Official Football Thread

Fuck, how embarrassing. Losing to Wales could be accepted, but 3-0? We were totally owned much of the time. Koumas humiliated us. Of course, the majority of our players are off-season as the Norwegian league doesn't start before a week after Easter, but still ... I don't think I want to talk, write or think much about football for the next few days.

Crap.
 
You're way better at this than me, it seems!

Croatia-Holland: 0-3!

A nice match to watch, especially the first half. The Dutch really played well, and had about 55% ball possession! Thanks to the class of Van der Sar, our goal was kept clean.

Congrats to your home team. Altrough we offered most powerless play i've seen in years, and altrough crucial mistakes can be tagged onto one player only, Holland was cool-headed, great tactics, and they declassed us.

This should cut some wings for our team. The team is really great and we expect much from them on Euro 2008, but after we declassed England on Wembley, press started talking like we're the kings of universe. Good because it should cool the team's heads and ground them a bit.

I believe Bilic is a very smart man and an excellent coach. He didn't say anything like "we had a bad night", or "some of our players didn't start their league games yet", because he knows when you get to the Euro2008, especially in knockout phase, each game counts. You can't lose the quarterfinals and say we had a bad night.

I think we're excellent, but i also think we should work a bit on the "competetive tactics". You know, the thing that ensured Denmark's Euro2008 handball gold. We didn't have that, so we ended with the silver.

By the way, if you've watched the game tonight, Maiden is playing at that venue 10.08.
 
Eddies Wingman said:
And for Sir Bobby - of course I don't hope he keeps alive just for the European Cups, I meant to say I wish him the best for the years to come, I hope there will be many years and I am sure he would like to witness United lifting that trophy again  :)
I knew what you meant. :) It much the same reasoning behind me wanting to see his face if (and this is a big if) he was present to see England win a major trophy. He was (and still is) a great ambassador for English football and Man U.

No real surprises in the England Switzerland match. England won and the Swizz tried to nullify the game. And there was some positives to draw from Capello's first game (and not that many negatives), but it was just one game and a friendly. I think things will be much clearer this time next year. Should England be in a strong position in their qualification group for 2010, I'll be happy. Next stop for England, France away.
 
Did people in England raise any eyebrows after knowing that Croatia lost with 0-3 vs Holland? You could say it was a friendly but there was a lot of fouls committed and it sure looked like a serious match.
 
I haven't seen much reaction to the Dutch/Croatia game, so I can't really say. One thing I don't do is read many newspapers - so if there was a report about it, I would have missed it.

Blame Rupert Murdoch for my lack of faith in today's press. ;)
 
Ladies and gentlemen:

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528, ... 24,00.html

What do you English fellas think about this? As a follower of English football since I was 10, I must say this makes me want to :puke:. I mean, are there anything to motivate this, except milking the money cow even more? Isn't the Premiership commercial enough? If they put this through I think I'll have to give up on PL and if I'm going to follow an English team besides my Norwegian one I'll have to find something in League One.

Any more bids, anyone? First, second, and SOLD! Reading-Bolton sold to Singapore for £ 1 Million.

Give me a paper bag, please. I need to vomit.
 
Forostar said:
I meant including your eyebrows(?) ;)
The Dutch do have a good team, so it did not surprise me that they beat the Croatians - but the scoreline was more than I would expected. So, in that respect - my eyebrows did raise a little.

But not as much as when I read about the story above from EW. I heard this on the news yesterday and then read it on the Beeb's website - just to confirm it was not an early April Fool's prank. It is a complete nonsense but it is no different to the NFL staging a competitive match at Wembley last year (the game that ripped up the Wembley turf prior to the England Croatia game). But for some reason I can see this happening and it will destroy the fabric of this league - and I understand this will be during the month of January - when the FA cup is in it's third round.

If this did come about, I would prefer that any result gained from these matches are not counted towards the overall league positions - but can be counted if two teams remain deadlocked come the end of the season.

