Progressive rock / metal

Since the discussion's been moved here in general, I'll also reply to Jazz here, though I realise it's getting off topic enough as is, but as I see no "Religion" thread apart from "The Pope is dope" or whatever and am afraid to open one...

Thanks, Judas. Well, your name actually seems a bit misleading (even misguiding).

Obviously. :D Let's just say that the choice of the nick has been done based on various factors:

- most important of all, it's meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. I can only hardly imagine someone actually "following" Judas, apart from some of the Gnostics, possibly. Even Andrew Lloyd Webber has made him a bit more humane and sympathetic at best and not a moral paramount.

- despite being Catholic myself (and in some of my moments, I tend to be almost passionately devout), I might not always be that typical in that regard. Anyway, since the nick is obviously a nod to the song (Judas Be My Guide, that is), I feel actually moved by the lyrics in question and I agree. In everyday life, the "Judas" whispers to me sweetly and convincingly, trying to make me throw away my resolutions and hopes, trying to entrap me in the cage of the "modern world", the consumerism, the differing ideas and relativism, tries to support me in my laziness, in my pride, and I listen and follow him gladly, only to stop when it's already late, realise my mistake, repent, make amends, start trying afresh etc. But yes, the Judas from the song is often my guide. And I hope that since I at least realise that, He will be merciful when my last day and my final judgement comes.

- as probably has been apparent from my short time here on the forum (a little over three years), I do not shy away from some very controversal opinions in general, "as if I had been led astray or trying to lead others astray myself so the proverbial traitor might actually be my guide" :D. Of course, from time to time I actually do assume the role of advocatus diaboli with glee, trying to defend different opinions just for the heck of it, since every idea should have its day in a debate, IMHO, but much more often it's actually genuine - I dearly love/hate something (usually love) and then I find out I'm completely alone in that regard. Heck, even my religious beliefs might be deemed controversial on a predominantly metal-oriented forum (believe me, I know what I'm talking about. It ain't always easy being a Christian and a metalhead, since both sides tend to give you a bit of a hard time from time to time)

- even better explanation: I really, really like the song and I believe it to be a forgotten gem off a generally underrated album I tend to like quite a bit. So I put it into my nick.

I personally don't care if Neal Morse calls himself religious, as long as he doesn't preach any fundamentalist views (and doesn't condemn anybody for having a different religion, sexual orientation, life- or deathstyle).

I'm totally convinced Neal Morse is being a very good Christian and he does not condemn anybody for having anything (just like me). If anything, I will give him the benefit of the doubt (BTW - you can condemn certain behaviour of a person that goes against your conscience (or consciousness, as Dream Theater would say :p ), but you are actually required despite that to love everyone unconditionally - you won't be able to, humans being... well, humans, but you should try as best as you can. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" they say).

Creationism is a form of fundamentalism, because it proclaims that God *literally* created the universe in 6 days -- rested on the 7th day, took one of Adam's ribs to create Eve etc. -- therefore science, as well as any religion apart from Judaism and Christianity, *is wrong* (Judaism is actually wrong too, for other reasons).

Yes, creationism probably is a form of fundamentalism, although I would argue here it's pretty harmless as far as fundamentalism goes. If someone chooses to believe Earth is really 6.000 years old, well, that's his fight, but I don't see any harm in that, apart from the person getting weird looks all around (especially if the person otherwise agrees with science where he feels it does not go against the Bible). Even "fundies" might be very nice people, actually, though I won't blame you for thinking otherwise. Yes, there are those foam-mouthed insane bigoted haters who hate everything - Darwin, WASPs, metal, gays, gun legislation, Catholics, women, anyone who does not spit at any of these..., but as I've stated time and again, these people are not what Christians are supposed to be. Really, really not.

This is actually more of a sore spot for me as a Catholic, since this kind of fundamentalism (and literal understanding of Bible) is actually (and I'm talking purely about my mere feelings here) disrespectful to the Bible. But again, that's something to be vexed vigorously and I don't really want to go there. Also, the alt-right and the nutty, Bible-thumping fundies of USA are actually giving a bad name to Christians in general and I'm not fine with that. If I was born in the US, it's possible I might have been an atheist until the day I die. Now I won't deny that Catholics have their own problems and we are not all that scholastic types who'd be the perfect disciples of Aquinas and Augustine, but still...

