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New Frontier

Discussion in 'Dance Of Death' started by gor, Sep 22, 2003.

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How good is New Frontier on a scale of 1-10?

  1. 10

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 9

    9.7%
  3. 8

    9.7%
  4. 7

    22.6%
  5. 6

    32.3%
  6. 5

    16.1%
  7. 4

    6.5%
  8. 3

    3.2%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. gor

    gor Ancient Mariner

    As I am in Medicine school (it god damn never seems to end by the way), I found the lyrics to NF to be really BS. Your comentary really puts thing into perspective man! Any way, morality cannot and should not prevent experiments/discoveries, it should prevent wrong applications of these discoveries. Because otherwise anything since the fire shouldn't have been invented, because, like cloning, each invention can be used for benefit or destruction...
     
  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Well, thanks for the compliment. I bet many people won't see the commentary the way you saw it, and I'm expecting a few flames (I've already been labelled "crazy" on the official Iron Maiden BB!).

    Maybe even fire should never have been discovered. Damn Prometheus! [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
     
  3. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    'new Frontier'

    I find the Commentary on this song well argumented, but every religious person, or just any person in general who doesn't like cloning could be as much offended by this piece, as e.g. scientists could be offended by the lyrics of the song [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

    For the record, I am not a fan of human cloning nor of Religious "crap".
    It depends on what you agree with, I disagree with both the lyrics and the commentary, but I don't feel offended.

    cheers!



    Forostar
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Whatever you may think of it, the commentary of 'New Frontier' got you to register and start posting on this BB, my dear Forostar.  So I'd say that this is pretty positive, don't you think?
     
  5. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    'new Frontier'

    Lol, indeed Mav [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

    Some more "commentary" on the commentary.

    I find both the lyrics and the commentary quite subjective, but knowing the authors of both pieces (the one a bit better than the other ;-) ), I am not that offended.
     
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    My intention wasn't to offend anyone (although I knew I would anyway), but to take the counterpart of the discourse in 'New Frontier'.  I wanted to explain that whatever people have heard about cloning, it's probably bullshit. And the lyrics of the song are a massive pile of it.

    Gut reaction, sorry!
     
  7. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Yorktown-class aircraft carrier Staff Member

    'new Frontier'

    Well, Mav, I don't know if I agree with you about it being utter bullshit. Yes, I can see where you're getting off about it being offensive towards scientists. (And especially biologists in particular, you crazy Frankensteins you)

    To get this clear, I'm agnostic. Meaning that I really don't believe in religion at all. And the fact that there's always the mention of God or something in Iron Maiden songs somewhere (not all, but you know what I mean) has never offended me, because I believe it to be each person's right to believe what they want.

    However, New Frontier is to me a good warning about crossing ethical boundaries. (i.e. cloning human beings whole, not just replacement parts or whatever you freaky biologists do. [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ) Maybe it does go a little overboard, but we should remember that the members of Maiden (especially Nicko, whom if I remember from the last questions to the band, is a Reborn Christian) are religious. Their strong stand on the issue of cloning is probably a reflection of this.

    Oh, wasn't it in Florida where that Clone-Aid thing went down where they said they had cloned someone (now that's bullshit)? Nicko lives there, remember...that might have influenced this song as well.

    Either way, I don't think that the song is total bs. Would it be right to clone people? No, I don't think it would be, and I hope you guys would agree with that. Maybe there is some over emphasis on this song, but there are some frontiers that shouldn't be crossed.

    By the way, I mean no offense against biologists or Maverick with the little comments...just my quirky humour at it again.
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Agreed, LooseCannon. I do think that it is not because something is technically possible that it should be done. I personally do not see any valid point in cloning a whole human being and the fact that it's technically feasible doesn't mean that it should be done (like I said: what for?).

    I was just trying to prevent another offensive on scientists, like what happened to Galileo or Darwin. Or even worse: I did mention doctors being murdered by religious extremists for performing abortion.

    Just a piece of my mind, that's all [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
     
  9. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Yorktown-class aircraft carrier Staff Member

    'new Frontier'

    I see your point, Maverick...but lets put it this way. What would Maiden do if people started attacking scientists because of a song? They would laugh at them and tell them to get a 'kin life.

    Somehow I don't think we're meant to read too much into the lyrics, aside from the basic warning.
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Let's consider it a "nice little horror story" like 'Dance of Death', hey? [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
     
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Maverick, I think you've forgotten about the bands' (especiallíy Nicko's) religious views. (Not only here, ie. Sign of the cross is about Steve's religious problems, not aboiut The name of the rose, but I could mention a lot of songs.) I study medicine so I understand that you think the lyrics are crap, but have you ever wondered about how far can we go? The evolution of science is a good thing, but don't you think sometimes the aftermath isn't good? Don't you think that a cloned men would have identify problems or some kinda shit like that? So I think the lyrics are OK. But anyway, it's your personal view, and I accept that.
     
  12. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Well, Guest (it'd be nice if you could register), I haven't forgotten Nicko's religious beliefs and I do also respect that he doesn't force them onto others -- except with 'New Frontier' of course! As for the rest of Iron Maiden, I am not sure. I just know that Dickinson has declared several times that he wasn't religious.

    I knew I was going to shock some people with what I wrote and I did so to create some reaction, like I myself reacted to this unfounded attack. After all, I do state in my disclaimer that those with extreme beliefs should not enter the site, as they may be shocked by some of the commentaries. On the other hand, my commentary can also be the start of an interesting discussion, and your post attests of this.

    I do believe that science must be closely monitored, but only by other scientists. Only other scientists can effectively advise their peers because they know the context and its possible up- and down-sides. There are commitees of ethics in place and they have so far done a decent job. But I doubt that a theologian can advise on molecular biology...

