Official thread for Final Frontier discussion
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Play Classics!
Prowler
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
It was never about liking non-classic Maiden. Read my post again, please. It's about constantly calling every new song the best song, or every new album the best album.
Eddies Wingman said:
It was never about liking non-classic Maiden. Read my post again, please. It's about constantly calling every new song the best song, or every new album the best album.
The Mid-Distance Runner
Educated Fool
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
MadMax - I agree with every word you have written above. 10 out of 10 for your summation. The intro may be directly related to the outro of the opener. With the left/centre/right guitars noticeable I love the licks played by Janick (right) then Dave (left) during the second verse prior to the second pre-chorus. Bruce sounds fine - if anyone heard him during the last tour his voice is better than it has been for a long, long time. He is clearly singing to fit the song in this one. As a rocker this song has so much inside of it and it has real swagger - the last time I think Maiden swaggered was Holy Smoke. And lastly it is as heavy as their previous release.
MadMax - I agree with every word you have written above. 10 out of 10 for your summation. The intro may be directly related to the outro of the opener. With the left/centre/right guitars noticeable I love the licks played by Janick (right) then Dave (left) during the second verse prior to the second pre-chorus. Bruce sounds fine - if anyone heard him during the last tour his voice is better than it has been for a long, long time. He is clearly singing to fit the song in this one. As a rocker this song has so much inside of it and it has real swagger - the last time I think Maiden swaggered was Holy Smoke. And lastly it is as heavy as their previous release.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Well, people on this forum generally don't do that, so your criticism should really be pointed somewhere else. That people like the new single doesn't make them fanboys that would praise anything as long as it came from Maiden (even if it was an album packed with assassins and chains of misery).
Generally, people on this forum encourage each other to give reasons for their opinions. Just saying that Hallowed Be Thy Name is the greatest song ever, without explaining why you think that, will not impress anyone on here, not even those who agree (that is, many). Just the same way, people will not buy "Look For The Truth is the greatest song ever" without reasoning. But one is not ridiculed for thinking so.
Play Classics! said:
Well, people on this forum generally don't do that, so your criticism should really be pointed somewhere else. That people like the new single doesn't make them fanboys that would praise anything as long as it came from Maiden (even if it was an album packed with assassins and chains of misery).
Generally, people on this forum encourage each other to give reasons for their opinions. Just saying that Hallowed Be Thy Name is the greatest song ever, without explaining why you think that, will not impress anyone on here, not even those who agree (that is, many). Just the same way, people will not buy "Look For The Truth is the greatest song ever" without reasoning. But one is not ridiculed for thinking so.
Donner
Ancient Mariner
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
I see a lot of folks stating they don't care for Bruce's vocals (not necessarily on this board mind you), but I'm not sure this is the sort of song that calls for insane vocal histrionics. In fact, I really dig the more laid back approach on the verses on this tune.
I see a lot of folks stating they don't care for Bruce's vocals (not necessarily on this board mind you), but I'm not sure this is the sort of song that calls for insane vocal histrionics. In fact, I really dig the more laid back approach on the verses on this tune.
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Ahem.
I think the behaviour Play Classics! has been talking about is somewhat present. It's been 4 years. We're all going through withdrawal. I know for a fact that they had to grind up two bootlegs of Iron Maiden and a recent Dio album into a blender and give it to Forostar intravenously last week, just to get him up to this point, and I'm pretty sure Perun has been smoking rolled up old tour posters during his exile. Plus, we have a ton of new folk, who may very well be showing a lot of excitement.
But for the record. I like the new song. It has a lot of what I enjoy in a Maiden song. It wouldn't fit on Powerslave. But I don't care about that, because I think most of Maiden's recent stuff is just as good as their 80s stuff. But it's clearly not their best song ever.
After all, that's Paschen-fucking-dale!
Ahem.
I think the behaviour Play Classics! has been talking about is somewhat present. It's been 4 years. We're all going through withdrawal. I know for a fact that they had to grind up two bootlegs of Iron Maiden and a recent Dio album into a blender and give it to Forostar intravenously last week, just to get him up to this point, and I'm pretty sure Perun has been smoking rolled up old tour posters during his exile. Plus, we have a ton of new folk, who may very well be showing a lot of excitement.
But for the record. I like the new song. It has a lot of what I enjoy in a Maiden song. It wouldn't fit on Powerslave. But I don't care about that, because I think most of Maiden's recent stuff is just as good as their 80s stuff. But it's clearly not their best song ever.
