Racial question

[IronDuke]

I don't mean this in any mean-spirited way, but I'd like to have people's views on race (by that I mean the outward appearances of people from different parts of the world. ie the African 'race' has dark skin and wool-like hair)

Genetically, all human beings are the same, of course. But we can't deny the social and cultural importance attached to the outward appearance of people. Some societies use these differences as grounds for discriminating against certain people (ie Apartheid South Africa). Others claim to attach absolutely no importance to it at all (ie most modern liberal democracies). Still others claim that race is not a basis of discrimination, and yet they presist on treating people of different ancestries in different ways (ie Canada).

What constitutes a "racial" group? What does the word mean to you? Do you unconsciously make judgements about people based on the colour of their skin instead of the content of their character (props to MLK )

If my parents were descendant of South African Boers (Dutch settlers), and immigrated to Canada before I was born, would I be African-Canadian? Were they African to being with? (And if not, were they European? Culturally, they weren't)

 

[JackKnife]

I don't mean this in any mean-spirited way, but I'd like to have people's views on race (by that I mean the outward appearances of people from different parts of the world. ie the African 'race' has dark skin and wool-like hair)

Genetically, all human beings are the same, of course. But we can't deny the social and cultural importance attached to the outward appearance of people. Some societies use these differences as grounds for discriminating against certain people (ie Apartheid South Africa). Others claim to attach absolutely no importance to it at all (ie most modern liberal democracies). Still others claim that race is not a basis of discrimination, and yet they presist on treating people of different ancestries in different ways (ie Canada).

What constitutes a "racial" group? What does the word mean to you? Do you unconsciously make judgements about people based on the colour of their skin instead of the content of their character (props to MLK )

If my parents were descendant of South African Boers (Dutch settlers), and immigrated to Canada before I was born, would I be African-Canadian? Were they African to being with? (And if not, were they European? Culturally, they weren't)

To me, race is a world that must be used with caution. You underlined that all humans were comparable in terms of genetic heritage which is true although there are some minor differences. Races are physically differing for various traits and these phenotypic differences are explained by slightly differing genetic characteristics. "Races" means that to me: only minor genetic and phenotypic differences between individuals that belong to the same bunch of guys (i.e. the Homo sapiens species).

 

[Albie]

I tell you something that troubles me a little, is the use of someones colour of skin to talk about them (often in a slightly aggressive way). As an example, a work colleague recounted how he was hit by another driver using the following words: "I was hit up the backside by a black bastard". Now, he was not intentionally been racists, but obviously this was, as you described it, subconscious. I asked if he really needed to say whether he was black or not, "what would you have said if he was white, a white bastard?" - of course he wouldn't, "but hit up the backside by some bastard" would have sufficed in this situation.

But a problem we have, particularly in the UK, is the discrimination not only of the skin colour, but of the part of the UK you come from. A good example is how my wife and I felt compelled to leave a pub due to the behaviour of a local. we were in a pub in Scotland and been English did not wash with this lady - all because of our accent. I do realise that this is not all one way and the behaviour of some English to other nationalities can be as ridiculous, but it really need not happen at all.

 

[Onhell]

"Race" is a social construct. I refuse to feed the fire of this misconception because someone's outer appearance does not make them a different "race". There is only one race and that is the Human Race. Ethnic groups however do exist and superficial features such as skin color or certain facial features, do play into that. However Ethnic groups also share a language, culture, traditions and strong solidarity. The perfect example is the Jewish ethnicity. Most sport the "stereotypical" crooked nose, they obviously follow the same religion, share Hebrew as their language (Yiddish too), and have an immensely strong sense of community.

The same can be said about the hispanic population in the U.S that has refused to "Americanize".