    I have already stated that I wasn't in favour of human cloning, unless I can be convinced of its usefulness -- which I doubt! Likewise, I am in favour of nuclear energy, although I strongly condemn its military use. I could go on like this...

    Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this BB and hope to hear from you soon.
     
  13. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Yorktown-class aircraft carrier Staff Member

    'new Frontier'

    To be fair to the theologans, remember that it's religion that carried intact morals from the Golden Age of Civilization in Greece and Rome to our current time. I'm not saying that it's divinely inspired (because I don't think so) nor do I think that religion is the perfect conduit for ethics, because it sure as hell isn't. But the 10 commandments and the 5 pillars both contain very good moral codes for us to follow. Some are utter nonsense (ever see George Carlin's version of the 10 commandments?) but others do make sense, and without religion these codes may not have survived.

    Unfortunately, Maverick, it's the outcry from the church that seems to keep scientists in check sometimes. There are frontiers that shouldn't be crossed, and sometimes I wonder if there aren't scientists out there who are crazy enough to attempt some of this stuff. I'm not saying scientists aren't on the whole responsible.

    However, it seems to me that one group of people keeping watch over itself is doomed to failure. Political philosopher John Locke designed a governmental system designed with three branches so that no one branch could empower itself. The legislative, judicial, and administrative branches all watch over the other. In order for an ethics committee to be impartial it would have to consist of people from more than just the scientific community, else we'll have people take advantage of the system. Everyone here knows that people take advantage of the system whenever they can.
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Scientists are not as irresponsible as some may think, I suppose. I found [a href=\'http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20030923/05\' target=\'_blank\']a link[/a] that might shed some light on how they proceed to prevent unethical processes like whole organism human cloning.
     
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Maverick:
    Welll, I'm the guest, and I've done the registration as you can see. I don't have such a big problem with your commentary, just I don't think it's such a crap lyric, and I can understand what Nicko wanted to tell us through the song.
    About the band's religious thoughts: well, this could be another topic as well, but I'm gonna be short. As we know, Nicko is christian. Both Steve and Blaze beleive in God, but they do it on their own way. If my memory serves me good, this is true to Bruce, too. And this can be reckognized in their songs (ie. Hallowed be thy name, the whole Seventh son album, No prayer for the dying, the whole X Factor album, Blood brothers and so on). This doesn't mean that they have to be religious. There are a lot of metal artists who have the same situation (think of Hetfield and Mustaine.)
    I don't wanna write more abut this, bur if you like, we can start a topic about this.
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    Thanks for registering. I hope you'll come back often to start any topic you may like to see discussed here.

    As for Maiden's religious beliefs (or absence of), I don't really care what they are as long as their compositions are enjoyable. It's just that some lyrics sometimes make me tick, that's all.

    Anyway, these disagreements over the lyrics are the opportunity to discuss our different views and to learn from each other. So all in all, it's pretty good [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
     
  17. SinisterMinisterX

    SinisterMinisterX Illuminatus Staff Member

    'new Frontier'

    Maverick, I agree with your views for the most part, but I think your commentary was just a little harsh. Maiden are musicians, not scientists. They are naturally going to have a different point of view and they have every right to express it. I certainly didn't think this song is "offensive to scientists" ... and I'm a bit of a scientist myself, specifically a pre-med student.

    But then again, I recognize that the commentary is largely your own view of the songs, and I appreciate the fantastic effort you put elucidating the subjects that Maiden sings about. So even if I disagree (for example, I like Gates Of Tomorrow), keep up the good work!
     
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    'new Frontier'

    I usually try to stay objective and, whenever possible, not to include any personal opinion in my commentaries. 'New Frontier' was a special case in my view.

    I may have slightly over-reacted, but I wanted to put things straight in a way that would make people react and start a discussion. And apparently, it worked.

    If Lord Chamberlain, instead of saying "Mr. Hitler is not a gentleman" after a visit to Berlin shortly before the start of WW II, had clearly sent a message to the world that Nazi Germany was not to be tolerated and that action had to be taken forcefully and right away, maybe some people could have been saved and the war could have ended earlier than it did. But of course, this is pure speculation and the situation is -- for the moment at least -- quite different regarding the question of science and religious extremists.

    Those of you who study medicine may not have been confronted to the case yet, but what would you do if parents asked you to leave their child to die of peritonitis because their belief is that any surgical operation, even as benign as an appendisectomy nowadays, was forbidden by their god? I see some bigots' judgement of science just as absurd and potentially dangerous. Now, that's food for thought...
     
  19. LooseCannon

    LooseCannon Yorktown-class aircraft carrier Staff Member

    'new Frontier'

    I can remember a few years ago in New Brunswick (if memory serves) that a boy died because his parents, who were Jehovah's Witnesses, wouldn't let him have a blood transfusion. This drives me absolutely up the wall. I can't fathom committing one's own flesh and blood to the grave because of religion.

    I thought the era of killing for religion was supposed to have ended at the end of the 30 years war.
     
  20. Onhell

    Onhell Mexican Revolutionary

    'new Frontier'

    At first I refused to write about this topic, since science and religion are difficult topics to discuss, but the intelligent comments I found (except for some retards who hate gers and maverik), changed my mind. Everything has already been said except this. EVERYTHING IS A DOUBLE EDGE SWORD....EVERYTHING. Science is a great thing that has brought us medecine, laser-eye surgery and reconstructive surgery for people who have suffered horrible accidents. However, it also performs abortions, it gives superficial people plastic surgery and what not. Religion is the same way, it's true purpose is to enlighten, bring the believer peace and in turn he will be at peace with others, but countries like the U.S. use it to manipulate people, to cause fear and to keep them in line. In other words, one has to see through the bullshit. Clonning is a miracle of science, but it must be used wisely. Extremes are never healthy.
     

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