Eddies Wingman said:
.....and if I'm going to follow an English team besides my Norwegian one I'll have to find something in League One.
There's a team from Essex based on the edge of the Thames estuary that could do with some more support. :D
 
Eddies Wingman said:
Any more bids, anyone? First, second, and SOLD! Reading-Bolton sold to Singapore for £ 1 Million.

I see nothing wrong with this.  Sure, it is partially financially motivated, but hockey and basketball have been doing this for quite some time.  The idea is to test the viability of league expansion, or the addition of a premier league in Asia.  I don't think it is financially viable to move franchises to Singapore, or NYC, when all the games are played primarily in North-East Europe.  Additional franchises?  Likely, but moving one or two teams?  Not so.
 
Remember now that sports culture in the US is quite different from in Europe. NHL, NBA and so on have been corporations on their own for a long time and I have the impression that the big team sports in the US have been an "entertainment business" all the time. On the other hand, professional football in England were established by "everyday people" in their local communities. Many in connection to a church, a school or a specific working place. For example, Coventry City was founded by workers at the Singer factory and Manchester United was founded (under the name Newton Heath) by railroad workers in a part of Greater MAnchester. The connection between the football clubs and their local community, be it the Tottenham district in London or Salford in Manchester, has traditionally been very strong.

What upsets the English football fans is that ever since the Premier League was established as a brand (and as a "corporation" consisting of the clubs that at any time play in the highest division in England) in 1992, it seems like the clubs don't care as much for their fans and local community, but instead see themselves as products to sell and the supporters as customers. Moving league games abroad will be a large manifestation of this - as it shows that the clubs want to exploit their fanbase abroad. Many football fans frown just upon hearing the word "franchise" in relation to football clubs.

This is the emoitonal bit around this idea. There is also a competition side to it: The proposal says 39 games a season with some kind of seeded draw for the additional 10 games (who are to be played abroad). This means two sides competing for the league title can draw very different opposition. Say the top 5 are seeded (and thus cannot play each other) but apart from this the draw has no limitations. Team A are 1 point ahead of team B when the 39th game is not counted. But team A draw the 6th best team and have to play in Tokyo. At the same time, team B draw team 19 who are already relegated and have f*ck all to play for. And the game is to be played in South Africa (thus no jet lag). It will most certainly alter the fairness of the competition.

I think, if the Premiership clubs feel they need to play abroad then they could stick to playing pre-season friendly matches away from home. ANY decisive matches should be played where their local fans can go and see them without having to splash out £1000 in plane tickets! Imagine Liverpool securing their first league title since 1990 playing Derby County in Singapore ... sure, it would be great fun for those who live in Singapore. But for those who live in Merseyside and have to watch the game on TV before noon and wait for a day or two before they could welcome the players with the trophy?

(It should be said that I wouldn't like Liverpool to win the league in a long time yet, after all I follow one of their rivals, but I didn't feel I could use Man United as the example yet again  ;))

No. The league, the games, the clubs, belong to the places where they have been established. Where their season-ticket holders, the week in-week out fans, live. Where the heart and soul of the clubs is located.

Further - building this distance to local fans is a two-edged sword. Sure, it gives the clubs a potentially greater annual turnover. But, if a club should fail to have success (as in failing to qualify for the European cups) for a couple of seasons - or if the league itself should lose some of its attractivity - then the clubs would really suffer if their local support isn't there for them. And with today's rapidly rising ticket prizes, more and more traditional working fans can't afford season tickets, so it is an actual risk. The big clubs have to qualify for the Champions League and the bottom sides at least have to stay up, or it could mean big trouble.

What I say is that the Premiership clubs are gambling with their future. All their marketing cannot and won't secure loyalty from those who have helped the league to become big.

