Symphony X

What's your favorite Symphony X album?

  • Symphony X

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Damnation Game

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Iconoclast

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Underworld

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    27
Love Dressed to Kill. This song has everything I love about the band. Awesome groovy riff, great catchy chorus, neoclassical shredding, powerful vocals from Russell. I also really enjoy Romeo’s solo on this one, one of his better moments. All the licks flow really well and it feels like the solo has trajectory. The neoclassical bridge is great. I am starting to get the feeling I enjoy the album more than the average SX fan, as I genuinely think this as strong a 1-2 punch as anything else they’ve done.


Dream Theater can afford to take more risks because they are a much more popular band, and a lot of their fans are "lifers" who will eat up anything they play. Conversely, Kamelot and (especially) Symphony X won't take the risk of playing what they believe isn't their catchiest material for fear of missing out on grabbing a new audience. It's why 90% of a typical Symphony X set is from their last three albums. While this is true of Kamelot, as well, at least Symphony X's recent material (while different from their previous works) is still good.
I think this is another one of those cases where Dream Theater can afford to take risks because they have done things like play all of WDADU live. They set an expectation early on that setlists would represent most eras and regularly contain rarities. Even on the Images and Words tour, they were playing unreleased material and did that through the 90s. Symphony X has an equally niche audience and could totally get away with doing more rarities, their fans would reward them even.

Edit: and looks like I just barely missed it! Oh well, thoughts on the next song soon.
 
:notworthy: My interest in these types of musical nerd facts must be what sports fans enjoy about stats.
It is, and thank you.

unlike someone like Jorn Lande who just rode that clone town to bone town. What? IDK. Bye.
:lol:

Nightwish and Symphony X both like to do these riffs and have a high guitar thingy come out of nowhere and I have no idea what it's called but it's like juggajuggajuggajuWOOOEEEEbumbunnabumbunnabumWOOOOIIIIdundunna and they both like to drop the instruments out and let the heavy ass guitar have some breathing room and I have no idea if that's actual musical skill or just showing up but it's like, goddamn smash that shit right into my skull bro.
:lol:

But the more I listened to Symphony X the more I started really paying attention to the drumming and the man is an absolute beast, but he's subtle as hell. You really don't realize the mad skills he's showing off until you've listened to these albums a decent amount of times. Like you said, he's so well-integrated into the mixture that you don't even notice it at first. That's one thing I love about Symphony X, they really require time to win you over. It's complex enough that you don't realize it's as good as it is on first listen, but good enough that you recognize you want to return. And when you return you find out that oh my god these guys are terrific.
Jason Rullo is a monster and criminally underrated. When people think about Symphony X, it's generally all about the guitars and vocals while the keyboards and rhythm section are seen as a "backing band." It's pretty insulting. But this band would be so very different without Rullo's style. His polymetric playing truly defines the core of the band's sound.

I am starting to get the feeling I enjoy the album more than the average SX fan, as I genuinely think this as strong a 1-2 punch as anything else they’ve done.
They're good openers, but outside of the debut album I can't say that I think they're stronger than any other opening pair in their discography. Truthfully, they don't really have any weak opening combos.

I think this is another one of those cases where Dream Theater can afford to take risks because they have done things like play all of WDADU live. They set an expectation early on that setlists would represent most eras and regularly contain rarities. Even on the Images and Words tour, they were playing unreleased material and did that through the 90s. Symphony X has an equally niche audience and could totally get away with doing more rarities, their fans would reward them even.
I agree, but I also think that Dream Theater has more confidence in their work than Symphony X does. I remember asking Mike Lepond after a show if they'd ever play Frontiers live, and he chuckled and said "You'll never hear that. It's just too obscure, and it isn't our sound." He wasn't trying to be insulting; if anything, I think he was surprised that people even knew the song. Symphony X just isn't as adventurous when it comes to their sets as Dream Theater is. It's weird, though, because in the same conversation Lepond said that he'd "love to play Whispers live."

Jason Rullo once said "We're never going to be the kind of band to play 'Evening With' shows. It's just too much." Along the same lines, around the time Iconoclast was released, a fan asked Lepond if they had plans to play the entire album live, and he said "Oh man, that would be insane." I'm sure he was referring to the stamina required to play it in full, but their answers give me the impression that they wouldn't even consider it. They're the kind of band that just likes to play it safe.

I was genuinely shocked when they played The Divine Wings of Tragedy at ProgPower 2012 (it was the album's 15th anniversary).

 
Divine Wings was the perfect example of an awesome fan service-y surprise. I remember thinking it was a hoax when the setlist went up.