After all, that's Paschen-fucking-dale!
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Yeah, I noticed those. Typical H. He's the one who spices up the guitar melodies with those little details now and then.
Forostar said:
Yeah, I noticed those. Typical H. He's the one who spices up the guitar melodies with those little details now and then.
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Knowing H, he might have just done it without being told to, anyway.
Knowing H, he might have just done it without being told to, anyway.
wsoul1
Trooper
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
I for one like the fact that they did not double up or "enhance" Dickinsons vocals. The guy has been belting it out for over 30 years. Is he as vibrant as he was back in the day? No! But he is still great! Looking forward to MSG on July 12th, show #39 for me.
I for one like the fact that they did not double up or "enhance" Dickinsons vocals. The guy has been belting it out for over 30 years. Is he as vibrant as he was back in the day? No! But he is still great! Looking forward to MSG on July 12th, show #39 for me.
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
In the chorus? Yeah.
In the chorus? Yeah.
chaosapiant
Ancient Marinade
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Personally, I think it's amazing that Iron Maiden can still make their music sound new and fresh. All Maiden albums still sound like Maiden. The devil is in the details. This song is probably not the most representative of the other music on the album, but in itself it is a great fun track. I can't wait to hear it live on July 20th!
Personally, I think it's amazing that Iron Maiden can still make their music sound new and fresh. All Maiden albums still sound like Maiden. The devil is in the details. This song is probably not the most representative of the other music on the album, but in itself it is a great fun track. I can't wait to hear it live on July 20th!
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Dunno. Doubled are his vocals in The Thin Line between Love and Hate.
That is John Huston and Michael Caine.
No seriously, I have this film on DVD and still need to see it (like hundreds of others).
Now my aim is to see it before the album comes out, to get more into the song.
The third actor is also a great one: Christopher Plummer who incidentallly also played in the film Aces High (1976), which actually was about WWI, hehe! Awesome aerial dogfight photography, esp. for that time.
Mega said:
Dunno. Doubled are his vocals in The Thin Line between Love and Hate.
Will-I-Am said:The Man Who Would Be King is an awesome John Houston film with Sean Connery & Michael Cane. Awesome.
The subject of the film is Alexander The Great, somewhere in (modern) time(s)
Which connects The Final Frontier even more with Somewhere In Time.
That is John Huston and Michael Caine.
No seriously, I have this film on DVD and still need to see it (like hundreds of others).
Now my aim is to see it before the album comes out, to get more into the song.
The third actor is also a great one: Christopher Plummer who incidentallly also played in the film Aces High (1976), which actually was about WWI, hehe! Awesome aerial dogfight photography, esp. for that time.
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
And he was a Klingon who quotes Shakespeare.
And he was a Klingon who quotes Shakespeare.
Jeffmetal
Ancient Mariner
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Loved what MadMax wrote. The part of incobtrolable laughing happened exactly with me as the song started. Man, Bruce's incredible! This 'he's not as vibrant as before' is relative. I think his is as vibrant as he could be at this age, just as he was as vibrant as he could be 10, 15, 20, 25 or 30 years ago! You can't fight biology, you can't fight time! Otherwise, Pele, Beckenbauer, Rivellino, Lineker, Crujiff would be still playing (and I could tackle another test aiming a football career in the future.
).
MadMax, thanx for the Rockline mp3. I listened yesterday, but I missed some parts.
Loved what MadMax wrote. The part of incobtrolable laughing happened exactly with me as the song started. Man, Bruce's incredible! This 'he's not as vibrant as before' is relative. I think his is as vibrant as he could be at this age, just as he was as vibrant as he could be 10, 15, 20, 25 or 30 years ago! You can't fight biology, you can't fight time! Otherwise, Pele, Beckenbauer, Rivellino, Lineker, Crujiff would be still playing (and I could tackle another test aiming a football career in the future.
).MadMax, thanx for the Rockline mp3. I listened yesterday, but I missed some parts.
Re: Discussion thread for Final Frontier/El Dorado single
Given Bruce Dickinson's love of things occult and strange, it should be no surprise that a poem by Poe serves as the likely inspiration for the lyrical portion of the song "El Dorado". Indeed, it goes a long way towards explaining the presence of a quick riff in the song, because those of us who know anything about the legend of El Dorado are aware that the search for the mythical City of Gold was usually undertaken not by horse, but by boat, imagery constantly referred to in the song.
