Surveillance

I

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
I was talking with a frined from the UK the other day, and the subject of surveillance came up.
I was shocked to learn that in Britain, a country I had always though of as a bastion of freedom, was full of Closed Circuit TV (CCTV) cameras. My friend didn’t seem to mind this invasion of his privacy every time he walked around his city, but he freely admitted that the presence of the cameras changes his behaviour (Not necessarily stopping crimes, but just his general disposition). Not even George W. Bush has tried something this outrageous (yet).

It seems to be an assault on the basic tenets of freedom and rights to privacy. Has Great Britain defied the odds and beat the USA to the punch as far as stuff like this goes? Are Brits so scared for themselves that they’re willing to give up any pretences to public freedom they once enjoyed?
Even if you were reasonably sure nobody was watching, would/do the possibility of being watched make you act differently? Do you buy the argument that you have nothing to worry about as long as you don’t commit a crime?

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. – Benjamin Franklin
 
I also find it distasteful, but I don't find it outrageous (in the most literal sense of that word, something that should inspire outrage). It is my understanding that these cameras are only installed in public locations, and a person has no right to presume any privacy in a public location. If these cameras were installed in homes, then that would be outrageous; but I see nothing terrible about the current situation.

Furthermore, CC camera systems are quite common in the US. Banks, shopping centers... even the city buses in Denver have such cameras. And they do not change my behavior. Maybe others, but not me.
 
Attention, "slave to the power of death":

Your post strikes me as an attempt at humor, fit for a thread in the Madness forum. In this General Discussion forum, we try to stay serious and on-topic.

If you really meant what you wrote: seek psychiatric help.

If not: please confine your Madness to that forum.

This is merely a cheerful reminder, from a person who's been here a while to a newcomer. Please don't take it personally. [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":D\" border=\"0\" alt=\"biggrin.gif\" /]
 
There is a discussion on installing cameras in big public locations such as railway stations, major downtown plazas and the likes. At first I was very concerned about it, but then I though a bit about it. It wouldn't change very much. Whenever I enter a major department store, a bank, ride the bus or walk past certain buildings, they have security cameras installed too. If the cameras are publically installed, in places that are frequented by many people, I don't think my privacy would be disturbed. I shed off my privacy when I walk out the front door anyway. Where's the difference if the regular bum watches me or some camera?
If there was serious suspicion that the BND (German intelligence agency) was going to observe and track people down, it would be different. But these cameras are used to make the public safer. That is perfectly OK with me. It's not that I don't feel safe, but then, I'm probably already living in one of the safest places there is.
Also, I don't see where my liberty is threatened. I must honestly say, some North Americans strike me as being over-obsessed and also over-cautious with the topic. Liberty is when you don't have to think about it. When you don't feel the need to discuss it. Going by these standards, I'm living in one of the freest societies in the world.
And I am grateful for that.
 
Yes there are CCTV cameras in our City Centres, Shopping Centres, High Streets, etc. here in the UK, but I would guess most of us Brits probably wouldn’t even care for them. It changes nothing in my behaviour in public as it probably does others. I don’t actually see what the fuss is about, although this is merely my take on it.

But, as the trend in the UK is to wear 'hoodies', surveillance cameras would be able to see the perpetrators of such crimes they are trying to minimise, but may not be able to see the face!

What is more worrying and a gross invasion of privacy is spyware, etc.
 
There is nothing wrong with CCTV in public places, for christs sake its not like we have a camera following every person to study them, it's merely there to aid the police and to discourage crime. I don't consider it an invasion of privacy any more than having policemen on the street. It HAS to be done in England, because of the crime rate. And no-body (or at least next to no-body) I know objects.

Stop with the conspiracy theories.
 
[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]I must honestly say, some North Americans strike me as being over-obsessed and also over-cautious with the topic. [/quote]

Imagine if Woodrow Wilson or FDR heard you say that.
...just sayin'


As for assuming no privacy when you go out in public, that's not true. I don't want to be monitered like a criminal just because I walk down the street. It's a presumption of guilt, to be honest. If I've done nothing wrong, why should my movements be potentially monitered?
It's not right that banks or shopping centres have them either - businesses are starting to know far too much personal information about people.

If cameras are ok, then are mandatory tracking devices the next step? If you've done nothing wrong, there's no big deal, right? There's not much real difference between the two, so where do you draw the line?

Don't mind me, I'm just an over-obsessed North American in a tinfoil hat.
*rolls eyes*
 
I think the Duke has a good point there. When I left Blighty, over 12 years ago, things weren't that bad. The last time I was there (about 4 months ago), I was amazed to see CCTV cameras all over the place. My first thought was: "Big Brother!"