The conclusion here seems to be that Symphony X is much like Iron Maiden; you get the occasional deep cuts but more or less the setlists are pretty predictable.
 
The conclusion here seems to be that Symphony X is much like Iron Maiden; you get the occasional deep cuts but more or less the setlists are pretty predictable.

I disagree - I'd say that IM are - (un)fortunately - a much more adventurous band, setlist-wise. They did play my favourite recent album live all the way through (though it was on the leg I couldn't attend), I managed to see stuff like Revelations and Afraid to Shoot Strangers live, many people had the chance to see things like Rime, Powerslave and very recently Sign of the Cross and FTGGOG. Heck, even Out of the Silent Planet was played live. Yes, you get Iron Maiden each night and stuff like TNOTB or Wrathchild is too ever-present (so is in general stuff off the early albums, like Running Free), but the fact there's not as much surprises as with some other bands doesn't mean they're really stale. I'd even say that IM might have a very good formula to please the casual fans and to warm the real stan's heart as often as possible.
 
In addition, Maiden like to play a lot of their classic material while on their history tours, and then their new material gets a chance to shine on the album tours. Symphony X seem to have latched onto playing their new, more straight-forward material with a handful of popular classics.
 
I didn’t say Maiden’s set lists were stale or that they’re predictable in the same way, but they’re predictable in the sense that you generally know what you’re getting. Just like Symphony X has a predictable formula for primarily playing the two most recent albums, Maiden has a predictable formula for alternating cabaret tours with tours that are heavy on new material. Both bands have a handful of surprises, Maiden definitely more so, but they both follow a pretty clear pattern.
 
Dressed to Kill
Way better production, way better intro, way better break intro verses. There's nothing bad I can say about this. I mean that riff that starts at 0:41 is great, accompanied with those frantic synths and the rhythm section speeding up - right up my lane. The chorus is a bit generic, although much better than on previous albums.

That short break before second chorus is awesome, I wish they did more things like this (thumbs up for back vocals). I wish there were more parts like this throughout the song. Guitar solo after doesn't do anything for me, but the Romeo/Pinella duet is something to write home about. Some of you may find this one filler-ish while I'd say Dressed to Kill is leagues above from debut album songs.

The Edge of Tomorrow
OK, this albums just gets better and better. I love the melancholic guitar intro and even if that star-n-stop guitar @0:43 is a bit irritating, I'd say it's quite enjoyble to the bass. Why do they keep hiding him? He's still pretty low here but you can still notice him. Maybe it's because of the lack of drums (or the part that comes after that) but that guy can really add layers with sounding like he's trying too hard. IDK if he's just following the bass-drums or guitar chugging but I wouldn't mind if he ventured on his own a bit more.

The main melody @1:02of the song hits just right 1 (more of this simplistic melodies in longer complicated songs, please). Allen sounds a bit too... pathetically emotional. Not really my cup of tea. That break after the first verse and that speed up before the solos- two thumbs up. That solo trade-off between guitar and synth is a more-of-the-same from what I've heard before, but I had to hand this to them: Three and a half minutes have passed and there is so much to write about without it all sounding disjointed.

Acoustic guitar? Yes. But Allen sounds a bit too emotianal again, or maybe the lyrics that are all over the place for my taste. I like that break @7:14. I mean, he pulled it of at the end, this is one of the first time that the solo actually has a feel and memorable parts within it. I could live without the outro, tho. This seemed like one of those songs that would benefit from a fade out chorus.
 
When you think of Symphony X, what comes to mind? Yngwie noodling? Dio's twin? Epic mythologies? 20 minute songs? What about theater? To me, "The Edge of Forever" is one of the most emblematic songs in their discography when it comes to their knack for theatrical productions masked as prog epics. Speaking of which, this is their second attempt at an epic, after the... so-so "A Lesson Before Dying", and it's a pretty big step up from that previous song. Oh hold on, the play's about to start. Go find your seat, sit back, and enjoy the show. We'll meet up again after the performance to discuss it together.

"The Edge of Forever"
Written and performed by Symphony X

Cast:
Lead vocals: Russell Allen
Guitar: Michael Romeo
Keyboard: Michael Pinnella
Drums: Jason Rullo
Bass: Thomas Miller
Backing vocals: Symphony X

- ACT I -

Scene 1: The curtain rises and we are instantly met with an acoustic guitar, playing a nostalgic-sounding melody with just a hint of sadness. It is not alone, however, as both drums and bass are there to keep it company, almost like old friends there to comfort it in its time of despair. Gradually the drums become more and more present, until we actually have a decent beat going on. But then, almost out of nowhere, the melody changes. There is no nostalgia in this, just pain and depressing, enclosing darkness.

