Maryland abolishes death penalty

CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Exactly (--to your final point.) The two are related; but other factors come into play with abortion/terminations (as I mentioned earlier) which have no relevance to the debate around the death penalty e.g. the moral conundrum of save baby or save mother, with no possibility of saving both. (Yes, I appreciate this is only one single example.) With the death penalty there is no such conundrum, as it's pretty easy to save the life of someone sentenced to death --don't have laws allowing you to sentence people to death in the first place.
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Well yea, but I think it's good to point out the similarities between the two topics. There's quite a few inconsistencies in the rhetoric and broad statements made when discussing issues like this and that sort of thing tends to irritate me quite a bit.
 
It's a thread on the death penalty though --having a massive debate about both is going to be pretty complicated. But go ahead and point out the similarities if you think it will be helpful to the debate.
 
I'm inclined to let the abortion theme continue. I know that legally, they are two different things, but I don't see how they can be morally. If it becomes too cumbersome, We will moderate.

It is often interesting to see the debate between legality and morality.
 
Mosh said:
But you did call life an unalienable right.
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Yeah, for the ones who are born.

Mosh said:
Also, having an unwanted child is not the only reason for abortions. Some people abort babies that are likely to have birth defects. like down syndrome.
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Yes and I already talked about that before.

The Flash said:
It should be up to the people who willingly or unwillingly caused its creation and from a medical standpoint, doctors.
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I really don't see the relation. A fetus isn't a human being, death penalty takes the life of a human being away. I do not consider abortion "taking a life away from the world", I consider it "not letting somebody start to live in the world". Two completely different things.
 
The Flash said:
Yeah, for the ones who are born.


I really don't see the relation. A fetus isn't a human being, death penalty takes the life of a human being away. I do not consider abortion "taking a life away from the world", I consider it "not letting somebody start to live in the world". Two completely different things.
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By YOUR definition, a fetus isn't a human being. There is the sticky part. Some consider life starting at conception. If that is the case, I don't see a moral difference between taking a life that hasn't started vs taking a life that has done damage to the world.
 
See, this is the problem: what authority are we going to reference here? (I'd suggest the Medical Profession.) At least with the death penalty it's crystal clear what's happening. The state is ending a viable life, as punishment for some crime.
 
Wästed The Great said:
By YOUR definition, a fetus isn't a human being. There is the sticky part. Some consider life starting at conception. If that is the case, I don't see a moral difference between taking a life that hasn't started vs taking a life that has done damage to the world.
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Well I never said my definition and my thoughts is the general definition and general thought. I don't consider the life to start at conception and frankly I think it's silly to consider it to start at conception. It starts at birth.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
"Taking a life that hasn't started..." --do you want to re-word that?
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No, I don't think so. You understand my point, and I'm not certain when life 'starts'. I'm playing devil's advocate here somewhat.

I'd look at your claim of 'viable life' and ask, at what point is a fetus a viable life?
 
Are you asking me personally? That's an absurd question. I'm not a doctor & it depends on individual cases, clearly. Whereas, with criminals facing the death penalty --is the fact that they are alive in any doubt? No. The comparison is a real stretch.
 
I'm positing the question in general.

I'm not in favor of either abortion or the death penalty.
 
You're conflating two separate points: viable foetuses & when life starts. The difference, from a medical standpoint, is critical; since they do not, patently, go hand-in-hand i.e. one can judge life to have started (10 weeks say) & not (at 10 weeks) have a foetus that would survive without the mother.
 
I guess, more what I'm trying to get at, is if one believes in the right to life, why allow it to be stopped at any point?

Again, playing devil's advocate. I'm always interested in the 'why'. It seems that a lot of people have an opinion, but don't actually know why they do.
 
Also, I should point out, I'm just looking at why someone believes morally one way versus another.

It seems the main consensus here is that the death penalty shouldn't be legal. Based on the moral decision that no one should have the right to take another's life, the 'State' included.
 
The Flash said:
I don't consider the life to start at conception and frankly I think it's silly to consider it to start at conception. It starts at birth.
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Actually, it doesn't start at birth. You not only feel the baby moving, but you can also feel its emotions: every loud bang causes it to startle and its heartbeat starts racing. You can also feel when it's calm and relaxed - its heartbeat matches your own. You can feel its fingers scratching as it's trying to explore its surroundings. If you press your belly gently, it will press back. Babies even get the hiccups in the womb and you can feel that.

That said, I totally support abortion if the baby has little or no chance to live. I also support the right to decide whether to abort the foetus within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy based on nothing but your will.

Generally speaking, a foetus is considered viable after 23 weeks of pregnancy. But that depends on a ton of other factors as well. A couple of years ago, a baby was saved after being born at 22 weeks, weighing just about 400 gr. The baby is alive and well. In purely medical terms, this was not even a birth, but abortion. Yet, the baby survived against all odds.
 
I'm really pleased to see another state has abolished the death penalty. There are always people baying for it in this country, with a whole list of people they'd like to see killed, including repeat offenders, sex offenders, and murderers - including two men who tortured and killed a toddler when they were boys.
General concensus is still against it, recalling mistakes from the past like the Derek Bentley case, but a lot of people do treat the concept of hanging pretty casually, which makes me wonder if the idea will become more acceptable to more of the population.
 
Ariana --it's not, as I'm sure you know, widely reported (as the media love a "the medical profession told us it would die" story) but babies born this early, while surviving, have very little chance of growing up without medical problems. Not saying they don't grow up & enjoy life etc --just saying it's not as uncomplicated as is commonly reported.

And to Brigantium --I know this wasn't your own personal point, but it worries me that the only reason people seem to have against the death penalty is miscarriages of justice; as if (if this doubt could be removed) it would be perfectly okay. I'm against the death penalty for the reasons I've already cited. I genuinely think miscarriages of justice are a side-issue. Like you, it concerns me what people band about in regard to hanging.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Ariana --it's not, as I'm sure you know, widely reported (as the media love a "the medical profession told us it would die" story) but babies born this early, while surviving, have very little chance of growing up without medical problems. Not saying they don't grow up & enjoy life etc --just saying it's not as uncomplicated as is commonly reported.
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Of course these children are much more prone to growing up with problems. But this is not related to the discussion here. Wasted was asking when a foetus is considered viable - that's the answer: week 23 is considered the borderline. Some kids survive before that and sometimes others don't make it even when they are born much later, it's all individual.
 
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