Iron Maiden's integrity

[Forostar]

Lie is a harsh term. But when an artist makes statements where he says he takes pride in his artistic values and his way of sticking to them, I do think it's a financially motivated move, yes.

Not the whole world is money driven, you know. And definitely not all the time.

 

[The Flash]

I kinda thought that's what you thought, Flash; and at a philosophical level, in some respects, I probably agree. I think for the purposes of this discussion though, the question (for you certainly) will just have to be: at what end of sliding scale of integrity (as much integrity as one can feasibly have in this world vs. zero integrity) do you feel Maiden sit at?

Well you see, me holding Maiden to an integrity scale would be a fallacy. It would be like asking a person "How much do you think that atheist guy doesn't believe in God?". That would have the grand assumption that God does exist and that guy is simply denying it.

Not the whole world is money driven you know.

When your silly little band becomes a business, yes it is. I don't think you realize how much effort and investment goes into a professional band that reaches business level. The notion of "selling out" and "losing their integrity" due to their musical approaches and the Napster case cost Metallica thousands of fans and gave them bad publicity. They only started recovering from it in the late 2000s and actually put out an album that sounded like their older stuff as a reaction.

 

[nuno_c]

Sorry, you don't see what?

Any specific example

 

[Forostar]

But, Flash, then what do you like about the people behind the music? Are you interested in their motivations or could the musicians be robots, just the same?

 

[nuno_c]

Well you see, me holding Maiden to an integrity scale would be a fallacy. It would be like asking a person "How much do you think that atheist guy doesn't believe in God?". That would have the grand assumption that God does exist and that guy is simply denying it.



When your silly little band becomes a business, yes it is. I don't think you realize how much effort and investment goes into a professional band that reaches business level. The notion of "selling out" and "losing their integrity" due to their musical approaches and the Napster case cost Metallica thousands of fans and gave them bad publicity. They only started recovering from it in the late 2000s and actually put out an album that sounded like their older stuff as a reaction.

It's relative.

If you love what you do and take real pleasure out of it, the finished product will be sincere. Then you make money, and money's good. Really good!

But if you do it in line with the taste/trend of the month, educated people will see through the bs. And then you will make money, because the masses will follow.

What i mean to say is that, obviously, when a lot of people like what you do, you will make money. But at least you can do something that you believe in, and that's the case with Maiden.

 

[nuno_c]

Take my job as an example. I do make a lot of money. But god, do i love what i do! And i'm able to do it sincerily because i love it.

Before the band was signed, they still did not change their image although they were offered a contract. They eventually got succesfull in their own right. They were lucky. But they were also persistent.

 

[The Flash]

But, Flash, then what do you like about the people behind the music? Are you interested in their motivations or could the musicians be robots, just the same?

I don't really care about their personalities aside from what I see on stage and what I hear music related.

I'm interested in Adrian Smith, the musician. I'm as interested in Adrian Smith, the person, as I'm interested in some random guy.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

It's relative.

If you love what you do and take real pleasure out of it, the finished product will be sincere. Then you make money, and money's good. Really good!

This is wishful thinking, rather than reality though. Loads of people take pleasure in making music & are sincere (whatever you mean by that). This doesn't necessarily equate to being successful in the sense of making money.

But if you do it in line with the taste/trend of the month, educated people will see through the bs. And then you will make money, because the masses will follow.

Indeed. Being broadly popular is likely to land you more money, than if you only appeal to an "educated" few.

But at least you can do something that you believe in, and that's the case with Maiden.

... you are assuming.

I'm interested in Adrian Smith, the musician. I'm as interested in Adrian Smith, the person, as I'm interested in some random guy.

You're not interested in Adrian's fishing exploits?!

 

[nuno_c]

This is wishful thinking, rather than reality though. Loads of people take pleasure in making music & are sincere (whatever you mean by that). This doesn't necessarily equate to being successful in the sense of making money.
Indeed. Being broadly popular is likely to land you more money, than if you only appeal to an "educated" few.
... you are assuming.
You're not interested in Adrian's fishing exploits?!

In the first quote i meant making money as a bonus, not as something that is certain

 

[Forostar]

I don't really care about their personalities aside from what I see on stage and what I hear music related.

I'm interested in Adrian Smith, the musician. I'm as interested in Adrian Smith, the person, as I'm interested in some random guy.

I am not sure if you understand the connection between a person and their eventual output of music. It doesn't happen by a simple click of the finger. Even not with Adrian Smith.

