srfc
Ancient Mariner
The Book of Souls definitely does, as it has a different mastering engineer than the CD.
Nights of the Dead, Legacy of the Beast: Live in Mexico City (new live album)
- Thread starter Forostar
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The Book of Souls definitely does, as it has a different mastering engineer than the CD.
Samantas5855
Ancient Mariner
Chris Bellman right?
Is measuring dynamics on a vinyl a right practice? Since its analog and the waveform is distorted. I do tend to believe the mastering itself doesnt clip, they clip it upon distribution (CD pressing, upload on an online service). Btw nights of the dead while not dynamic at all doesn't clip.
Edit:
Looks as if they amplified it enough to clip it, then amplified it back so it looks shaved
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Yax
Ancient Mariner
Sure you can measure the dynamics, and it's relevant? 0dBFS = +24 dBu. Anyway, the dynamic range isn't really the difference between your quietest point and distortion,. I sinmply define it as the difference between the quietest point and the loudest point (with the assumption that things doesn't really distort per se. There is always a degree of distortion with vinyl, but on a properly set up and good system it's usually neglible). You can measure in different ways (peak, RMS and others), but the bottom line is, the difference between the quietest point in your measurement and the loudest = the dynamic range. You're right though, that there's a huge difference in outright digital distortion and analog, where's the former is like you hit a ceiling, and that's it - Pass that line and the waveforms just get chopped whereas analog distortion, things saturate - The waveforms distort, but it's not the chopped type of digital distortion, but a far more pleasant one. You can still peak at the max level (0 dBFS), either naturally, or by the use of a limiter or other dynamic control tools without it being distorted per se.
You can clip, both in the mixing stage and in the mastering. Rather than limiting, you can subtly distort the waveform and maintain more of the sound, while decreasing the dynamics, while limiting just chops. The CD is a perfect replication of what source you put into it. Clipping at the mastering (and mixing) stage is a common practise, and again, if correctly applied, better way of controlling the dynamic range than simple limiting.
And you want to use the most dynamic range as you can. You pretty much always reach 0 dbFS at some point. This is where your bits run out, and past that is distortion. Conservatively you peak, slightly below. But controlling those peaks is usually better with saturation (clipping) than just limiting. The old days though, you rarely peaked that high. But it is what it is.
Edit: You're talking about peaking at 0 dBFS, not clipping per se, right? They aren't the same thing.
You can clip, both in the mixing stage and in the mastering. Rather than limiting, you can subtly distort the waveform and maintain more of the sound, while decreasing the dynamics, while limiting just chops. The CD is a perfect replication of what source you put into it. Clipping at the mastering (and mixing) stage is a common practise, and again, if correctly applied, better way of controlling the dynamic range than simple limiting.
And you want to use the most dynamic range as you can. You pretty much always reach 0 dbFS at some point. This is where your bits run out, and past that is distortion. Conservatively you peak, slightly below. But controlling those peaks is usually better with saturation (clipping) than just limiting. The old days though, you rarely peaked that high. But it is what it is.
Edit: You're talking about peaking at 0 dBFS, not clipping per se, right? They aren't the same thing.
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Samantas5855
Ancient Mariner
Well these days the source of the sound pressed into vinyls is mostly digital, unless you know for sure what is happening in the pressing etc I guess you can only trust your ears.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
It is, but that's not necessarily a bad thing at all.
But yeah, some vinyl itself distorts on playback, even when you're on a good system with a properly configured pickup (it always does to an extent once you reach the inner grooves, but I'm talking audible). The tracking capability of the pickup and the proper alignment of it is the difference between audible distortion caused by the playback system and a nice, proper reproductionm of the grooves. That doesn't always help though, because sometimes the Vinyl distorts anyway on playback. I was extremely pissed with Priest's Angel of Retribution reissue. Like, thanks a lot. When you press a vinyl too hot, that happens, especially towars the inner grooves because they are harder to track, and there are less room to store the information in those grooves. I'm sure it can happen because of other reasons too, but I dont know enough about vinyl to say anything.
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srfc
Ancient Mariner
Yeah.
Samantas5855
Ancient Mariner
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Could be either. Again, distortion is to a degree inherit to the format. Vinyl playback is a jungle. I've got a somewhat expensive system with a cartridge I've properly aligned to reduce playback distortion. I digitize my favorite vinyl, and I run into some albums where I get distortion, some where it's just in spots which can be edited away and some where it's inaudible. Some cartidges themselves are more susceptible to mistracking than others too.
I'm hoping the new live album will sound somewhat better on vinyl. It will be less compressed anyway, as vinyl doesn't allow for super compression.
