Official Balkan discussion
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Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
And yet, these things will still take months and months. It will be interesting to see how he defends himself; interesting, but hopefully ultimately futile.
And yet, these things will still take months and months. It will be interesting to see how he defends himself; interesting, but hopefully ultimately futile.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Yep.
Karadzic and Mladic: The charges
Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic have both been charged and indicted by the United Nations war crimes tribunal at The Hague.
They face numerous counts of genocide, crimes against humanity and violation of the laws of war in Bosnia-Hercegovina between April 1992 and July 1995.
There are 11 counts against Mr Karadzic, the former Bosnian Serb political leader, and 15 against Mr Mladic, who commanded the Bosnian Serb army.
The indictment says they were responsible for persecution of Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) and Bosnian Croat civilians on national, political and religious grounds.
The tribunal says Mr Karadzic's and Mr Mladic's squads killed more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslims captured around Srebrenica in July 1995.
"Bosnian Serb forces executed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men in an organised, widespread and systematic manner", the indictment says.
It says Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic are responsible for the unlawful confinement, murder, rape and inhumane treatment of the non-Serb civilian population in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Detainees were terrorised by random brutality and sexual violence, it says.
It lists detention facilities - such as Omarska, Keraterm and Luka - where Bosniaks and Croats were detained, and says the camp commanders were accountable to Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic.
In many instances, women and girls were repeatedly raped in the camps.
Food rations and medical care in the prisons were inadequate.
Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic are also accused of shelling Sarajevo, and of using 284 UN peacekeepers as human shields in May and June 1995.
For 44 months the forces under their command "used shelling and sniping to kill, maim, wound and terrorise the civilian inhabitants of Sarajevo," the indictment says.
Both men are charged with the unlawful appropriation and destruction of property and places of worship.
The tribunal also accuses Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic of committing grave breaches and violations of the laws or customs of war.
THE CHARGES
Persecution of Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) and Bosnian Croat civilians
Targeting of political leaders, intellectuals and professionals
Unlawful deportation and transfer of civilians
Unlawful shelling of civilians
Unlawful appropriation and plunder of property
Destruction of homes and businesses
Destruction of places of worship
What will happen if Mr Karadzic is extradited to the ICTY?
Depending on when he arrives at the ICTY, Mr Karadzic is expected to appear some time next week at a hearing, where he will be asked to enter pleas on the charges against him.
He has 30 days after his transfer to enter the pleas. If he refuses, judges will automatically enter not guilty pleas on his behalf.
Mr Karadzic has said in the past that he denies the charges and refuses to recognise the legitimacy of the UN tribunal.
On Wednesday, his lawyer said Mr Karadzic planned to conduct his own defence at any trial, with the help of a legal team in Serbia.
He will thus be following in the footsteps of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, who defended himself during his long-running trial at The Hague.
It is difficult to estimate how long Mr Karadzic's trial will last.
But it could be anything from a few months to up to two years, and possibly longer if, like Slobodan Milosevic, Mr Karadzic refuses to recognise the court and acts as his own defence.
If and when he is transferred to the ICTY, Mr Karadzic will be held at the UN detention unit, a separate wing of a Dutch government prison in the nearby seaside resort of Scheveningen.
Yep.
Karadzic and Mladic: The charges
Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic have both been charged and indicted by the United Nations war crimes tribunal at The Hague.
They face numerous counts of genocide, crimes against humanity and violation of the laws of war in Bosnia-Hercegovina between April 1992 and July 1995.
There are 11 counts against Mr Karadzic, the former Bosnian Serb political leader, and 15 against Mr Mladic, who commanded the Bosnian Serb army.
The indictment says they were responsible for persecution of Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) and Bosnian Croat civilians on national, political and religious grounds.
The tribunal says Mr Karadzic's and Mr Mladic's squads killed more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslims captured around Srebrenica in July 1995.
"Bosnian Serb forces executed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men in an organised, widespread and systematic manner", the indictment says.
It says Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic are responsible for the unlawful confinement, murder, rape and inhumane treatment of the non-Serb civilian population in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Detainees were terrorised by random brutality and sexual violence, it says.
It lists detention facilities - such as Omarska, Keraterm and Luka - where Bosniaks and Croats were detained, and says the camp commanders were accountable to Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic.
In many instances, women and girls were repeatedly raped in the camps.
Food rations and medical care in the prisons were inadequate.
Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic are also accused of shelling Sarajevo, and of using 284 UN peacekeepers as human shields in May and June 1995.
For 44 months the forces under their command "used shelling and sniping to kill, maim, wound and terrorise the civilian inhabitants of Sarajevo," the indictment says.