However, if we want to look at it that way, pretty much every religious conviction (or lack thereof, as with atheism) is "right" and thinks of others they are "wrong". Same with politics. My political standings are "right" and yours are "wrong". Otherwise there's, like, no reason to do it :devil2: And believe me, I've had a lot of disputes with my mother, who's a very agressive atheist and we stand on completely different sides politically. Each of us thinks he's right.

'Intelligent' isn't the word I would use to describe that.

When I said intelligent, I was talking specifically about the "third way" - people not convinced by the scientific arguments presented so far, yet not believing in that "seven days" theory. I mean - don't get me wrong, I'm totally pro-evolution, just trying to defend some other people who don't deserve complete condemnation (wink wink :D ) - all history is merely what we agree it to be. We have numerous dark spots in history, we constantly keep rewriting it (So what did Alexander the Gread died of? How many deaths did Stalin cause exactly? How many Troys have been there and how many times has the city been destroyed/sacked? Were the statues in ancient Greece and Rome painted or not and if, has it been so for all of them/most of them? Where did Spartacus die and what happened to his body? Did dinosaurs have feathers? etc.) and it gets worse the further we go. From what I understand, even the big bang theory has been initially spat upon, because it reminded people too much of the ex-nihilo like the Bible says (the fact it's been first proposed by a Christian didn't help). So it's always up to the person in question and his conclusions, even if there is evidence. That's the main problem with conspiracy theorists, by the way - once they choose to believe there is a conspiracy, there is no way to convince them otherwise, because most people will choose (and we usually go into arguments already prepared). 12 Angry Men is a wonderful movie, but it's just that - a movie.

By the way, since we talk about creationism as a whole, just recently I found out more about that Scopes/Monkey/Inherit the Wind trial and I was in for a very big surprise (for example, the trial being a pro forma show trial in order to generate controversy and to revitalise a region that's been slowly dying and no-one really wanted to breach the law nor uphold it, but I digress again). The movie portrays it very differently.

I don't know Morse enough to know what he actually believes, just saw a few interviews on YT. For example he was asked how he felt about the new album, and he answered he was amazed at how good God made it to be. :lol:

Yep, we tend to give Him credit for our accomplishments while our failings are only ours (however unfair it might seem). Some do it more explicitly than others and Neal's humbleness is actually pretty nice. If anything, it stops him from having that "oh, look at me, I'm a maestro, (*cough *cough Miles Davis *cough *cough Robert Fripp *cough)

But sorry for the enormous digression, now back at Neal:

Not interested in the political/religious discussion, but Neal Morse had a spiritual edge to his lyrics well before he became a Christian. His conversion happened toward the end of his time with Spock's Beard, not sure when. But the early Spock's lyrics were written in the same way, but with less direct references to Christianity.

This is very much true. Actually, I always saw Spock's Beard as the next best thing to Genesis. Not only the sound is very similar (well, to them and to Gentle Giant, I guess) and they all do these little-songs-inside-longer-structures epics, but also with the Gabriel/Morse comparison. Both were definitely "men with a plan", that is, they definitely had a very strong idea where to go, both were very spiritual, quirky, roleplaying (whether it's "a flower" or Senor Velasco), even slightly similar vocally who left the band because they feard fame, after a heavy-on-the-brain double album that was mostly their lyrical child and left the band slightly clueless with the drummer taking on the vocal duties - have I made a mistake here?

My problem with some of the religious content in his lyrics is that it's way too direct. Nothing is left open to interpretation and it borders on preachy. His earlier solo albums are more guilty of this, his recent work has moved away from that. Again I haven't listened to the new album so I have no idea how that compares. It's still possible that he wrote an album based on a Christian book but managed to keep it at least slightly vague I guess.

It is way too direct. But that's his shtick - take it or leave it be. Now 1. I agree with him a lot, 2. even if I didn't, I guess I'd appreciate him being so openly.. ."himself", so I probably wouldn't mind anyway, but if being explicit about this stuff bothers you, you should stay away. It's cool you care about music primarily, because then you have no problem with that. :ok:

On the other hand, speaking from the point of view of a Christian, it often helps, though. There is something cathartic about the ? album that's not just in the music (though that's very important), but also in the lyrics. But I'll leave that for later, since I'm probably not yet prepared to discuss that album fully and to say what I mean exactly. Of course, if either you or Jazz or anyone (or @Saapanael , who at least likes both Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds :D, though this really, really sounds like neither) tell me you have had this cathartic experience anyway, without religious connection, I will reconsider the above and simply give credit to the music. Which just might be - when after the whole album/song it all goes back on the final track (Temple of the Living God 2) and you hear the guitarists wailing over the Another World theme reprise, I cry. Every-f**king-time. It's completely instrumental and it tells more than your average doorstopper book.