Scene 2: Now the bass takes center stage. The bassist is, of course, a Mr. Thomas Miller, and in previous productions by the Symphony X touring group he's been playing some very intricate characters but never got a chance to shine in front of the other stars. Now he's really making his presence known in this one. Our acoustic friend has left and in its place comes an electric guitar, waiting in the wings, just vibing until it gets its chance to out front and center.

Scene 3: And now there it is! Michael Romeo steps out of the shadows with his guitar and leads us into the song's main motif. Michael Pinnella emerges just behind him with his piano, and it's a really beautiful piece coming together in front of us. Beyond the rhythm guitar, Mr. Romeo starts to shine with a nice lead piece that is layered wonderfully atop the piano. He's an overperformer, certainly, but when he applies himself he can do more in less than he thinks. This has such a nice groove and an exquisite melody, - wait, now things have changed. Things are icy now. The motif spins to be sailing towards darker waters and you can't help but feel worried for the characters.

Scene 4: Now the lights are lowering, and all the actors remove themselves from the stage bar the piano. Pinnella leads an introduction to the fifth actor in tonight's show. He's been waiting for so long to make his appearance, and this is his first year with the Symphony X group. He's got something to prove. Slowly he walks across the balcony, with his face turned from the audience. He is like a shadow. You can tell from his performance that he's young, and he's going to go to some great places but isn't quite there yet. But still, the utter passion he's bringing to it makes up for any inexperience. The previous performer didn't have that at all. Now they've finally found someone who will take them to the top.

Scene 5: Mr. Romeo reenters the stage and after a moment of reflection, we hit action territory. This is a metal play, after all, and now we're finally seeing it come together. Mr. Pinnella and Mr. Romeo have a moment of what one could label as a 'duel', but really they're just playing off of each other and it certainly isn't a competition. It's synths / guitar / synths / guitar as they show off their skills as performers in the theater tonight. Once this comes to a close, the curtain falls. The first act is over.

- ACT II -

Scene 1: There's no intermission in this play, just some set changes, and while that happens we get a return of the piano before the acoustic guitar from Act I, Scene 1 makes its soulful reappearance. The piano is replaced with some lovely atmospheric synths (also performed by Mr. Pinnella) as the curtain rises once more and we open to a dimly lit room. There are two people in this room. One is a woman, but we (the audience) are unsure if she's an actor too or just an illusion that the group is beaming into our minds. The other person here, however, is very much a real actor. We still haven't seen his face yet. In this scene his back is turned on us. He clasps the woman's hand in his own. His entire posture is of a man bleeding from within over some terrible emotion too great to state outright. As he sings you are moved greatly, and when he utters the line, "You never make a sound," chills run up your spine. Holy shit.

Scene 2: Now the rest of the troupe didn't exit during that scene, and indeed, they were providing us with some really nice, lush instrumentation, but now they're back to show us their skills. Mr. Romeo leads us into a pretty nice guitar solo as things are shifting back to heavier territory.

Scene 3: Then, almost from out of nowhere, that actor we've only seen in the shadows leaps into the center of the stage and addresses the audience head on as the chorus begins. It's taken over half the play to finally see our main character, and in this chorus the rest of the group coming together to back the powerful presence of Sir Russell Allen. Now that he's properly introduced himself to us, they're going to milk him and that chorus for everything it's worth. And to that I say: respect! What we at first think is a bridge is actually another verse of the play leading back to a second run of the chorus. In this one Sir Allen really gives it his everything. The amount of passion in this performance is almost unthinkable when we consider how much it was missing in the group's debut. Incredible.

Scene 4: Now in this play everyone gets their chance to shine. While he's been hiding behind the rest up till now, Mr. Jason Rullo has been keeping things intricate behind the drumkit and letting his performance speak for itself. Now he gets a glimmer of the spotlight as he gives us the transition we need via a drum fill, which sounds great and actually works better in my humble opinion than others may give it credit for. But now it's Mr. Romeo's turn to really show what a brilliant performer he is... and he manages it decently, but again, his penchant for over-acting nearly gets the better of him. That guitar solo gets quite noodly, yet still drives the point across, so overall it's a success, I would say.

Scene 5: A guitar fill from Mr. Romeo, and then Sir Allen returns for the grand finale's chorus. And then, as we reach the outro and await the curtain's final fall, something completely shifts the narrative. Sir Allen sings out to his love a calling to live again -- and then sprouts a pair of wings from his back and flies off into the night! Suddenly what was a touching story about lost love becomes something twistedly interesting, and as the curtain closes on the final scene, and the actors take their bows, we are left in shock, realizing that what we just saw was actually a completely different take on Dracula. Wow.