Both men are charged with the unlawful appropriation and destruction of property and places of worship.
The tribunal also accuses Mr Karadzic and Mr Mladic of committing grave breaches and violations of the laws or customs of war.
THE CHARGES
Persecution of Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) and Bosnian Croat civilians
Targeting of political leaders, intellectuals and professionals
Unlawful deportation and transfer of civilians
Unlawful shelling of civilians
Unlawful appropriation and plunder of property
Destruction of homes and businesses
Destruction of places of worship
What will happen if Mr Karadzic is extradited to the ICTY?
Depending on when he arrives at the ICTY, Mr Karadzic is expected to appear some time next week at a hearing, where he will be asked to enter pleas on the charges against him.
He has 30 days after his transfer to enter the pleas. If he refuses, judges will automatically enter not guilty pleas on his behalf.
Mr Karadzic has said in the past that he denies the charges and refuses to recognise the legitimacy of the UN tribunal.
On Wednesday, his lawyer said Mr Karadzic planned to conduct his own defence at any trial, with the help of a legal team in Serbia.
He will thus be following in the footsteps of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic, who defended himself during his long-running trial at The Hague.
It is difficult to estimate how long Mr Karadzic's trial will last.
But it could be anything from a few months to up to two years, and possibly longer if, like Slobodan Milosevic, Mr Karadzic refuses to recognise the court and acts as his own defence.
If and when he is transferred to the ICTY, Mr Karadzic will be held at the UN detention unit, a separate wing of a Dutch government prison in the nearby seaside resort of Scheveningen.
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Cousteau might have some difficulty in doing that, since he died over 8 years ago.
LooseCannon said:
Cousteau might have some difficulty in doing that, since he died over 8 years ago.
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Don't you think his rotting corpse would be a good guardian?
Don't you think his rotting corpse would be a good guardian?
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Serbian nationalists see Bosnia as ancient Serb lands, that were occupied by Ottomans. So it was like a liberation war to them, killing 10,000 muslim "bastards" in the process. Much like Croatians see Herzegovina as theirs, where we also did terrible attrocities during the Bosnian war (there weren't any major ones like Srebrenica, but a lot of "smaller"). Then, on the third side, you have extreme muslims backed up by mujahids from Libya, Sirya, Iraq, etc, trying to defend their "right".
And on the fourth side you have normal people that were fighting for peace and the way of live they enjoyed prior to war. In that fourth pot, there weren't any religious or national limitations.
Some people say that "Bosnian" national doesn't exists. That Bosnians are either Croats or Serbs or whatever that were turned to Islam in days of Ottoman Empire. Bullshit. Therefore Americans don't exist too, right? Before 1990, you'd say for yourself that you're Bosnian, putting your religion and your roots aside, but also cherishing them. You had Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim and Jewish Bosnians with Croatian, Serbian, Turkish, whatever roots, living in peace and living for their country. Sarajevo had a Catholic and Orthodox Chuch, a Muslim Djamia and a Jewish Synagog so close to eachother in the city center, that foreigners were litterally stunned when they saw that.
Today, even Bosnians that want to live normal lost their identity. Current Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina is comprimised of three nations : Croats (Herzegovina), Serbs (Republic of Srpska), and Bosniaks (in central Bosnia). Well, Bosniaks are Muslims on paper. So you need to declare yourself as Croat if you have Croatian roots and you're Catholic.
Speaking of ICTY, and knowing a lot of stories first-hand, don't expect a village uprising once Karadjic goes to prison. 95% of people serving sentence up there are same type of assholes that waged wars for personal profit or for the sake of their demented mind. Some of Milosevic's best prison friends were Croatian extremists who wiped Serbs from Herzegovina and such.
I listened to recorded conversation that was monitored and grabbed from Serb to Croatian radio communication over the front line. It went like this. Croatians on the totally other front were trying to progress through Muslim teritories, but a gun nest holded them back for days. So they asked Serbs to take out a T-72 and blow up the nest, for a couple of wagons of tobacco and stuff. Naturally, the nest was blown. This is just one of the examples of what was going on.
That complete war was one big bullshit, with two/three sides trying to screw up a country just for the sake of territorial expanse, profits and power.
Serbian nationalists see Bosnia as ancient Serb lands, that were occupied by Ottomans. So it was like a liberation war to them, killing 10,000 muslim "bastards" in the process. Much like Croatians see Herzegovina as theirs, where we also did terrible attrocities during the Bosnian war (there weren't any major ones like Srebrenica, but a lot of "smaller"). Then, on the third side, you have extreme muslims backed up by mujahids from Libya, Sirya, Iraq, etc, trying to defend their "right".