I've never heard him condemn anybody for having different views.

Same here. He's such a Teddy bear it would really shock me. But it might happen.

But overall I don't care about the lyrics, as long as the music is good I'm interested. In case you guys don't know, the last two Neal Morse albums are supposed to be a band effort rather than solo projects. On the surface it doesn't seem like much of a difference since Mike Portnoy and the bass player in this band have been all over Neal's solo work since the beginning, but in the past those guys would quickly learn the already written music and record it. Especially Portnoy wasn't that creatively involved since he was constantly busy with DT at the time. Now everybody participates in the writing and it really showed on the last album (The Grand Experiment). Portnoy's best asset has always been his arranging skills. Since Neal Morse's music tends to be rather plain, having Portnoy around to mix it up helps.

You're absolutely right about this, though it still smells of Morse through and through. But yes, this "band experiment" is probably supposed to be just like that, a regular prog group. Small wonder, really, he has tried a lot since he went solo (pop, rock, something rather folkish, Christian prog, doing covers, worship/gospel albums etc.) and I guess he's not afraid of the band experience anymore. Especially with Gillette and Portnoy involved, this cannot go wrong :rocker:

Here's a song from the last Neal Morse Band album that really impressed me and sold me on the project overall. You get vocal parts from different members, a spectacular guitar solo from Eric, and Mike Portnoy's arrangement is perfect. The a capella intro was his idea and I like how the chorus doesn't fully reveal itself until the end of the song. It builds up quite nicely. Very refreshing Morse tune, best thing I've heard him do since the early Transatlantic/Spock's Beard days.

That's a very good pick here - the solo's awesome and the buildup is something to behold - as if lately Neal has been the person truly continuing the Dream Theater legacy :D (in fact, that part around 3:10 reminds me definitely of a DT song - someone refresh my memory!)

Definitely try out Similitude - I really belive that bloke naming it the album of the year wasn't exaggerating... or at least not much. Judging from the reception and various reactions over the net, it might actually be his biggest hit and his overall best-received work since Beard, or Testimony at least.

Also, if anone was interested on another Catholic's point of view regarding Neal - here's something I found: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/1583/sola_gratia_the_prog_foolishness_of_neal_morse.aspx I'm not saying I agree completely (and I don't have to :D ) and it might not even be all that interesting from an atheist's point of view, but still, I dug it up and since I've mentioned those theological differences before, I might just as well put it here. Feel free to ignore it.

In fact, feel free to ignore this post as a whole. :D :spamkiller:
 
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FYI I'm raised catholic. Not devout but I'm familiar enough that I look at Neal's religious work through a catholic lens as well.
 
This is very much true. Actually, I always saw Spock's Beard as the next best thing to Genesis. Not only the sound is very similar (well, to them and to Gentle Giant, I guess) and they all do these little-songs-inside-longer-structures epics, but also with the Gabriel/Morse comparison. Both were definitely "men with a plan", that is, they definitely had a very strong idea where to go, both were very spiritual, quirky, roleplaying (whether it's "a flower" or Senor Velasco), even slightly similar vocally who left the band because they feard fame, after a heavy-on-the-brain double album that was mostly their lyrical child and left the band slightly clueless with the drummer taking on the vocal duties - have I made a mistake here?
The religious imagery in Spock's Beard is very Gabriel-esque. They also emphasize the song over technicality the way Genesis did even at their proggiest. Lots of Gentle Giant too though, I hear that now more after listening to the classic Gentle Giant albums. The band's history also mirrors Genesis in a strange way. Lead singer/creative force leaves band immediately after ambitious double album, replaced by drummer who also leaves later on. Only differences are that Spock's didn't find commercial success without Neal and the album they made after Nick left (Brief Nocturnes and Dreamless Sleep) is probably the best thing they've done since Neal left. Calling All Stations, on the other hand, is easily the worst Genesis album. I also prefer Snow to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Lot more fat on the latter.