~ F I N ~​

Wow! What a performance! Definitely a bit rough around the edges, and I'm sure these lads are going to get even better from here, but it's a terrific early success for them. Sir Allen brings so much more to the table than whoever the fuck they last had (let's just forget he ever existed, alright?) and is filled with a youthful energy so few harness well into their careers. Mr. Romeo definitely likes to steal the spotlight, but it's Mr. Pinnella, Mr. Rullo, and Mr. Miller that really hold the show together.

Now I know my theater critic friend @MrKnickerbocker loves this play a lot, and I really enjoy it myself, but I don't feel the same way for it that he does. Still, it's a really powerful set of performances all working together to bring across a really touching story, and if you aren't moved, then I can't help you there. From me? Two thumbs up for sure. A wonderful precursor to future successes.
 
“The Edge Of Forever”:

Nice acoustic opening with little bass and percussive accents. I like the stream of chord changes that come next. The bass lead with monotone guitar accents gives me a nice Rush vibe. Ooh, nice piano / guitar tradeoff lead with busy bass underneath, and then they come together.

A great gentle vocal delivers the verse. Nice bass fills here. This suddenly cuts into a distorted guitar rhythm with a piano melody and driving bass line, kind of a Dream Theater feel. Then we’re on to a riff with some dissonant accents and neoclassical fills, which are cool. Mmm, dueling synth and guitar solos. A nice guitar and piano bit follows.

Back to the plaintive acoustic guitar, and we get an interesting, not so soft, octave-doubled vocal here. Nice chord and rhythm changes. The next vocal section (“love is flowing from my fingertips”) almost has a very light Dirt-era Alice In Chains vibe to it, which is a bit odd. Nice melodic solo.

The chorus is pretty good, and catches a little fire when it kicks up a notch. Nice piano and bass interlude that takes on some riffage toward the end. The next vocal has a very Yngwie-esque feel before rolling into a variant chorus, then a cool extended solo.

Back to the chorus, and I really like that note drop at the very end of it. Nice vocal crescendo and a sort-of big rock ending at the end, though it doesn’t quite go all in with it.

Great song with lots of musical meat and no real weaknesses, but it never quite grabs me by the throat or sinks its teeth in to take things to the next level. 8/10.
 
Why do they keep hiding him?
He can't eat after midnight or the shit hits the fan.

Honestly, I think the bass on the first four albums is mixed quite well. He could be a tad louder, but all of the instruments can be heard clearly most of the time. On V and The Odyssey, the bass is sadly too compressed to hear a lot of the glorious details. On their last three albums, the bass tone is much stronger, but because of the more guitar-heavy style of the music it is often buried in the mix.

Allen sounds a bit too... pathetically emotional.
I think you may be the first person to ever describe Russell Allen's voice as "pathetic" anything.

I'm sure he was going for a more vulnerable and emotive tone, as this was his first "ballad-ish" moment with the band.

The bass lead with monotone guitar accents gives me a nice Rush vibe.

This suddenly cuts into a distorted guitar rhythm with a piano melody and driving bass line, kind of a Dream Theater feel.
As fan of both bands, I had never made these connections until you said it... but I definitely hear them!
 