And on the fourth side you have normal people that were fighting for peace and the way of live they enjoyed prior to war. In that fourth pot, there weren't any religious or national limitations.
Some people say that "Bosnian" national doesn't exists. That Bosnians are either Croats or Serbs or whatever that were turned to Islam in days of Ottoman Empire. Bullshit. Therefore Americans don't exist too, right? Before 1990, you'd say for yourself that you're Bosnian, putting your religion and your roots aside, but also cherishing them. You had Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim and Jewish Bosnians with Croatian, Serbian, Turkish, whatever roots, living in peace and living for their country. Sarajevo had a Catholic and Orthodox Chuch, a Muslim Djamia and a Jewish Synagog so close to eachother in the city center, that foreigners were litterally stunned when they saw that.
Today, even Bosnians that want to live normal lost their identity. Current Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina is comprimised of three nations : Croats (Herzegovina), Serbs (Republic of Srpska), and Bosniaks (in central Bosnia). Well, Bosniaks are Muslims on paper. So you need to declare yourself as Croat if you have Croatian roots and you're Catholic.
Speaking of ICTY, and knowing a lot of stories first-hand, don't expect a village uprising once Karadjic goes to prison. 95% of people serving sentence up there are same type of assholes that waged wars for personal profit or for the sake of their demented mind. Some of Milosevic's best prison friends were Croatian extremists who wiped Serbs from Herzegovina and such.
I listened to recorded conversation that was monitored and grabbed from Serb to Croatian radio communication over the front line. It went like this. Croatians on the totally other front were trying to progress through Muslim teritories, but a gun nest holded them back for days. So they asked Serbs to take out a T-72 and blow up the nest, for a couple of wagons of tobacco and stuff. Naturally, the nest was blown. This is just one of the examples of what was going on.
That complete war was one big bullshit, with two/three sides trying to screw up a country just for the sake of territorial expanse, profits and power.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Karadzic reportedly escaped arrest in Austria last year
VIENNA (Reuters) - Radovan Karadzic evaded capture last year when Austrian police raided a Vienna apartment where he was staying but did not recognise the disguised war crimes suspect, an Austrian newspaper reported on Friday.
Karadzic, who was captured in Belgrade earlier this week after 11 years in hiding, was found disguised as a doctor. Serb authorities said the 63-year-old Karadzic, who had been indicted for genocide during the Bosnia wars, was barely recognisable in his white long beard.
The Kronen Zeitung said in a report that police found the bearded, white-haired man when they raided the apartment of the girlfriend of a Serb man suspected of having shot dead another Serb in a Vienna cafe in May 2007.
When the police asked him to identify himself, the report said that he showed a Croat passport under the name Petar Glumac and added he was in Vienna for training. It said that he
appeared calm and readily answered police questions about the suspect.
The Austrian Interior Ministry confirmed the raid, which took place on May 4, 2007, and said policemen who took part in recognised Karadzic as the man they saw in the apartment when they saw his pictures after his capture.
"When the pictures of Karadzic emerged after his arrest in Serbia, policemen who participated in the raid have reported that the man they have encountered there was probably Karadzic," Interior Ministry spokesman Wolfgang Gollia told Austrian television.
Gollia said the ministry was still making checks with Croat and Serb authorities and was interviewing the policemen and other witnesses before confirming the man's identity.
According to the Kronen Zeitung report, Karadzic lived in the apartment for three months and sold herbal solutions and ointments.
Earlier on Friday, another daily, Kurier, reported that Karadzic had practiced medicine under the name Pera as a miracle healer in the private homes of Serbs living in Vienna.
Bearing a Croat passport, Karadzic would not have needed a visa for entering Austria.
(Reporting by Boris Groendahl; editing by Sami Aboudi)
Karadzic reportedly escaped arrest in Austria last year
VIENNA (Reuters) - Radovan Karadzic evaded capture last year when Austrian police raided a Vienna apartment where he was staying but did not recognise the disguised war crimes suspect, an Austrian newspaper reported on Friday.
Karadzic, who was captured in Belgrade earlier this week after 11 years in hiding, was found disguised as a doctor. Serb authorities said the 63-year-old Karadzic, who had been indicted for genocide during the Bosnia wars, was barely recognisable in his white long beard.
The Kronen Zeitung said in a report that police found the bearded, white-haired man when they raided the apartment of the girlfriend of a Serb man suspected of having shot dead another Serb in a Vienna cafe in May 2007.
When the police asked him to identify himself, the report said that he showed a Croat passport under the name Petar Glumac and added he was in Vienna for training. It said that he
appeared calm and readily answered police questions about the suspect.