(As an end comment I must, as a follower of Manchester United, say that I am puzzled thinking of how Sir Alex Ferguson, who comes from a family of Glasgow shipyard workers, can stay at one of the clubs that, unfortunately, are leading in the commercializing of English football. Has he become part of the moneymaker society that runs the show in the PL, or has he just accepted that football has become what it has and to keep United on top, he realizess the board has to do it this way? I like to think that he, and the other managers, are against the development just like many supporters, and have closer emotional bonds to the fans than to the club and league boards. But am I thinking too well about the managers? Perhaps they too are enthusiastic about branding and exploiting markets?)

Well. Writing this hasn't made my mood any better. I think I'll get down to the city centre, more precisely to the record store, and get the Live After Death DVD, and then enjoy it with some beer tonight. That might help.
 
Eddies Wingman said:
Remember now that sports culture in the US is quite different from in Europe. NHL, NBA and so on have been corporations on their own for a long time and I have the impression that the big team sports in the US have been an "entertainment business" all the time. On the other hand, professional football in England were established by "everyday people" in their local communities.

all sports, even those in the US started like that. American Football, when it split from rugby was created at the University level by students, not corporations, and Hockey, which is a CANADIAN sport (the US considers it a very distant 4th in regards to "major" sports behind Football, Baseball and Basketball)  also began at an Amateur level. The NHL as we know it today took a while to solidify, and it is i believe the oldest "professional" sport/league in North America. 
 
Basketball is a Canadian sport too.

Now, Eddies Wingman, I can really understand what you have to say about sport.  Obviously you are very passionate about it, and corporate ownership of teams and stadiums can be a scary things.  Canada has lost two of our beloved NHL teams in the last 2 decades to expansion markets in the United States and it hurts every time it happens.  But at the same time, owners are also generally very conservative people.

That is to say, owners do not like to move teams.  It involves great expense, especially if they also own the stadium in question or are locked into a stadium lease.  That's one of the major reasons why, if you look at this deal that the Premier League has brokered with other areas, it does not involve moving a regular game there - it involves an addition of a game to the schedule.  The owners know they will make money in their home stadiums, and this is a chance for bonus money.

I agree that rising ticket prices are a danger in any sport of making stadium seating an elite venture.  But at a certain point, ticket prices will even out - because there are not enough of the rich to fill a stadium.  They need butts in seats to turn a profit, end of story.

Finally, it is very unlikely that a non-commercial league could survive in the coming European sports war.
 
LooseCannon said:
Basketball is a Canadian sport too.

Now, Eddies Wingman, I can really understand what you have to say about sport.  Obviously you are very passionate about it, and corporate ownership of teams and stadiums can be a scary things.  Canada has lost two of our beloved NHL teams in the last 2 decades to expansion markets in the United States and it hurts every time it happens.  But at the same time, owners are also generally very conservative people.

That is to say, owners do not like to move teams.  It involves great expense, especially if they also own the stadium in question or are locked into a stadium lease.  That's one of the major reasons why, if you look at this deal that the Premier League has brokered with other areas, it does not involve moving a regular game there - it involves an addition of a game to the schedule.  The owners know they will make money in their home stadiums, and this is a chance for bonus money.

I agree that rising ticket prices are a danger in any sport of making stadium seating an elite venture.  But at a certain point, ticket prices will even out - because there are not enough of the rich to fill a stadium.  They need butts in seats to turn a profit, end of story.

Finally, it is very unlikely that a non-commercial league could survive in the coming European sports war.

Well, some good points - and I don't think the English fans believe that the owners will move their teams*. Many of the traveling fans who come to England to watch "their" teams (many Irishmen and Scandinavians attend games in England regularly) are to some extent identifying themselves with the local fans; of course we don't feel the rising ticket prizes as hard, since we don't have season tickets or attend 20 games a year, but many feel solidarity with the local fans who are out prized.

The reasons why people are not pleased with this are mainly that it would make the competition unfair (by having some teams play each other 3 times) and that it is, as I've said earlier, a manifestation of the over-the-top commercialization of football. I guess most fans accept the fact that football is quite commercial, I mean, many fans buy club merchandise and pay for watching their teams on TV, but most would think that altering the competition format by moving regular league matches abroad is a step too far.