It's hard to argue that The Edge of Forever isn't the strongest track on Symphony X's first two albums. It has everything - progressive keyboard beauty, heavy riffs, haunting verses, killer solos, bass noodling, neoclassical stuff... it's simply a treasure. I don't think I can come close to @Diesel 11's analysis, but here's my take on it.
  • The intro is hauntingly beautiful. Romeo's acoustic playing is so crisp, and the chord changes are actually made by the bass (the guitar is repeating the exact same phrase). Halfway through we get some cymbal action, a bass fill, and the subtle piano creeping around in the background. I love this section.
  • Symphony X has once again let its followers bathe in the polymetric light, as Miller leads the section over a Rullo groove in 6 while Romeo actually provides what a bass would normally play, but in 7/4. If you're listening to this for the first time, the guitar chords probably sound random. I love this section.
  • When the beat actually drops there's a chilling call-and-response between the piano and guitar, while the bass drops down an octave into a more traditional range but with a similar motif. That little upper-octave fill out of nowhere gives me chills. This whole part does. I love this section.
  • After some heaviness and a modulation, we're in the first verse - and we're treated to breathy Russell and a very John Myung-ish bass fill. In the next buildup section, we hear some low Cs on the 5-string bass and eventually the whole thing gets morphed into neoclassical madness. As a bass player, I take such joy in hearing Miller double Romeo's crazy-ass leads. Just wow.
  • I don't think these solos are anything special as they're mostly just noodling, but it's hard to complain considering the sheer power of the section. So many of Pinnella's early solos sound like the castle levels from Yoshi's Island - and that is a compliment.
  • Post-solos we jump right into an instrumental version of the upcoming choruses, with the piano (did I mention how much I love Pinnella's choice to stick with mostly piano on this song?) playing the eventual vocal melody. This riff is quite simple for Symphony X, being entirely in E Phrygian and lacking any "evil" neoclassical notes. I remember an old instructional video of Romeo's where he's talking about some of the bizarre modes he uses and he said something like "I'm not really a *plays the descending lick from The Edge of Forever chorus* kinda guy." Well, you were at least once, buddy.
  • The song lowers its dynamic again, featuring fingerpickin' classical goodness by Romeo. I love this section. The keyboard comes in, very subtly, followed by the rhythm section for an immense, synced-up groove. Russell is on top of all this, with some simple but effective harmonies. I also love the snaky staccato bass groove under "you never make a sound."
    • The random bars of 7/4 with the two-step jump from Dm to F#m is one of the song's weirder moments, but the piano's creepiness makes up for it.
  • After a three-strep jump (what?!) up to Cm, we're in another glorious verse. This part is excellently eerie, and Russell's vocal harmonies - which don't sound like octaves but rather some unusual interval(s) - are perfect. This is a great example of Romeo playing with restraint, using a simple palm-muted motif which allows Russell to carry the section.
  • Romeo's most tasteful solo of the song follows, with not one noodling string-skipping arpeggio in sight. I knew he could do it!
    • I typically love Symphony X's penchant for randomly jumping into a batshit crazy tapping lick that the bass doubles every note of, but even I will admit that it's a tad out of place here. I like the section leading up to the fill, though, as it sounds like a plane trying to make an emergency landing and finally hitting the ground all buttery smooth.
  • The chorus finally drops only 61% of the way into the song. Kudos, Symphony X. You're officially proggier now. You made us wait.
    • And what a tremendous chorus it is! For a band that I've always thought delivers stronger verses than choruses, they knock this one out of the park. The modulation up to Am means Russell is almost at his wailing register, which comforts me that all is right in the world.
  • The "Rush" reprise is great, and I like that Romeo hangs back and lets Miller carry it.
  • The seventeenth verse is a metallized version of the verse at 3:43, with Russell bumped up an octave but the rest of the guys in chunkier territory. Love it. Also, skipping the dual legato sexiness and jumping right back into the chorus straight out of Russell's wail was a great decision.
    • Others have said it, but Rullo's fill into the guitar solo is a bit jarring. It's almost unnecessary, as the chorus could have lead right into the solo with Russell crooning again. It's like they thought that Rullo didn't stand out enough in the song and gave him a fill spot, but he should have refused.
  • It feels like Romeo was trying to make a John Petrucci statement with the guitar solo, and while he doesn't quite get there, it's a fine solo in its own right. My only complaint is the snooze-inducing backing music, which is just running sixteenth notes with occasional chord changes. I get that Romeo probably didn't want to distract from the solo, but he could have at least given this a groove. For shame.
  • The ending is not what I expected, and I'll admit that I think the song should have had a proper outro. It works fine, but it seems a bit rushed, like they just wanted to get the song over with. This, by the way, is where Rullo should have done a big-ass Mike Portnoy fill to close things out.
There are minor bits and pieces of this song that are head-scratchers, but the vast majority of it is pure excellence. When I hear the relatively flat ballads on their later albums, I think of this song and remember the magic of this style that was tragically lost along the way, like the divine wings of a stained-glass angel.

I have an interesting story about this song. After a show on the 2007 Paradise Lost tour, @MrKnickerbocker and I chatted with Russell and the guys for a solid hour. One fan joined us, and I don't know if he was drunk or what, but he would not stop talking about The Edge of Forever and how it annoyed him that the band never played it live. Russell said that they tried it once (I believe this was at an early ProgPower), but that it just didn't "flow" well. He was having trouble explaining it, but we all picked up on what he was trying to say (except this guy, of course). The song has a lot of sections that ring out, raising and lowering the dynamic - but not in a dramatic Opethian way that would make it exciting to hear live. There's a lot of "bleeding" from one section to another. Remember that Symphony X didn't go on their first tour until after Twilight in Olympus, so I don't think they were as concerned with writing music that wound translate to a live show in those days. It's a shame, but I agree that picturing this song in a live environment would be difficult due to its style. What do you all think?
 