The Austrian Interior Ministry confirmed the raid, which took place on May 4, 2007, and said policemen who took part in recognised Karadzic as the man they saw in the apartment when they saw his pictures after his capture.
"When the pictures of Karadzic emerged after his arrest in Serbia, policemen who participated in the raid have reported that the man they have encountered there was probably Karadzic," Interior Ministry spokesman Wolfgang Gollia told Austrian television.
Gollia said the ministry was still making checks with Croat and Serb authorities and was interviewing the policemen and other witnesses before confirming the man's identity.
According to the Kronen Zeitung report, Karadzic lived in the apartment for three months and sold herbal solutions and ointments.
Earlier on Friday, another daily, Kurier, reported that Karadzic had practiced medicine under the name Pera as a miracle healer in the private homes of Serbs living in Vienna.
Bearing a Croat passport, Karadzic would not have needed a visa for entering Austria.
(Reporting by Boris Groendahl; editing by Sami Aboudi)
Ranko
I'll shoot the gunner first!
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
This has been disproved, there is actually a real Pera the miracle healer (full name Petar Glumac) who looks almost identical to Karadzic, here's the comparison photo:
From the Telegraph: Radovan Karadzic stole a lookalike's image
Mr Glumac, a 78-year-old healer from the north eastern Serbian village of Novo Selo, is known as Uncle Pera and has no other links with Karadzic
Serbian newspapers have published pictures of Petar Glumac, alongside a picture of Karadzic with the headline "Radovan stole my image and energy".
"I have no connection with Karadzic and have only seen him on television," Mr Glumac, told the papers. "I have also been on television, but you will have to ask him personally as to the reason he copied (my appearance)."
Mr Glumac, a 78-year-old healer from the north eastern Serbian village of Novo Selo, is known as Uncle Pera and has no other links with Karadzic, who was arrested a week ago.
The wartime Bosnian Serb leader managed to evade capture by disguising himself as an alternative medicine guru and adopting the false name of Dragan Dabic.
His alter ego bears an uncanny resemblance to Mr Glumac, with his thick wire-rimmed glasses and a long white beard. Only their eyebrows differ - Karadzic's are black and Mr Glumac's are white.
"He stole the style of Uncle Pera," one of Mr Glumac's neighbours said.
Serbia hopes to transfer Karadzic to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague later this week. His stands indicted for genocide and crimes against humanity during Bosnia's 1992-1995 war.
From the Telegraph: Radovan Karadzic stole a lookalike's image
Mr Glumac, a 78-year-old healer from the north eastern Serbian village of Novo Selo, is known as Uncle Pera and has no other links with Karadzic
Serbian newspapers have published pictures of Petar Glumac, alongside a picture of Karadzic with the headline "Radovan stole my image and energy".
"I have no connection with Karadzic and have only seen him on television," Mr Glumac, told the papers. "I have also been on television, but you will have to ask him personally as to the reason he copied (my appearance)."
Mr Glumac, a 78-year-old healer from the north eastern Serbian village of Novo Selo, is known as Uncle Pera and has no other links with Karadzic, who was arrested a week ago.
The wartime Bosnian Serb leader managed to evade capture by disguising himself as an alternative medicine guru and adopting the false name of Dragan Dabic.
His alter ego bears an uncanny resemblance to Mr Glumac, with his thick wire-rimmed glasses and a long white beard. Only their eyebrows differ - Karadzic's are black and Mr Glumac's are white.
"He stole the style of Uncle Pera," one of Mr Glumac's neighbours said.
Serbia hopes to transfer Karadzic to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague later this week. His stands indicted for genocide and crimes against humanity during Bosnia's 1992-1995 war.
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
One of my friends just remarked that Karadzic looked like Santa Claus.
My response was this: "Oh, absolutely. Except do you know what he brings little kids on Christmas Day? Ethnic cleansing."
We laughed. And then were sad.
One of my friends just remarked that Karadzic looked like Santa Claus.
My response was this: "Oh, absolutely. Except do you know what he brings little kids on Christmas Day? Ethnic cleansing."
We laughed. And then were sad.
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
You know what makes me even sadder? A mass of Serbians assembling in Belgrade to protest this man's being delivered to the Hague tribunal...as if he were INNOCENT. Saw this on the news the other day and it just made me really angry. I think the EU should really think twice about talks with Serbia to let them into the EU. If this is how the populace is reacting, then Serbia isn't ready yet.