@Onhell: Football in England also started out at schools, actually the early editions of the rules were named after the different boarding schools where they originated. It was professional football that originated among workers. The working class "adopted" football from the upper/middle class while the latter kept their Rugby. When it was first suggested that one should allow football clubs to pay their players, the schools were against it - they considered it unsportsmanlike. As for ice hockey, I am well aware that the modern form of the sport originated in Canada and that ice hockey was around long before the NHL. But am I wrong if I state that a) professional team sport in the US have had a more commercial character much longer back than early 90's, and b) the big team sports didn't become professionalized in the US until after WW2? (This would illustrate that the professional football league in England, which was started in the 1870's, has had much longer time to grow roots in the English working class).

I mean, the US society hasn't had this traditional upper/middle/working class division in the same way as the UK, and even though this division is not as big as before, it is still like many from the traditional working class feel that football belong to them and that the millionaires/commercial interests are raping their beloved sport. I'm not stating that this is how it is, I just think many football fans feel that way.

End note: I told I would go and buy the Live after Death DVD to ease my mind. It is now done and I am now going to watch it with pleasure. As a little bonus I bought a couple of classic albums as well: Black Sabbath's "Master of Reality" and Judas Priest's "Screaming for Vengeance"! :yey:


*) Although it did happen some years ago. Wimbledon FC were taken over by two Norwegian investors (to the delight of the Norwegian tabloid press and after some time to the outrage of the fans). They also installed former Norway coach Egil "Drillo" Olsen as manager, he was fired with two matches remaining of the 1998-1999 season and Wimbledon were relegated. He brought in several Norwegian players as well. But the really bad thing for Wimbledon fans was that the investors decided to move the entire club from their location in southern London, where they had shared Selhurst Park with Crystal Palace FC, into Milton Keynes northwest of London (about 1/3 on the way from London to Birmingham). The fans decided to establish a new club, AFC Wimbledon, which started out in the low divisions. The moved Wimbledon, now labeled "Milton Keynes Dons", have since then been further relegated and are now fighting for promotion back to League One (which, despite its name, is the 3rd professional level in England).
 
Two simple points about the idea of staging Premier league games outside of England:

EW, the games cannot, as such, be decisive as they will be played in January - in the middle of the season. No team can win the title on the back of such result.

Second, only Man U and Liverpool have any real draw outside of England - both have massive support worldwide. If it wasn't for those teams, it simply won't be a viable option. Should both of these two teams vote against the proposal, it won't happen.

Perhaps a third: I did think that they could stage exhibition matches instead of competitive matches - that will still bring in the support and money they want (again, only if the above two teams were involved), but it might not generate as much interest if it wasn't competitive.
 
Albie said:
Two simple points about the idea of staging Premier league games outside of England:

EW, the games cannot, as such, be decisive as they will be played in January - in the middle of the season. No team can win the title on the back of such result.

Second, only Man U and Liverpool have any real draw outside of England - both have massive support worldwide. If it wasn't for those teams, it simply won't be a viable option. Should both of these two teams vote against the proposal, it won't happen.

Perhaps a third: I did think that they could stage exhibition matches instead of competitive matches - that will still bring in the support and money they want (again, only if the above two teams were involved), but it might not generate as much interest if it wasn't competitive.

Your first point, I realized after reading some more discussions about this on football forums around.

Second - this is true in the big picture (worldwide) and that's what counts  for the big guys in the PL. But, actually, here in Norway things are quite different. OK, Unted and Liverpool have the biggest following, but Leeds, Tottenham, Arsenal, Everton and Man City all have significant following in Norway (and Chelski have of course got some as well, these are mainly older than 50 or younger than 15). Now, had Sir Alex had the final say on behalf of United (and had someone like Kevin Keegan been in charge at Anfield) this entire thing would be written off as a bad idea. But unfortunately, these two big clubs are both owned by Americans who have taken over the clubs based on huge loans. I'm afraid that means they will agree on anything that can bring in more revenue.