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It's hard to argue that The Edge of Forever isn't the strongest track on Symphony X's first two albums.
Well in spite of my own analysis I’m very likely to do just that when we get to the two parter at the end of the album, but we shall see...!

It's a shame, but I agree that picturing this song in a live environment would be difficult due to its style. What do you all think?
Right now I’m still envisioning the whole ‘theater’ the song presents so I could totally see that main motif from the song leading to cheers from the crowd. I understand there’s a lot going on though which would be tough to coordinate, but this is the band that throws “The Odyssey” in their encores like it’s nothing so... good question for sure.
 
Honestly, I think the bass on the first four albums is mixed quite well. He could be a tad louder, but all of the instruments can be heard clearly most of the time. On V and The Odyssey, the bass is sadly too compressed to hear a lot of the glorious details. On their last three albums, the bass tone is much stronger, but because of the more guitar-heavy style of the music it is often buried in the mix.
I didn't mean just the mix, I meant his style of playing also. The only time he shines when guitar does nothing, as if he was given a permission to do something that he wanted. It may be that I'm still unfamiliar with the songs I've heard already, and I need a lot of more listens, but I have a feeling he's hidden behind bass drums or simplistic guitar riffs.

I think you may be the first person to ever describe Russell Allen's voice as "pathetic" anything.
I'm sure he was going for a more vulnerable and emotive tone, as this was his first "ballad-ish" moment with the band.
Yeah, that phrase didn't translate my thoughts well. "Vulnerable" is more accurate, but also that whole line didn't sound... "sincere" to me (this probably won't translate well too).
Well in spite of my own analysis I’m very likely to do just that when we get to the two parter at the end of the album, but we shall see...!
Same here. I still need to listen to the rest of the album, but so far it's leagues above everything else I've heard.

@Detective Beauregard @MrKnickerbocker
I love that your analysis have "musical" theory background. As a guy who even played guitar and bass a long time ago, I've never bothered with learning the names of the chords, notes, tempos et cetera, et cetera. For example, I've recognized everything Det. B. wrote about The Edge of Forever but I could never put my finger on what is that actually called. Thumbs up for that!
 
@Detective Beauregard @MrKnickerbocker
I love that your analysis have "musical" theory background. As a guy who even played guitar and bass a long time ago, I've never bothered with learning the names of the chords, notes, tempos et cetera, et cetera. For example, I've recognized everything Det. B. wrote about The Edge of Forever but I could never put my finger on what is that actually called. Thumbs up for that!
Yeah I agree. I don’t have much theory knowledge so my own reviews / analyses have to come from a different place of just, listening to a lot of music and see what I like and dislike. I think the different approaches allows us some really nice variations so we don’t keep saying the same things.
 
I didn't mean just the mix, I meant his style of playing also. The only time he shines when guitar does nothing, as if he was given a permission to do something that he wanted. It may be that I'm still unfamiliar with the songs I've heard already, and I need a lot of more listens, but I have a feeling he's hidden behind bass drums or simplistic guitar riffs.
Sadly, that’s just part of being a bassist in a metal band. There’s an example of the bass playing an “up-front” groove on the next song, but sadly it doesn’t last long. Once the sound gets heavier and more guitar-oriented (e.g. their last three albums), the bass has even less room to shine since the guitars are practically always at 11. If anything, the band’s earlier days are unusual in that while the guitar may get most of the attention, it’s not overwhelming in the mix.

The more “metal” a band gets, the less the bassists have a chance to shine. There’s only so much a bass can do under a metal riff, so it usually just has to lock in with it. This is one of the reasons I prefer Symphony X’s more progressive works; they are more adventurous and less rigid in their soundscapes.

Also, why did you stop playing?
 
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Glad to see that everyone enjoyed The Edge of Forever! Maybe not as much as myself, but I guess that's okay. Anyway: update coming in a few hours!
I literally cropped this line out and sent it to my girlfriend. This is exactly what I try to get across when I hear something I like. Nightwish and Symphony X both like to do these riffs and have a high guitar thingy come out of nowhere and I have no idea what it's called but it's like juggajuggajuggajuWOOOEEEEbumbunnabumbunnabumWOOOOIIIIdundunna and they both like to drop the instruments out and let the heavy ass guitar have some breathing room and I have no idea if that's actual musical skill or just showing up but it's like, goddamn smash that shit right into my skull bro.
HAHAHAHAH I'm glad I could help! I honestly think this is mostly the composition (and the recording/mixing), as these types of riffs are usually not the hardest parts in the songs. Dynamics and tone, they're often far more powerful than technically challenging parts.
Yes, yes!!! Goddamn you are spitting fire today. This is exactly what I've concluded about Rullo except not so well expressed. When I first listened to Symphony X I literally could give less of a shit that he wasn't on Twilight in Olympus. LC was all "thank GOD Rullo has returned" in his V review and I was thinking, "Okay. Yeah. Good."