It is way too direct. But that's his shtick - take it or leave it be. Now 1. I agree with him a lot, 2. even if I didn't, I guess I'd appreciate him being so openly.. ."himself", so I probably wouldn't mind anyway, but if being explicit about this stuff bothers you, you should stay away. It's cool you care about music primarily, because then you have no problem with that. :ok:
The explicit nature of the lyrics doesn't bother me, but I definitely prefer more vague stuff. Even something like Into the Blue on the last Transatlantic album which is clearly Christian (at least the lyrics Neal wrote), but you could at least interpret it in different ways. What turns me off the most about Neal's recent output is more that he hasn't really evolved as a musician since the first Spock's album. It's a cool style but it's far more hit or miss than other prog groups who try different things constantly. Even modern Dream Theater is more adventurous. That said, I am still discovering his music. As I mentioned in the NP thread, I was really impressed with the One album. My expectations were low, but it might even be better than some Spock's stuff. Don't get me wrong, the Spock's stuff is uneven too, just slightly more consistent.

That's a very good pick here - the solo's awesome and the buildup is something to behold - as if lately Neal has been the person truly continuing the Dream Theater legacy
:D (in fact, that part around 3:10 reminds me definitely of a DT song - someone refresh my memory!)
It's a Metropolis rhythm.

The new Neal Morse is interesting because I think it's actually the first time Portnoy and DT have ever been in direct competition with similar projects (Double concept album). During the ADTOE period Portnoy was doing Adrenaline Mob and Flying Colors so there wasn't much comparison. Then during the DT12 era he was really pushing the Winery Dogs stuff, again totally unrelated to DT. I wish Neal Morse was slightly more well known/popular so that there'd be more debate on Similitude vs The Astonishing. I'd be interested in seeing which one is preferred. I get the feeling Similitude is being better received but I haven't paid too much attention to that. Looking forward to checking it out! I will say that any concept album that has Portnoy involved has a definite edge.
 
You raise some interesting points and it would be interesting to discuss it, but 1. we're still spamming a wrong thread, 2. I'm not Thomas Aquinas and my explanations might just raise other questions, 3. I'm getting kinda tired of fighting on behalf of people who believe in something rather different than I do (though not all Evangelicals are fundamentalists, mind ye).

What I'll say is that the theology we've been talking about (and especially now that you mentioned "sinners" Hindu or homosexuals) is very complicated, not at all internet-friendly and the conclusions might probably surprise you, but let's not get there now. I don't call a Hindu or a homosexual a sinner if that'll suffice.

Anyway, to get back on the right track, I gave a third listen to Similitude today. And I absolutely love it. It completely murders, tortures and obliterates The Astonishing, whatever I might feel about the record. Still, I happened to forget again the fusion track on the first CD. It was really nice. I know Neal's been doing the same thing all over and over again, but if it ain't broken...
 
Best thing about being a Morse fan is the behind the scenes stuff. There's a making of doc for nearly every album he's been involved with since V by Spock's Beard. Also a lot of demos and unreleased stuff available. He's very generous with bonus content. Also something I like about Portnoy. Current DT is sorely lacking in that department.
 
Obtained today:

Van der Graaf Generator - The Aerosol Grey Machine (1969)
The_aerosol_grey_machine.jpg



Peter Hamill - Nadir's Big Chance (1975)
Peter_Hammill_Nadir%27s_Big_Chance.jpg

Hamill's fifth solo album. Have never heard a Hamill solo album before, so I'm curious!

Bruce Dickinson made me enthousiastic about VDGG and Hamill. Indeed darker than the average prog/seventies band. Also bought last week: de second and third VDGG albums: The Least We Can Do Is Wave to Each Other & H to He, Who Am the Only One (both from 1970)
The_Least_We_Can_Do_Is_Wave_to_Each_Other_%28Van_der_Graaf_Generator_album_-_cover_art%29.jpg

H_to_He%2C_Who_Am_the_Only_One_%28Van_der_Graaf_Generator_album_-_cover_art%29.jpg



Camel - Camel (1973)
Camel-Camel.jpg



Jethro Tull - Live in Los Angeles 1980
s-l225.jpg

This is from the same concert the Slipstream video took its audio from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipstream_(video)
 
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All of the albums mentioned in the post above get a hearty recommendation from Judas. Foro, you're a gentleman and a scholar. And I'm drubl. But still...
 