The legend of El Dorado comes from the conquered Muisca people, who would tell legends of a chieftain named El Dorado who swam whilst covered in gold dust in Lake Guatavita. From this arose the myth amongst the Spanish conquistadores of a City of Gold that supplied the Muisca people with their wealth - a people who had no gold mines of their own, but traded for the precious material easily from other tribes. Over the passing centuries, the myth of El Dorado multiplied, grew, and expanded, with many explorers searching the thick jungles of South America for the lost city.
Interestingly, the tale of "El Dorado" is told from the perspective of someone recruiting people for an expedition to find the mythical lost city, rather than as a neutral observer (consider the voice used in songs like "Rime of the Ancient Mariner", in which a fable is told, but from the outside). As such, we are taken inside the mind and speech of a man knowing he is luring the innocent to their death for his own profit.
The first verse introduces us to the character, someone who looks clean and smooth and very professional, and who speaks to someone, telling them a story that will have them so ready to whisk off in hopeless exploration that they'll be buying the ticket he offers before he can think it through. This is telling us that the character Bruce portrays is a scam artist, someone who is completely sure of his ability to cheat money and life from his victim. The term "snake oil" refers to a "snake oil salesman", which is an American slang term for conman. His personal snake oil, then, is the story of El Dorado, and the promises of glory and money within. That's his cheat. It's just what he sells.
Bruce describes the character from the first person, explaining this man knows exactly what he's doing and what fate he's condemning his "clients" to. He has no regrets about the lethal consequences of his trick ("the jester with no tears") and he is taking advantage of people who are afraid of dying either nearly poor or unknown ("playing on your fears"). The "mask of love and death" is the story he tells of El Dorado, the fabled place from which none have ever returned - except for you, because he knows you're the one to find the City of Gold - his eternal lie. Of course, the tale of El Dorado goes far beyond our conman, and probably will last for the end of time. Finally, his tale, persuasive, has you fully drawn in - "hooked at every turn" - and your body will be consumed by your poor decision to listen to the trickster.
Now, the mark (the term for someone being defrauded in a con) has decided to ask for a little reassurance that Bruce is telling the truth and not just selling him a fib, but of course, the practiced fraudster dodges the request for contact information, for a legal contract, by reminding the poor fellow that he can take the offer for glory and gold, or leave it on the table. And we have final confirmation "if I didn't lie to ya, then I wouldn't exist" that this person's sole income comes from cheating; a professional conman.
Interestingly enough, we move back towards the abstract with this verse, when Bruce extrapolates on the overall meaning of being cheated. That everyone knows "someone just like me" and that being betrayed is "the same old same old way". He compares himself to a magician's "smoke and mirrors", and even to a "clever banker". It almost sounds like the conman is trying to convince himself that he's part of an ancient tradition, and that he is the same as a magician who lies and cheats to entertain, or a banker who will use loopholes to cheat someone, though he is stealing both money and life with his lies.
The chorus is the hook and the legend. Streets of gold, and all you have to do is come and play, step this way. So many people are coming along, there's only one spot left - and it's yours, if you dare to chance.
The reality of the con. There is no glory, or is there gold. The trickster has taken both from his mark and left them with nothing other than a one-way ticket to death. And of course, the loss of one more soul on the road to El Dorado is a story that'll hardly be told. As already established, the trickster knows he is doing wrong, he is a devil, and he revels in it. You accuse him of being evil, and he smiles and continues to cheat and defraud.
He's spun his web and he's issued the con, and the lie has grown "big and bad and twice as bold" as the conman's tale gets more risky, more wild, and more opulent. However, he's still sold enough to fill the doomed ship with tickets, and it's either overloaded with people, or sailing away to doom. After all, "there is no easy way for an honest man today" to make the sort of money our fraud did, and he is reminding the soon-to-be-deceased of this as he hops in his boat and pulls away, laughing, to presumably repeat the trick with new marks.
Of course, this song can serve as a metaphor for any number of illicit activities, such as drug use or even alcoholism, but it makes the most sense when approached from the promise of riches in something like the stock market, or a Ponzi scheme. However, I think it's mostly just intended to be a tale of a man who sold the story of El Dorado like many did - a false hope for any predator to leap upon. And consider it a warning - when someone tells you something that sounds too good to be true…it probably is.
Edgar Allen Poe said:
Given Bruce Dickinson's love of things occult and strange, it should be no surprise that a poem by Poe serves as the likely inspiration for the lyrical portion of the song "El Dorado". Indeed, it goes a long way towards explaining the presence of a quick riff in the song, because those of us who know anything about the legend of El Dorado are aware that the search for the mythical City of Gold was usually undertaken not by horse, but by boat, imagery constantly referred to in the song.