But the more I listened to Symphony X the more I started really paying attention to the drumming and the man is an absolute beast, but he's subtle as hell. You really don't realize the mad skills he's showing off until you've listened to these albums a decent amount of times. Like you said, he's so well-integrated into the mixture that you don't even notice it at first. That's one thing I love about Symphony X, they really require time to win you over. It's complex enough that you don't realize it's as good as it is on first listen, but good enough that you recognize you want to return. And when you return you find out that oh my god these guys are terrific.
It's also another nod to Romeo considering he does the majority of the musical writing for the band and I'm sure helps with all of the drum arrangements (if not flat out maps out some of Rullo's parts). However, it's still Rullo being an absolute unit back there.
I think this is another one of those cases where Dream Theater can afford to take risks because they have done things like play all of WDADU live. They set an expectation early on that setlists would represent most eras and regularly contain rarities. Even on the Images and Words tour, they were playing unreleased material and did that through the 90s. Symphony X has an equally niche audience and could totally get away with doing more rarities, their fans would reward them even.
I disagree - I'd say that IM are - (un)fortunately - a much more adventurous band, setlist-wise. They did play my favourite recent album live all the way through (though it was on the leg I couldn't attend), I managed to see stuff like Revelations and Afraid to Shoot Strangers live, many people had the chance to see things like Rime, Powerslave and very recently Sign of the Cross and FTGGOG. Heck, even Out of the Silent Planet was played live. Yes, you get Iron Maiden each night and stuff like TNOTB or Wrathchild is too ever-present (so is in general stuff off the early albums, like Running Free), but the fact there's not as much surprises as with some other bands doesn't mean they're really stale. I'd even say that IM might have a very good formula to please the casual fans and to warm the real stan's heart as often as possible.
In addition, Maiden like to play a lot of their classic material while on their history tours, and then their new material gets a chance to shine on the album tours. Symphony X seem to have latched onto playing their new, more straight-forward material with a handful of popular classics.
I also think that Dream Theater has more confidence in their work than Symphony X does. I remember asking Mike Lepond after a show if they'd ever play Frontiers live, and he chuckled and said "You'll never hear that. It's just too obscure, and it isn't our sound." He wasn't trying to be insulting; if anything, I think he was surprised that people even knew the song. Symphony X just isn't as adventurous when it comes to their sets as Dream Theater is. It's weird, though, because in the same conversation Lepond said that he'd "love to play Whispers live."

Jason Rullo once said "We're never going to be the kind of band to play 'Evening With' shows. It's just too much." Along the same lines, around the time Iconoclast was released, a fan asked Lepond if they had plans to play the entire album live, and he said "Oh man, that would be insane." I'm sure he was referring to the stamina required to play it in full, but their answers give me the impression that they wouldn't even consider it. They're the kind of band that just likes to play it safe.
I fully think the band believes that playing rarities would be detrimental to the success of their live shows. And I get it. They barely do this. They tour every like 4-5 years and play maybe 40-50 shows. If they were more active, they'd also be more adventurous with their sets.
 
Oh, by the way, while we're still on this song and talking about ProgPower:


Michael Romeo on harmony vocals!
Russell having trouble!
Lepond playing Miller's bass fills!

"Enough of this sad shit." :lol:

Yeah, I can see why they didn't play this often.
 
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Savage Curtain

LYRICS:
Besiege me not for what I am
A man with intent in the devil's den
For I know not what to believe
Yet mad I am not in trust I deceive
Radical alteration in my temper
Grows worse day by day
I will offer you extreme opposition

CHORUS:
Savage curtain closes in on you
But I do grieve the evident
Behind this illusion

The fury of demons possessing me
My fiendish corruption will fill my need
Every reason to fulfill my deed
Have we not a perpetual inclination
To violate that which is law merely
Because we know it to be?