Has the crime rate increased that much in the UK that it can only be somehow "controlled" by such means?

I'm in favour of education over repression and I think that people should be made aware that a crime-ridden society is not viable for long and certainly not good for their own health! Just take the example of guns: most US American households have a gun of some sort, and gun-related crime is pretty high there; now look at Canada (same amount of guns as in the US) or even Switzerland (every male Swiss citizen between 18 and 50 has an assault rifle at home - and with the bullets as well!). These last two countries have however a much lower crime rate when it comes to firearms (actually, a Swiss using his rifle against someone is a freak event that occurs maybe every 25 years).

What I'm trying to say is that the Canadians and Swiss have a different attitude towards guns. They use them for sport, defense against wild animals (in Canada), or target practice. They'd never think of turning their firearms against a fellow human being. Simply because they know that it's just not on. The US Americans consider that these guns are there to "protect their property." Fine. What's law enforcement there for, then? If anyone can act like a cowboy and shoot the neighbour because he inadvertently parked his car a bit too close to your driveway, we don't need a police force, do we?

To go back to the UK, I simply think that those CCTV cameras are an overreaction that's more trying to cure the symptoms than the disease itself. Get people to respect each other and each other's property and we'll live in a better place without the need for such dubious device.
 
[!--quoteo(post=132208:date=Mar 16 2006, 12:47 PM:name=IronDuke)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Mar 16 2006, 12:47 PM) [snapback]132208[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Imagine if Woodrow Wilson or FDR heard you say that.
...just sayin'[/quote]

Wilson and Roosevelt were defending freedom when it was actually threatened. When North America was actually facing a situation where outside forces threatened the liberty, identity and independence of America and its democracy. Where is that situation now?

It's nowhere. Western democracy is safer than ever. Don't let a bit of Fox News propaganda on terrorists fool you. They do not want to bring the downfall of western democracy, they only want to be left alone by the westerners. The 11. September attacks did not do anything to threat the freedom of the American people. All they did was say "get the fuck out of our lives!".

Duke, I think you are over-reacting. Cameras in public areas are not meant to "track" people, but simply to ensure the security of these places. So you think having cameras in banks are out of order? I'd like to hear you say that after you've witnessed a bank roberry.
You are not going to be monitored when walking down the street. It will simply be the same thing as if a policeman was standing at a corner of a large public place, just making sure everything is in order. I don't know how that is over at your place, but in the city I frequent, there is police presence, which makes me feel safe. Does this make it a police state? Don't be ridiculous.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]businesses are starting to know far too much personal information about people.
[/quote]

Like... what? Oooh, so the local Media Markt knows I like Iron Maiden. Wow. I feel so observed and stripped of my privacy. Not that they would have guessed by my t-shirts anyway.
My local bank knows I'm checking in twice a day to get some money. Wow. And that means what? They're gonna come and ask me what I'm spending that money for and ask why I come in twice?

My actions are not easy to comprehend for many people, because I do act strangely in public from time to time. That is often because I have to spend several hours in the city waiting and am therefore bored as hell, so I walk into stores more than once, spend a bit more time than usual staring and girl's arses and so on. Do I care what people think of me? People won't start checking my bags or trouser pockets, so I'm not worried to the slightest.

The problem I see in this discussion is that some people think democracy goes over security. That is precisely the fatal error that caused the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure, I would not like to live in a dictature either, and I'd probably do my best to flee from it, but I'd rather shut up with the secret police outside my house than get blown to pieces on the street! If I don't feel secure in a place, I don't want to live there, no matter what liberties I have there.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]where do you draw the line? [/quote]

Cameras installed in public places. Be real. The department store doesn't put a mandatory tracking device on me. Any tracking device (any kind of "price reduction cards") is voluntary, and I don't own any.
I don't want more than cameras installed in public places, but I do think they are in order. You are not tracked, you are not controlled. The cameras are there to make sure nothing bad happens in public places, and they save tax money by allowing police(wo)men to go after more important things than patrolling orderly areas.
 