Third - If there would not be competitive matches, things would be quite the same as today, right? Premiership clubs playing friendlies pre-season against each other and against other big clubs, like Man Utd vs Juve in New York. I actually don't think it's important for the fans in Asia, the US and so on to have competitive matches. The "real" fans, those who care about football and not just support "ManU" because Ronaldo is cool, would want to see their team because they rarely get a chance to do so. The "fashion fans" would go anyway, they would hardly know a friendly match from a Champions League final.

By the way, I mentioned something about Live After Death. I'll post something about it in an appropriate thread now that I've watched the DVD  :)

PS: I was wrong regarding Keegan. As manager of Newcastle he has in fact spoken for the extra round. So has Roy Keane who some years ago criticized the fans at Old Trafford for eating prawn sandwiches instead of supporting the team. Well, older doesn't always mean wiser.
 
Interesting ranting in this topic!

A few corrections, if I may:

@EW:
You're mistaken about b (the big team sports didn't become professionalized in the US until after WW2) and

@Onhell:
Baseball is older than Ice Hockey, as a professional sport & league.

I dare to say that both field and ice hockey originated in Europe but yes: as a professional sport & league it started in Canada. The National Hockey League was founded in 1917 in Montreal.

However, baseball is older. Professional baseball began in the United States around 1865, and the National League was founded in 1876 as the first true major league.
 
I hope I'm not giving the impression that I am for the extra games abroad - I'm not angry enough about it to rant, I just think it's a nonsense. ;)

Eddies Wingman said:
Third - If there would not be competitive matches, things would be quite the same as today, right? Premiership clubs playing friendlies pre-season against each other and against other big clubs, like Man Utd vs Juve in New York. I actually don't think it's important for the fans in Asia, the US and so on to have competitive matches. The "real" fans, those who care about football and not just support "ManU" because Ronaldo is cool, would want to see their team because they rarely get a chance to do so. The "fashion fans" would go anyway, they would hardly know a friendly match from a Champions League final.
I think that is what I was trying to say, they could stage exhibition matches in January to boost the premiership instead of this silly idea. That would be sort of acceptable to most if it really needed to go down this route, but I guess you are right to suggest that most people would not care if is competitive or not. For example, I do remember seeing a pre season friendly between Man U and Arsenal several years back that was staged in Jo'burg. It attracted a crowd of around 75,000 and, apparently, 85% to 90% were Man U fans and they got just a little too excited about the fact that Man U lost and had two (I seem to recall) players sent off.
 
Albie said:
For example, I do remember seeing a pre season friendly between Man U and Arsenal several years back that was staged in Jo'burg. It attracted a crowd of around 75,000 and, apparently, 85% to 90% were Man U fans and they got just a little too excited about the fact that Man U lost and had two (I seem to recall) players sent off.

My point exactly.

Letting these fixtures abroad be friendly matches would be acceptable (even though even that is kinda silly) - but then why put it mid-season and not instead establishing a full pre-season round (10 games) in early August? Less change from today as some clubs already play pre-season matches abroad. Formalizing a full pre-season round including all the Premiership clubs is a better alternative in my humble opinion. If they absolutely have to go down this road.

I sometimes wish I'd been born 20 years earlier. That would have allowed me the following things:

- Witnessing the World Slavery Tour  :)
- Watching football for years before the commercialization started to escalate (when it was really about the teams and not about selling the most T-shirts)
- I could support Manchester United without being accused of being a glory hunter. (Funny to be accused of that, by 10 years older Liverpool fans :-))
- If there is going to be a WW3 during my life, being born 20 years earlier would mean I'd be less likely to be involved in it  ;)

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm boiling - I can get a little over the top when I'm talking football.
 
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