CHORUS

[Guitar Solo(s)]

CHORUS
  • Wow. Just wow. Just when you thought the album was on an uptick following the incredible Edge of Forever, we get..........this.
  • There's almost nothing to say here. Rullo kicks things off with a fill because Romeo had no idea how to start the song.
  • The riffs are fine. They don't do much. It's like the hardest kind of power chord playing you can do. Always modulating, never going anywhere.
  • Thomas Miller is really doing everything he can to make this song better, but there's just not much he can do. Some cool funky pops happening before the verses (these might be the best musical moments of the entire song).
  • Boy. Russell just showed up and pressed record for this one. Maybe one of his weakest recorded performances, IMO, and I don't think it's his fault at all. The lyrics and melodies are just so fucking bad. I have absolutely no idea what the lyrics are talking about and they sound like a philosophy major who fell asleep writing a paper for his sociology class. For anyone who thinks Russell would be great in Dream Theater, please remember that John Myung writes lyrics like this and, if Russell attempted to sing them, it would sound like Savage Curtain.
  • I'm also going to assume that Miller wrote the lyrics here (cause they don't sound like Romeo), so all of his cool bass playing is pretty much cancelled out.
  • The chorus is just as bad as the verse. Completely hamfisted vocal melody writing going on here. It's just as bad as anything on the debut.
  • Romeo noodles for like 45 seconds. It sounds like noodling. There's one cool lick from 2:29-2:32.
  • Romeo, Miller and Pinnella wank the shit out of their instruments before we return for another (equally unmemorable) chorus.
  • Then the song just...implodes? Romeo also clearly had no idea how to end this song.
  • I don't remember Secrets or The Haunting all that much, but I'm willing to bet this is my least favorite song on this album.
 
Michael Romeo on harmony vocals!
Russell having trouble!
Lepond playing Miller's bass fills!

"Enough of this sad shit." :lol:

Yeah, I can see why they didn't play this often.
Oh boy. That's rough. Russell nailed some of those heavier parts, but the softer ones just didn't work. I can see what he was alluding to now. Oh, and that "duet" with Romeo... I mean he couldn't even keep a straight face after it. His mic needed to be way lower.

On a side note, it's hard to believe that this was 20 years ago. Russell and Lepond look like different people.
 
Savage Curtain

This one is actually OK, considering it's short/rocker/filler. (does Symphony X actually have this kind of songs or is this the simplest we get?)
It's "fenced" with this intro and outro that don't really have anything to do with the rest of the song. I could easily see the song starting right away with the riff.
Synths are simplistic and that small bass lick before the verse is a thumb up. I agree that the lyrical melody is a bit off. It's like having a conversation with a person and you don't know if he/she/they actually finished the sentence so you tick every time afraid you'll interrupt. I don't think it's due to word complexity, it more looks like the lines are quite uneven and stylistically very different.
First part of the chorus (with the back vocals) is quite great actually, it's the second part that goes nowhere.
At this point, I'll be brave and admit that these type of solos (from 2:06) are becoming a bit annoying. Until 2:29 there is nothing wrong with that solo but somehow it's just... flavorless. Bass/guitar lick are, again, a thumb up.
And I agree, song should've ended 15-20 seconds earlier.

Sadly, that’s just part of being a bassist in a metal band. There’s an example of the bass playing an “up-front” groove on the next song, but sadly it doesn’t last long. Once the sound gets heavier and more guitar-oriented (e.g. their last three albums), the bass has even less room to shine since the guitars are practically always at 11. If anything, the band’s earlier days are unusual in that while the guitar may get most of the attention, it’s not overwhelming in the mix.

The more “metal” a band gets, the less the bassists have a chance to shine. There’s only so much a bass can do under a metal riff, so it usually just has to lock in with it. This is one of the reasons I prefer Symphony X’s more progressive works; they are more adventurous and less rigid in their soundscapes.
Yeah I noticed that but these little solo endeavors that Miller does are just so... tasty. It may be that I'm spoiled because bands that got me into heavier music have distinctive bass players. Recently when I was listening to Powerslave, I remembered how I admire Steve's bass lines on 2 Minutes to Midnight (just listen to isolated track on YouTube, I mean, you could never tell that is a bass line for such a "simplistic" song.) I admire when a bassist has great technical skills but in my opinion, it's what he brings to the table (song) that differentiates him from the rest.
Also, why did you stop playing?
I never had patience and/or persistence to just sit down and learn. For 10 years or so it was like: "Oh, I like this song or that song, I'll find the tabs and learn that." So, it was just me playing along with the song or doodling something on my own. At one point, I felt stuck due all these techniques I was supposed to learn i.e. I was lacking proper learning routine.
Anyway, at the same time, some major parts of my life started to drain more and more time I had for playing, so I decided: If I don't have time to do it properly, I'm not going to half-ass it. I packed all my equipment and put it away until better days. I still have a plan that in 10 years or so, I'll buy a new electric guitar, Fender Squier or something similar (I have this old second-hand Epiphone by Gibson which is so heavy and sturdy) and start from the beginning, this time more tenaciously. (I also have Cort Action bass and Behringer amplifier for it but I'm quite satisfied with them).
 
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