Palestine

[Anonymous]

Abbas sacks Hamas-led government

I'm sure that those who follow the news on a regular basis are aware of the current situation in Palestine. For those who are not sure what is happening there, let me give you the basics:
The Palestinian leadership is divided into two major camps, Hamas and Fatah. Both favour the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, but that is where their similarities end. Fatah is a moderate group that favours a democratic Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel, with normal relations, and, most importantly, accepting the existence of Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, is a radical Islamistic group that favours a theocracy similar to Iran (by whom it is supported) and wants Israel wiped off the map.
In general elections, neither Hamas nor Fatah got an absolute majority, so they formed what is essentially a grand coalition (dubbed national unity) headed by president Abbas, of Fatah. Both groups clashed repeatedly, and Palestine was close to -if not in- a civil war several times. Now, Hamas has taken over the Gaza strip while Fatah remains strong in the West Bank. Today, Abbas has dissolved the coalition. What is basically happening is that Palestine gets divided before it is even independent. Pictures and reports from the area -mostly Gaza city- paint a picture of incredible violence mostly from the side of Hamas, who are the ones who keep shooting rockets and sending suicide bombers. Executions and mass murders are the rule now, and Hamas has announced today that it will establish a fundamentalist theocracy in Gaza.

The more I update myself with what is happening there, the more disgusted and cynic I get; as a matter of fact, I now believe that Palestine was better off under Israeli occupation.

 

[Forostar]

Perun, I am not sure if you could say that. If Israel would have given back the lands that they've possessed for 40 years, things might not have turned out so bad as now. Israel are the possessors, the Palestinians are freedom fighters. But of course, what the Hamas does, is absolutely abhorrent!

The fault was to A: allow Hamas in the democratic elections and then B: After Hamas won, they got ignored completely. Fatah took all power.


Now a view on the actual news of today:
This "taking over" action was very organized and well planned. Some say this was all led by strong islamic powers (from Iran, Syria etc.). The Palestinians are working for others to do this. Who will seat on the Gaza-throne soon? Al Queda?

The Hamas extremists have taken complete control of the Gaza Strip, and they just told that "the era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived."

This is only the beginning and it will spread soon. It might get worse since the medicine and food transports to this area will be impossible from now on.

 

[Anonymous]

The fault was to A: allow Hamas in the democratic elections and then B: After Hamas won, they got ignored completely.

I think it is even more basic than that. The fault was to let Palestine have democratic elections in the situation it was in in the first place. During that time, Israeli occupation was still omnipresent, and the second Intifadah was still going on. It was so obvious that people would vote for an anti-Israel party such as Hamas. The state of Palestine should have come into existence first, then there should have been elections.

 

[Forostar]

Could be indeed. But I also look at Isreal more critically these days. There were many opportunities to talk about peace or to give the lands back.

First Isreal will enjoy this situation (let them kill eachother, then we don't have to do it), but soon the fear will grow, because the conflict can spread soon.

 

[LooseCannon]

Israel is using Hamas to wipe out Fatah.  That's all there is to it.  There's no way that Israel will allow Hamas to have a strong base of operations in the Gaza Strip.  Once Abbas proves that his forces cannot stop Hamas (and they can't), he'll have to either ask for international or Israeli aid.  At this point, Israel can come in and smash the shit out of everything that moves in Gaza, Abbas will look like a jackass, and everything goes back 15 years.

 

[Anonymous]

Israel is using Hamas to wipe out Fatah. 

Israel has NOTHING to do with this.

 

[Forostar]

To wipe out Fatah? Read on.

source:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdes ... .htm  -->

JERUSALEM, June 15 (Reuters) - The United States, European states and Israel are considering rapidly easing sanctions in the occupied West Bank to try to bolster Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Western and Israeli officials said on Friday.

A senior European Union diplomat involved in the discussions said Abbas "has strongly requested that we (the EU) support him fully... I think we would generally support this idea, in which form I cannot tell you."

A senior Israeli official said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and U.S. President George W. Bush would discuss at a meeting next week a series of "gestures" that could be taken quickly, including the release to Abbas of a portion of the Palestinian Authority's tax revenues being withheld by Israel.

Western and Israeli officials said the goal would be to strengthen Abbas, his secular Fatah faction and other "moderates" in the West Bank, while isolating Hamas Islamists who seized control of the Gaza Strip in fierce fighting.

An economic and diplomatic embargo of the Hamas administration in Gaza would remain and tightened in some areas.

The officials said the U.S. strategy was based on the premise that strengthening Abbas, and reviving the peace process in the West Bank, would serve to marginalise Hamas and increase Fatah's chances of winning any future elections.