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PhantomOfTheOpera
Ancient Mariner
I should receive the "Deluxe hardcase book 2CD" on friday and then from the official store "Limited edition heavyweight 180g Mexican Flag triple coloured vinyl" some time later when it gets here. Later if needed (for completion), Im gonna get the regular vinyl and regular cd aswell to my collection. Could have gotten some bundle and such, but I felt that I don't need extra things and the t-shirt wasn't anything that special looking.
Anyways, Im gonna listen to some songs from the streaming services first in the morning. The book version should be nice (as seen in the Bruce's unboxing video) and I really like the same kind of sets of TBOS and TBOS : Live Chapter.
Anyways, Im gonna listen to some songs from the streaming services first in the morning. The book version should be nice (as seen in the Bruce's unboxing video) and I really like the same kind of sets of TBOS and TBOS : Live Chapter.
jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
In terms of quality it‘s more about recording and mixing than the final format imo, and when it comes to that I prefer digital, because on vinyl you hear every little bit of dust, you get scratches etc. Also, there are digital in the box productions that sound very analogue, for example some of Steven Wilson‘s Opeth mixes. So I think the digital vs. analogue thing doesn‘t matter much anymore.
When it comes to the “loudness war”, that‘s indeed a problem, but isn’t that getting better because of normalizing of streaming?
Yax
Ancient Mariner
I've started going for vinyl mostly because they are less compressed than the digital counterparts, and audibly so. There are a lot of downsides with vinyl, but under the right conditions I think they in many cases are better than the alternative. Plus, the inherit (subtle) harmonic distortion can at times sound pretty neat on say, guitars. I would be more than happy to not (edit: That's half a lie, I enjoy it) having to go through the expensive and time consuming process of buying gear, records, rip them, edit them etc, but as of now we're not there yet. Things are getting better, with the loudness war, but it's still a long way to go.
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jazz from hell
Ancient Mariner
Yeah, I've started trying vinyl as well a few years ago when someone gave me a turntable. It is cool, I do enjoy the big cover, plus you have to change sides and it doesn't just go on forever, which leads to more conscious listening. But it turned out that I still pretty much only listen to streaming, so... But I must say I'm not entirely happy with that either.
chaosapiant
Ancient Marinade
I collect vinyl to look at and then just listen to hi-res audio on my Ed Phones and it’s just as good, and my vinyls don’t get scratched.
PhantomOfTheOpera
Ancient Mariner
I've bought both formats since late 80's but in the last couple years, I've been only collecting vinyl.
I think the intended way of making cd sound worse and also cutting down the cost of booklets (some don't even have booklets and info papers inside the sleeves anymore) and such has lost my interest in cd.
The presentation and sound are definitely better on vinyl. Cd is also great, but sometimes they are compressed and mastered very badly, too loud.
There's no real reason do that kind of thing at all, as some cd:s still sound really good. This is jus the way and fashion of the times, that "loudness wars" thing was bad but now it's actually starting to go better and there are actually good albums on too. But now it's really cheap to buy cd:s so they are in ways really nice.
I think the intended way of making cd sound worse and also cutting down the cost of booklets (some don't even have booklets and info papers inside the sleeves anymore) and such has lost my interest in cd.
The presentation and sound are definitely better on vinyl. Cd is also great, but sometimes they are compressed and mastered very badly, too loud.
There's no real reason do that kind of thing at all, as some cd:s still sound really good. This is jus the way and fashion of the times, that "loudness wars" thing was bad but now it's actually starting to go better and there are actually good albums on too. But now it's really cheap to buy cd:s so they are in ways really nice.
Samantas5855
Ancient Mariner
Normalization just level matches the song, it's just like turning down the volume. This won't restore the crashed peaks, dynamics are still lost, distortion persists etc. Once a song is destroyed you can't do that much. Now on youtube dynamic songs sound louder but sadly this didn't make any record company give up on the war. You can use geek options to see if you are listening to a bad master or not.
In terms of Steven Wilson, his masters/mixes sound good cause they aren't hot and he does bands that respect their sound, like Jethro Tull.
Some people do get vinyls for the aesthetics but the point is you get the vinyl cause sometimes the mastering is better (eg. Stadium Arcadium). As a format vinyl is actively worse than digital with a much more limited dynamic range that some failed 80s technologies tried to extend.
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PhantomOfTheOpera
Ancient Mariner
Just in time, I got the preordered deluxe book version from record store with todays mail.
Sounds good so far and Im going in the midddle of WED at the moment..
Sounds good so far and Im going in the midddle of WED at the moment..
Yax
Ancient Mariner
The level matching removes a lot of the incentive to make the songs ridiculously loud. You just end up with a worse sounding product if you squash it at mastering, played back at the same level as everybody else's. Which is why thing are slowly getting better. As you said though, it does nothing in itself to improve the sound. What goes in goes out, just at the same level as everybody else
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Samantas5855
Ancient Mariner
I really don't think things are getting better, especially considering the 2015 iron maiden remasters or the new System of A Down songs