 

[____no5]

"Race" is a social construct. I refuse to feed the fire of this misconception because someone's outer appearance does not make them a different "race". There is only one race and that is the Human Race. Ethnic groups however do exist and superficial features such as skin color or certain facial features, do play into that. However Ethnic groups also share a language, culture, traditions and strong solidarity. The perfect example is the Jewish ethnicity. Most sport the "stereotypical" crooked nose, they obviously follow the same religion, share Hebrew as their language (Yiddish too), and have an immensely strong sense of community.

The same can be said about the hispanic population in the U.S that has refused to "Americanize".

I agree with you, but we can't compare hispanics and jewish, the last are far more strong, the proof is that they kept their intendity for so long, and they are keeping doing so....

hispanics, are a bit recent in US, and I think after 2 -3 genarations they will be americanized

 

[Onhell]

Very true, But it is still a very traditional group. For example I know many 3rd and 4th generation Hispanics and most comprise this neo-chicano power ideology where they want to get in touch with their heretige and are re-learning spanish (their grandparents were punished for speaking it and their parents never learned it) among other things. Yet There are others, like the girl I'm currently seeing, who could care less and even though she has "brown" skin she claims to be caucassian LOL.

 

[Anonymous]

The word 'race' in combination with human beings describes an antiquated concept and has no further meaning to me.

 

[____no5]

Very true, But it is still a very traditional group. For example I know many 3rd and 4th generation Hispanics and most comprise this neo-chicano power ideology where they want to get in touch with their heretige and are re-learning spanish (their grandparents were punished for speaking it and their parents never learned it) among other things. Yet There are others, like the girl I'm currently seeing, who could care less and even though she has "brown" skin she claims to be caucassian LOL.

1) if after 66.6 generations (jewish case : 2000/30 = 66.6 !!!) hispanics are the 1/ 66 of what the jewish are today then we will can talk

2) I don't know how does she look, but I know that the color doesn't mean nothing, is the characteristics that count you can't call an indian (of india) a black-man, you see ?

 

[Onhell]

1) if after 66.6 generations (jewish case : 2000/30 = 66.6 !!!) hispanics are the 1/ 66 of what the jewish are today then we will can talk

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here

2) I don't know how does she look, but I know that the color doesn't mean nothing, is the characteristics that count you can't call an indian (of india) a black-man, you see ?

Exactly, skin color does mean a lot, you just pointed out yourself with your indian, african analogy. She calls herself caucasian, but GENETICALLY she's hispanic (black hair, brown eyes, olive skin that tans easily). While culturally she may be american, her heretige is different, and will very likely won't disappear for a while (maybe great grandkids).

 

[Genghis Khan]

"Race" is a social construct. I refuse to feed the fire of this misconception because someone's outer appearance does not make them a different "race". There is only one race and that is the Human Race. Ethnic groups however do exist and superficial features such as skin color or certain facial features, do play into that. However Ethnic groups also share a language, culture, traditions and strong solidarity.

The word 'race' in combination with human beings describes an antiquated concept and has no further meaning to me.

This is the view shared by physical anthropologists.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/202915&erFrom=-3913318320695345054Guest

The link deals with fairly old material, but it gets the point across.  During one English class in high school, we were given a newspaper article on the exact topic mentioned in the above link.  Since then I started to share the view of the scientists.  There is nothing more beautiful, in my view, when concepts you and your peers believe should be culturally accepted are in fact supported by science.  Something sacred and surreal happened the day we read that article and had a class discussion.  In our young, naive minds, we felt like all the world's problems could be solved by such scholarly journals. 

The scientists have offered blood type as a better example of “race”, as this is something that is more practically significant.  Given the stubborn conviction by some people in passing judgements on those that are different, one would have to wonder if even this distinction could be used immorally.  No cynicism intended.

I believe that there are a variety of cultures, which need be respected to the degree that the freedoms in that culture are respected.  The concept of race is archaic, as Perun and Onhell stated in their posts.

Dukey, it took a lot of guts to start a thread on a touchy subject.

Aside: It upsets me when someone uses the race card as a first resort to an unfair, yet ambiguous treatment.