U.S. officials had no immediate comment.

Western donors led by the United States cut off direct financial aid to the Palestinian Authority in March 2006 after Hamas defeated Abbas's Fatah faction in parliamentary elections.

Coupled with Israel's withholding of tax revenues that it collects on the Palestinians' behalf -- the Authority's main domestic source of funding -- the sanctions have pushed the Hamas-led government to the brink of financial collapse.

"If there will be an emergency government without participation of Hamas, then the funds can flow," said a senior Israeli official involved in the internal deliberations. "From our point of view, there isn't a Hamas government any more."

Another senior Israeli official said Israel would go along with U.S. efforts to "throw full-fledged support behind (Abbas) and build him up in the West Bank".

David Makovsky, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said resuming aid to Abbas would show Palestinians that "there's a real contrast between the way Hamas rules in Gaza and Abbas's rules in the West Bank. Let them see that moderation pays."

But some Israeli officials said they were sceptical about a new peace push while Gaza was in Hamas hands. "There won't be any political progress in the West Bank alone. The Palestinians see themselves as one nation," the senior Israeli official said.

TAX REVENUE

Israeli and Western officials said they could turn on the financial taps rapidly since Washington has already given a green light for donors to send funds to a Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) account controlled by Salam Fayyad, expected to be prime minister in the emergency government.

"From our point of view, there is no problem for money to go to the PLO account if there isn't a Hamas government," a senior Israeli official involved in overseeing the embargo said.

A senior Western diplomat said: "The emergency government could work out of the PLO account for a start and the money would be controlled in the West Bank."

The Western diplomat said the biggest question would be whether the emergency government would pay salaries to government workers in the Gaza Strip.

Israel has signalled a willingness to transfer withheld tax revenues, but far less than the $700 million sought by Abbas.

 

[LooseCannon]

I'm not accusing Israel of anything other than inaction, Perun.  If I could forsee a Palestinian breakdown and civil war, then so could they.  Palestine destroying itself *only* helps Israel, because they can then prove Palestine incapable of statehood.  They won't allow a challenge to their power in the form of Hamas; all they need is an excuse.  This is providing them with it.

 

[Natalie]

I see your point LC, although I find it uncharacteristically cynical of you to say that Israel wants Palestinian breakdown and will watch while Hamas wipes out Fatah. Following from what Forostar pointed out, it looks more like Israel will want to support Fatah in order to wipe out Hamas. While I think this conflict is bad, it seems like a good opportunity for the West to show support for a Palestinian nation, albeit one under control of the moderates. The fact that Israel might give back some of the Palestinian taxes to Abbas might prove enough for the Palestinian people to vote for a more moderate party next time elections come around (if they ever do).

In conclusion, I think this newest issue sort of proves what Perun says, which is that Palestine should not have had democratic elections while the occupation from Israel was still fresh in everyone's mind. Lets hope that a peaceful solution is found, and that as quickly as possible mainly for the sake of the people (women, children, families, etc) living in the Gaza strip.

 

[LooseCannon]

I suppose I have a long, deepseeded distrust of Israel, who seem to go out of their way to violate some basic human rights, constantly.  Though the newest administration is more reputable than the Sharon one, mind you.

 

[Anonymous]

I used to be one of those typical leftist sheep that were absolutely pro-Palestine and anti-Israel. Then I woke up one day and realized that Israel is defending itself. Sure, you can argue that the means the government and army choose to do it with are sometimes out of order, but so was the entire second Intifadah (and the first, and the Yom Kippur War, and the Six Days War, and all the others). Before you judge Israel, just try to consider the fact that the country actually is threatened.

 

[LooseCannon]

I understand that Israel is in a very unenviable situation, and that it is situated between many foes, and the result tends to be quite interesting in cases.  I wouldn't want to be in their shoes, and I usually agree with a lot of their policies, even the aggressive hunting of Hamas leaders.  I just wonder why Israel is sitting during this situation, letting a very powerful internal threat grow stronger.

 

[Anonymous]

and the result tends to be quite interesting in cases.

And I thought I was cynic.

I just wonder why Israel is sitting during this situation, letting a very powerful internal threat grow stronger.

I believe they've simply had enough of it. It's a situation where Israel can enjoy a bit of peace. Notabene, Israel has stated that it would supply relief for the civilians in the Gaza strip if need be. Besides, it's easy to point at Israel and say "you're not doing anything!" Why don't you ask why Egypt isn't doing anything?

 

[Forostar]

I used to be one of those typical leftist sheep that were absolutely pro-Palestine and anti-Israel. Then I woke up one day and realized that Israel is defending itself.