You know what makes me even sadder? A mass of Serbians assembling in Belgrade to protest this man's being delivered to the Hague tribunal...as if he were INNOCENT. Saw this on the news the other day and it just made me really angry. I think the EU should really think twice about talks with Serbia to let them into the EU. If this is how the populace is reacting, then Serbia isn't ready yet.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
These are the same radicals that protested the loss of the ultra-nationalist government and the subsequent win of Boris Tadic, a moderate and a EU sympathizer. In other words, there is no surprize there. It is doubtful that most Serbs care for the accused war criminals, as they're only holding back progress.
These are the same radicals that protested the loss of the ultra-nationalist government and the subsequent win of Boris Tadic, a moderate and a EU sympathizer. In other words, there is no surprize there. It is doubtful that most Serbs care for the accused war criminals, as they're only holding back progress.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
I wasn't sure where to post this (a separate topic wouldn't be worth it, I guess?)
There's a highly intelligent new theory about the fall of Srebrenica. And it's not coming from Karadzic.
I wasn't sure where to post this (a separate topic wouldn't be worth it, I guess?)
There's a highly intelligent new theory about the fall of Srebrenica. And it's not coming from Karadzic.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Without opening the link, I know what it's about.
Sounds like the same kind of insane person who says that the US failed in Vietnam and will fail in Iraq and Afghanistan because the country tolerates homosezuals - and that the hurricane Katrina happened for the same reason.
People like that should be forced to undergo psychiatric treatment.
Without opening the link, I know what it's about.
Sounds like the same kind of insane person who says that the US failed in Vietnam and will fail in Iraq and Afghanistan because the country tolerates homosezuals - and that the hurricane Katrina happened for the same reason.
People like that should be forced to undergo psychiatric treatment.
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
Yep, it doesn't have any military basis in fact, it's just one of those things that people who hate the gays say. They said it when the Chinese invaded Korea, that the US military was pushed back because of desegregation.
Yep, it doesn't have any military basis in fact, it's just one of those things that people who hate the gays say. They said it when the Chinese invaded Korea, that the US military was pushed back because of desegregation.
Re: Radovan Karadzic arrested!
A great day for humanity:
Although it's sad to see that there are still many Serb nationalists out there who will close their eyes before the truth, reason and humanity have gained the majority in the country, and the Serbs now have something they can be rightfully proud of. A victory of humanity over bigotry is always a great victory. Now it's up to the international community to reward this step by giving those responsible an appropriate sentence, and opening the west for Serbia. With regards to Kosovo, there are still many obstacles in the way, but the Serb government has proven that it is not devoid of reason, so I'm starting to be optimistic.
Let's hope this will set the precedence for other countries like Turkey to realise that the way to Europe is that of reason and humanity.
In this vein, I have renamed the thread to fit a more general subject.
A great day for humanity:
Although it's sad to see that there are still many Serb nationalists out there who will close their eyes before the truth, reason and humanity have gained the majority in the country, and the Serbs now have something they can be rightfully proud of. A victory of humanity over bigotry is always a great victory. Now it's up to the international community to reward this step by giving those responsible an appropriate sentence, and opening the west for Serbia. With regards to Kosovo, there are still many obstacles in the way, but the Serb government has proven that it is not devoid of reason, so I'm starting to be optimistic.
Let's hope this will set the precedence for other countries like Turkey to realise that the way to Europe is that of reason and humanity.
In this vein, I have renamed the thread to fit a more general subject.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
A great day for humanity? I find that a bit exaggerating.
Realize, it didn't exactly come from the heart, they only did this in order to become a member of the EU.
(and the difference in votes was 2! It was very close.)
And they refuse to use the word genocide. I see it as a first step in a still long process.
Don't get me wrong:
I understand your optimism, but I'll get more enthousiastic if Mladic gets caught.
Realize, it didn't exactly come from the heart, they only did this in order to become a member of the EU.
(and the difference in votes was 2! It was very close.)
And they refuse to use the word genocide. I see it as a first step in a still long process.
Don't get me wrong:
I understand your optimism, but I'll get more enthousiastic if Mladic gets caught.
The word "genocide" was removed from the resolution to get a majority. Sure, that can be seen as problematic, but to me it also means that there are Serbian politicians who do accept that interpretation.
It's a start, and I think that should be lauded to encourage further steps. That sits much better with a nation than being told what else to do.
EDIT: For further reference, I elaborated my view on this elsewhere.
It's a start, and I think that should be lauded to encourage further steps. That sits much better with a nation than being told what else to do.
EDIT: For further reference, I elaborated my view on this elsewhere.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Forostar said:
A step forward, it is. Though if those that did not abstain in protest voted, would the result have been different?
EDIT: The abstainers wanted to have their cake and eat it too. By choosing this action, they're explicitly showing support for the nationalist viewpoint. Tacitly, they're seeing the larger picture and willing to join the EU.