what Protestantism says - with Catholicism, you can nearly always (like, in 99.99 % cases) say what the Church teaches and why. Or if it is something that can't have official conclusive teaching (like, say, copyright, we'll never get a decisive answer in that for various reason I won't be going into now), still you have at least guidelines and arguments to make up your own conscious decision. That is why I (and Mosh, probably) speak of Catholicism in particular being contrasting to Trumpism, because with Protestants being often sorta kinda maybe able to interpret even Scripture how anyone sees fit, it's much harder to say anything like that.


(to be continued...)
 
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