I kind of went through the opposite fase, mate.

Recently I found out how it all really started. Check this interesting TV program.
It's in Dutch but it has English subtitles:

http://www.deepjournal.nl/p/7/a/en/729.html

 

[LooseCannon]

Alright, Per.  I'll step in with that: why isn't Egypt or Jordan doing anything, either?  Because the West Bank is still, somewhat, under Israel's jurisdiction, and fighting Israel isn't on their top 10 things to do this century.

 

[Natalie]

Very interesting TV program Forostar. It's really made me rethink my stance on the situation in the Middle East. But I will not commit myself to being either pro or anti Israel. Both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist as countries and its just unfortunate that nobody bothered to do the math after WWII (that jews couldn't just settle in former Israel after a millenium because other people were now living there that also consider it their home).

 

[Forostar]

The TV-programm gave me more insight about the expectations of the Palestinians. They're waiting for 40 years, and it's time for Israel to move. Unfortunately the Hamas actions will prolongue the occupation, I'm afraid.


Now I also understand why the Palestinians voted for Hamas. Abbas didn't do anything with the expectations of the Palestinians. Their voices are ignored by the rest of the world as well. So Hamas got their protest-vote.

Time for me to be a cynic:
The west only helps the minority government that they like. They don't think about the Palestinians themselves enough. Especially the USA thinks more about Israel (the occupators) than about the people of Palestina.

 

[Glory2Hypnotoad]

Forostar, you can't blame Israel for possessing the land. Israel has given up land for peace multiple times and it's backfired on them almost every time.

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I'm with Perun on this one. Can you blame Israel for not wanting to get into another violent conflict? Israel's first priority is and must always be the protection of its own citizens as long as groups like Hamas exist. I can understand that Israel's reactions have been extreme and in some cases uncalled for, but look at how much America has changed after a single terrorist attack six years ago. I don't mean to trivialize 9/11 but if anything that should show how the constsnt threat of terrorism can change any country's foreign policy.

And is it really shocking to anyone that the West supports Isreal over hamas when Hamas' goal is to establish a fundamentaist theocary with an obvious anti-Israel, anti-West agenda. Also, much of the West is Israel's ally because Israel has hisrocally been their ally as well. The same cannot be said of hamas of Fatah, though I wil admit that Fatah's intentions are far better that Hamas'.

 

[Forostar]

Forostar, you can't blame Israel for possessing the land. Israel has given up land for peace multiple times and it's backfired on them almost every time. 

I disagree with you on that. Just watch the TV-program and you’ll see why. Til this very day Israel didn’t mark its exact borders officially. Which Israel should be recognized?

I'm with Perun on this one. Can you blame Israel for not wanting to get into another violent conflict? 

No.

Israel's first priority is and must always be the protection of its own citizens as long as groups like Hamas exist.

Agreed

And is it really shocking to anyone that the West supports Isreal over hamas when Hamas' goal is to establish a fundamentaist theocary with an obvious anti-Israel, anti-West agenda.

No, not shocking, but it should be time to get more balance in the attention. Many Palestinians are not very religious by the way. Again I’ll tell you that the vote for Hamas was a protest-vote. I bet that a majority of the Palestinians do not like the way Hamas is dealing with this conflict. They’re not dumb, they see that this doesn’t bring them closer to what they want.

Also, much of the West is Israel's ally because Israel has hisrocally been their ally as well.

That’s indeed historically the case. But wasn’t Germany once an ally with other countries? Times change, but people change as well, especially when they are oppressed and when they can't find a listening ear for their cries.

The same cannot be said of hamas of Fatah, though I wil admit that Fatah's intentions are far better that Hamas'.

Until now Fatah hasn’t been very useful either. They haven’t done a single thing for Palestina. They only added more oil to the fire because of their inactivities. Abbas is a marionet and the USA is pulling the strings!

I’ll tell you this. Communication is the only way to get any progression in this conflict. Look at Northern Ireland. Recently a new government has been installed, consisting of Catholics and Protestants (enemies for decades). This was only possible after talking with terrorists (IRA).

So in the end I agree that Israel has reasons to protect their people, but they should not ignore the other side. Nor should the rest of the world.

The Palestinians are the victims. They have lost their land and many more human lives than Israel.

 

[Natalie]

"Recently a new government has been installed, consisting of Catholics and Protestants (enemies for decades). This was only possible after talking with terrorists (IRA)."

I may have misunderstood you on this one Forostar, but I doubt that a government will be set up consisting of both Israelis and Palestinians. There are just too many obstacles.