[!--quoteo(post=132212:date=Mar 16 2006, 01:29 PM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Mar 16 2006, 01:29 PM) [snapback]132212[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
The problem I see in this discussion is that some people think democracy goes over security. That is precisely the fatal error that caused the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure, I would not like to live in a dictature either, and I'd probably do my best to flee from it, but I'd rather shut up with the secret police outside my house than get blown to pieces on the street! If I don't feel secure in a place, I don't want to live there, no matter what liberties I have there.[/quote]

Wait a second, I just noticed this can well be misunderstood. I'm not advocating "limits to freedom" in favour of security controls. I'm just... I won't get out of this [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":(\" border=\"0\" alt=\"sad.gif\" /]
 
[!--quoteo(post=132211:date=Mar 16 2006, 12:18 PM:name=Maverick)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Mar 16 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]132211[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
To go back to the UK, I simply think that those CCTV cameras are an overreaction that's more trying to cure the symptoms than the disease itself. Get people to respect each other and each other's property and we'll live in a better place without the need for such dubious device.
[/quote]

But how would you change the way people live? CCTV is not an overreaction at all! I agree more should be done to stop CCTV being relied on, by teaching the public what is right and what isn't. But until a system for that is in place, CCTV plays a crucial role in solving crimes and tracking down the perpetrators. It is not the government trying to watch us all to make sure we are all good citizens. There is nothing untowards about these cameras whatso ever!
 
[!--quoteo(post=132214:date=Mar 16 2006, 02:06 PM:name=dogigniter)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(dogigniter @ Mar 16 2006, 02:06 PM) [snapback]132214[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I agree more should be done to stop CCTV being relied on, by teaching the public what is right and what isn't. But until a system for that is in place, CCTV plays a crucial role in solving crimes and tracking down the perpetrators.[/quote]

I agree completely. Of course education is the only long-term answer to crime, but it takes a while to grasp. What are we going to do until then?
 
I just finished re-reading Brave New World and you people remind me a lot of the inhabitants of this dystopia...

COMMUNITY, IDENTITY, STABILITY [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":P\" border=\"0\" alt=\"tongue.gif\" /]
 
How's this for a motto:

Replication and Synchronisation

Put differently...

One size fits all!

style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":D\" border=\"0\" alt=\"biggrin.gif\" /]

[!--quoteo(post=132219:date=Mar 16 2006, 02:23 PM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Mar 16 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]132219[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
How's this for a motto:

[i]Replication and Synchronisation[/i]

Put differently...

[i]One size fits all![/i]

[img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":D\" border=\"0\" alt=\"biggrin.gif\" /]
[/quote]


By the way, does this remind you of anyone?

[img src=\"http://home.no.net/holodoc/ordinary1.jpg
 
Wow, Per! You saw how I joked about a tinfoil hat, took an extensively-used internet cliche picture, and alluded that it resembled me!
I can't wait to see what you'll think of next ::
 
9070f510f1e76143cabdc0a4f8f55ee6arguingspecialolympics.jpg


Sorry, mate, I couldn't be more creative in my uncreativity right now [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":P\" border=\"0\" alt=\"tongue.gif\" /]
 
Make note of this day!

Dukey, I don't agree with your stance. I'm afraid that CCTV in the public is not an infringement of my rights. I expect to be observed as I move about in public. In fact, CCTV makes me feel a little safer, and I don't alter my behavior at all. I infact suggest that it's your friend who is odd. As long as I act the way I would normally act, my rights aren't taken away. It's a case of how do you react.

As I write this, the Duke is defending his thesis, a 80 or so page pile of extremely boring environmental history. I don't believe it's possible for him to lose, as I fell asleep twice trying to read it. Even so, I wish the man extreme good luck, and I hope you will all do the same.
 
[!--quoteo(post=132223:date=Mar 16 2006, 03:30 PM:name=LooseCannon)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Mar 16 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]132223[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]As I write this, the Duke is defending his thesis, a 80 or so page pile of extremely boring environmental history. I don't believe it's possible for him to lose, as I fell asleep twice trying to read it. Even so, I wish the man extreme good luck, and I hope you will all do the same.
[/quote]
Ah, thesis defense... I remember that... All the best to old Dukey! [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\"^_^\" border=\"0\" alt=\"happy.gif\" /]


And I'll stick to my guns saying that CCTV everywhere is not a proper answer to crime-fighting. [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":P\" border=\"0\" alt=\"tongue.gif\" /]
 
Very best of luck, Duke! You have to tell me how it went!


As for the killed discussion, I would only like to state that it had a good life, albeit a bit short.
 
[!--quoteo(post=132230:date=Mar 16 2006, 04:14 PM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Mar 16 2006, 04:14 PM) [snapback]132230[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
As for the killed discussion...
[/quote]
Did anyone smother it? [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":(\" border=\"0\" alt=\"sad.gif\" /]
 
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