The legend of El Dorado comes from the conquered Muisca people, who would tell legends of a chieftain named El Dorado who swam whilst covered in gold dust in Lake Guatavita. From this arose the myth amongst the Spanish conquistadores of a City of Gold that supplied the Muisca people with their wealth - a people who had no gold mines of their own, but traded for the precious material easily from other tribes. Over the passing centuries, the myth of El Dorado multiplied, grew, and expanded, with many explorers searching the thick jungles of South America for the lost city.
Interestingly, the tale of "El Dorado" is told from the perspective of someone recruiting people for an expedition to find the mythical lost city, rather than as a neutral observer (consider the voice used in songs like "Rime of the Ancient Mariner", in which a fable is told, but from the outside). As such, we are taken inside the mind and speech of a man knowing he is luring the innocent to their death for his own profit.
The first verse introduces us to the character, someone who looks clean and smooth and very professional, and who speaks to someone, telling them a story that will have them so ready to whisk off in hopeless exploration that they'll be buying the ticket he offers before he can think it through. This is telling us that the character Bruce portrays is a scam artist, someone who is completely sure of his ability to cheat money and life from his victim. The term "snake oil" refers to a "snake oil salesman", which is an American slang term for conman. His personal snake oil, then, is the story of El Dorado, and the promises of glory and money within. That's his cheat. It's just what he sells.
Bruce describes the character from the first person, explaining this man knows exactly what he's doing and what fate he's condemning his "clients" to. He has no regrets about the lethal consequences of his trick ("the jester with no tears") and he is taking advantage of people who are afraid of dying either nearly poor or unknown ("playing on your fears"). The "mask of love and death" is the story he tells of El Dorado, the fabled place from which none have ever returned - except for you, because he knows you're the one to find the City of Gold - his eternal lie. Of course, the tale of El Dorado goes far beyond our conman, and probably will last for the end of time. Finally, his tale, persuasive, has you fully drawn in - "hooked at every turn" - and your body will be consumed by your poor decision to listen to the trickster.
Now, the mark (the term for someone being defrauded in a con) has decided to ask for a little reassurance that Bruce is telling the truth and not just selling him a fib, but of course, the practiced fraudster dodges the request for contact information, for a legal contract, by reminding the poor fellow that he can take the offer for glory and gold, or leave it on the table. And we have final confirmation "if I didn't lie to ya, then I wouldn't exist" that this person's sole income comes from cheating; a professional conman.
Interestingly enough, we move back towards the abstract with this verse, when Bruce extrapolates on the overall meaning of being cheated. That everyone knows "someone just like me" and that being betrayed is "the same old same old way". He compares himself to a magician's "smoke and mirrors", and even to a "clever banker". It almost sounds like the conman is trying to convince himself that he's part of an ancient tradition, and that he is the same as a magician who lies and cheats to entertain, or a banker who will use loopholes to cheat someone, though he is stealing both money and life with his lies.
The chorus is the hook and the legend. Streets of gold, and all you have to do is come and play, step this way. So many people are coming along, there's only one spot left - and it's yours, if you dare to chance.
The reality of the con. There is no glory, or is there gold. The trickster has taken both from his mark and left them with nothing other than a one-way ticket to death. And of course, the loss of one more soul on the road to El Dorado is a story that'll hardly be told. As already established, the trickster knows he is doing wrong, he is a devil, and he revels in it. You accuse him of being evil, and he smiles and continues to cheat and defraud.
He's spun his web and he's issued the con, and the lie has grown "big and bad and twice as bold" as the conman's tale gets more risky, more wild, and more opulent. However, he's still sold enough to fill the doomed ship with tickets, and it's either overloaded with people, or sailing away to doom. After all, "there is no easy way for an honest man today" to make the sort of money our fraud did, and he is reminding the soon-to-be-deceased of this as he hops in his boat and pulls away, laughing, to presumably repeat the trick with new marks.
Of course, this song can serve as a metaphor for any number of illicit activities, such as drug use or even alcoholism, but it makes the most sense when approached from the promise of riches in something like the stock market, or a Ponzi scheme. However, I think it's mostly just intended to be a tale of a man who sold the story of El Dorado like many did - a false hope for any predator to leap upon. And consider it a warning - when someone tells you something that sounds too good to be true…it probably is.