Wow. VDGG were so ahead of time with this album, recorded in December 1969. A special atmosphere. It's dark, intense and at times very heavy! And that without electric guitar. Especially album opener Darkness (11/11), album closer After the Flood and the second half of White Hammer... man. Brilliant. I also hear how Ian Anderson may have been influenced somewhat because I hear a Tullish acoustic riff that sounds quite like the one from After the Flood. The sax playing contributes a lot. I also read that Robert Fripp was very impressed by this record. In my humble opinion, this album wipes the floor with everything King Crimson ever did. Of course, this has a lot to do with personal taste. This music fits more to mine than King Crimson does. This is experimental music, delving in certain areas other (tamer!) prog bands didn't do much. Still there's a lot of nuance. Drummer Guy Evans is great. Looks like I'm going to have a fine ride discovering more albums by these masters.

Rush liked/likes them too!


UGO: In the 1970s, there were lots of amazing progressive rock bands that played very technically complex music. Was that what you were born from?

GEDDY: actually, we were influenced by all the great trios - Cream, Jimi Hendrix, the Who, in a sense were a trio, and even Zeppelin. Those were the first big rock bands that we wanted to emulate. And as our tastes got more obscure, we discovered more progressive rock based, bands like Yes, Van Der Graaf Generator and King Crimson, and we were very inspired by those bands. They made us want to make our music more interesting and more complex and we tried to blend that with our own personalities to see what we could come up with that was indisputably us. That took a while, but I think 2112 was the first record where we accomplished that and created a sound for ourselves.


---
Some Bruce VDGG references:


Excerpts from:

A chat with Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden
Globe Hotel, Stockholm
31 OCT 1998

bus1.jpg


H= Henrik Johansson
B= Bruce Dickinson
M= Mattias Reinholdsson


M= Well, we thought, now you've had Arthur Brown on the record, the next thing would be, what, to co-write some lyrics with Peter Hammill?

B= Oh, no, no, no, you mustn't get into, no! I was talking about this with the manager of Entombed, Dave Thorne, who's a huge Van der Graaf Generator fan and we were talking about how amazing some Van der Graaf Generator songs would sound if a metal band did them. It'd sound really f***ing heavy... I mean, can you imagine "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" done by a real prog metal band, it'd be amazing.

M= Or "Scorched Earth"...

B= Yeah, it's f***ing great. I might get there before them... [laughter] Peter Hammill was one of my childhood lyrical hero's but, you know, you say "Peter Hammill" to most people and they go; "Huh?"... And it's such a shame cause they had so much more to them, I think, than Genesis. They were a bunch of pansies compared to Van der Graaf, really...

H= Alright... Total change of subject. News from Japan: Something about a Samson reunion?

Complete Interview was here:

DIFFERENT INTERVIEW FROM
28 APRIL 1996 STOCKHOLM

A lot of these technical bands like Nektar, Genesis, Yes and some of the more obscure Jethro Tull albums which were very technical. And to me all that stuff was just fiddling around. There's very little of that music that I find moving.

H: But I read somewhere that you were a fan of Van Der Graaf Generator…

B: Oh, yea, I love Van der Graaf cause they were a band that were on the edge, and although they had quite complex arrangements, they made some great sounds. An they were an incredibly depressing band, music to commit suicide to and that's why I loved it, because it was so out there.

You put Van Der Graaf on and you could clear an entire room of people and I loved it. I love music like that. It's the same thing with other bands like Magma these weird jazz rock bands. Arthur Brown too. There's moments of real genius in full clusters in various bits of their music, and I'm into those. I'm not into this "Vulgar display of power", to quote a famous band. The first time you see it, it may be cool, but the second time, it's just boring.

H: Yes. Well, I got this idea of thinking of Van Der Graaf when I read this line in "Solar confinement" saying: "Chaotic energy that sucks the life from H to He".

B: Yes, well spotted. There you go.
H: So you got the idea from there?
B: Yes, "From H to He who am the only one". It's the fundamental life force of the universe, it's what powers the stars.

H: And Peter Hammill lyrics, is that something that's influenced you?

B: Oh, yeah, when I was a kid I used to go through his lyrics with a microscope. Lyric wise I was really into Peter Hammill, Ian Anderson and Gillan. Gillan's lyrics I thought were pretty cool and they were very rock 'n' roll. Especially the early stuff from "Deep Purple in rock". I was never particularly into Robert Plants lyrics. They just never really got to me. I like them more now than I did then. In general I sort of appreciate Zeppelin a bit more now than I did when I was a kid. And Peter Hammill had some really good poetical lyrics which are very cool. I'd like to write more of them in the future.

H: So you write all the lyrics for Skunkworks?
B: Yes
M: And in Samson, did you write the lyrics too?
B: Yea
 
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