 

[____no5]

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here

it's simple : to find the number of generation of jewish exile you divise the years of exile =2000 years by the number that represents one generation =30 years

result=66,6 smile

 

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen, a discussion about Jews in a thread called 'Racial Question' can only be considered as very much off topic... Crooked noses, being good with money and disposing of some sort of (evil) strength are nothing but stereotypes. They have historical and sociological explanations, but nevertheless, they are stereotypes. So please.......

 

[Anonymous]

I do believe that anthropology is a valid scientific field. I also don't deny that there are genetical differences between people. But I think that the racial concept is anachronistic in modern-day society. I do see differences between people when I meet them, and it's undeniable that you immediately spot a person from Asia or Africa, but it doesn't play a role. And it shouldn't.

 

[Anonymous]

If we are to discuss 'race' or 'ethnic differences', whatever the concept may be, we should try and not use stereotyped thinking as argumentation. It's like discussing bad language in bad language.

 

[Anonymous]

With all the terrorism in the world today, we need to be careful about offending people of races that are not like us. Race means alot to me and I am proud of my race. I am proud of what we have achieved as a majority rule, often in the face of adversity. Sure, others will want to bring you down just because you are not of their custom. To me this is just something that goes with the territory and not amount of bombing should dissuade you from the fact that you are free to live your life the way you choose to. We can be caucasian or scandinavian, it doesn't matter. As long as you recognise the boundaries that should be superceded when dealing with issues of race and religion.

I know what it feels like to be picked on - sure I went to school as well. There were kids there who were NOT like you or I and it was an eye opening experience. I learned that not everyone is the same. Culture is not something that can be taught - it is in the blood. In the genes so to speak. It is who you are not who you want to be or who you will marry.

When slavery was abolished late last century we learnt an important message that has echoed down through the ages:

It's better to regret something you have done than to regret something you intended to do.

 

[Anonymous]

The avatar of this person speaks for itself.

 

[Anonymous]

Culture is not something that can be taught - it is in the blood. In the genes so to speak.

I think that the technical term for this kind of statement is "complete and utter rubbish".

The various cultures are taught to the children who are born in a particular environment, regardless of their ethnic origins or gene expression. A white European and a white American will have different cultures, yet they will both be white. Likewise, an Asian born in Britain will be marked by the British culture, whereas one born in India will have Indian culture, yet they will both have the same phenotypical traits. Moreover, a black baby and a white baby born, say, in Europe will develop a European culture; if they'd been born in America, they would have inherited an American one -- you would still get a black and a white individual.

It always makes me fume to hear people talk of races when dealing with the human species. Races in other animals have subtly different genes, whereas humans ethnic groups have different gene expression -- but the same genotype!

As a white European, I have the exact same set of genes as an black African, but those genes are simply expressed differently, hence my different appearance. My culture is inherited from my environment, and not from my genes. My ancestors were violently ransacking the coasts of Europe from their frozen Scandinavian lands and believed in all sorts of god and a Valhalla for the fallen warriors, whereas I was born in a peaceful Christian family who believe in one God and a Heaven for 'nice' people. Considering that I carry the genes of my blood-thirsty forebears, as well as those of my much more calmer closer relatives, what does that make me? Well, I'm a peaceful Atheist who sometimes flips his lid and can become aggressive. Whose fault? My Viking ancestors or my quieter direct parents? Or is it my genes? Honestly, I don't think so.

So do me a favour, you lot... do not confuse nature and nurture, and mostly do not use it as a means to discriminate! 

 

[Anonymous]

I think that the technical term for this kind of statement is "complete and utter rubbish".

I thought it was "pathetic bullshit". Other than that, I agree with you in every detail.

 

[Anonymous]

I thought it was "pathetic bullshit".

That too. It depends on your cultural background! 

 

[Anonymous]

What I particularly dislike is people who spread nonsense while pretending to argue. But I guess a controversial thread like this can always turn into a dump for utter stupidity.