DVDs that contain interviews with Adrian Smith or other members, can you enjoy watching these if you'd have a little voice inside the back of your head, saying "yeah right" after every sentence?

Talk about music, is often no hollow talk. As much as it is connected with personality, it is undoubtedly connected with artistic values, in other words: with integrity. Passion, motivation, these are the catalysts that lead to output, the music. All comes from within and it can be uttered by musicians. If you take everything that is said with a grain of salt, then I don't only wonder if you lack the appreciation of but also if you have an idea of how creating works. You can say you're not interested, but denying it is an entirely different matter.

However, if you say you are interested in what you hear music related, that might mean that you are interested in talk about music. In that case, you do believe in artistic values, because they are the core of about everything a musician does and says, definitely if it's music related.

 

[nuno_c]

I am not sure if you understand the connection between a person and their eventual output of music. It doesn't happen by a simple click of the finger. Even not with Adrian Smith.

DVDs that contain interviews with Adrian Smith or other members, can you enjoy watching these if you'd have a little voice inside the back of your head, saying "yeah right" after every sentence?

Talk about music, is often no hollow talk. As much as it is connected with personality, it is undoubtedly connected with artistic values, in other words: with integrity. Passion, motivation, these are the catalysts that lead to output, the music. All comes from within and it can be uttered by musicians. If you take everything that is said with a grain of salt, then I don't only wonder if you lack the appreciation of but also if you have an idea of how creating works. You can say you're not interested, but denying it is an entirely different matter.

However, if you say you are interested in what you hear music related, that might mean that you are interested in talk about music. In that case, you do believe in artistic values, because they are the core of about everything a musician does and says, definitely if it's music related.

Exactly.

I've said this before and i'll say it again: If even when they were in fact in need of making money they refused to do one simple thing (hair style) that would not be on their own terms, i don't believe that now, considering that and the fact that now they do have more than enough money, they would do something purely for financial reasons.

They're at a point where they can do what they want. They could spend the rest of their career just doing the same kind of gigs and people would still show up. The fact that they still produce music (and good music) is in itself a testament to this band's will.

 

[The Flash]

Yes, I lack the appreciation and I have no idea how creating works, Foro. You may continue calling my knowledge out just because you disagree with my view, as you always do. Just know, brands and their market value in industries matter. They do in music industry as well. You keep continuing this accusation of me calling musicians liars, a notion which I have rejected before. I don't take "everything" a musician says with a grain of salt. I simply consider the integrity thing in entertainment business a myth. You obviously don't care about anything that is posted as an answer here, so I don't really know why I bother to write anything.

 

[nuno_c]

Yes, I lack the appreciation and I have no idea how creating works, Foro. You may continue calling my knowledge out just because you disagree with my view, as you always do. Just know, brands and their market value in industries matter. They do in music industry as well. You keep continuing this accusation of me calling musicians liars, a notion which I have rejected before. You obviously don't care about anything that is posted as an answer here.

The market value of my work exists, just like in any other business. But i believe in it. If i did not work for this company, i would be a client because i honestly believe in the project. I think the same can and does apply to music. Business? Sure. But with people behind it who can, surely, believe in and love what they do, regardless of it's market value.

 

[The Flash]

The market value of my work exists, just like in any other business. But i believe in it. If i did not work for this company, i would be a client because i honestly believe in the project. I think the same can and does apply to music. Business? Sure. But with people behind it who can, surely, believe in and love what they do, regardless of it's market value.

Do you work in an entertainment business with companies having a say in your creative efforts? If not, your work is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[nuno_c]

Do you work in an entertainment business with companies having a say in your creative efforts? If not, your work is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Other companies do have (or tend to) dictate directions, but to this day i'm yet to say yes to any of them. The result was a hugely satisfied client base (fan base) because of the respect they feel and see that i have for them. Also... relax. The world is indeed a dirty place full with even dirtier people, but there are some cool exceptions, i found out.

 

[The Flash]

Other companies do have (or tend to) dictate directions, but to this day i'm yet to say yes to any of them.

Are you a a professional brand by yourself? Do you have market value? Although some people seem to want to change the debate into personal integrity matters, my arguments have solely been about integrities of artists' brands. This is not about Adrian Smith's personal integrity. This is about the brand that is Iron Maiden. A brand that does merchandising. A brand that gets invited to venues and plays them. The whole "We're sticking to what we like" thing is merely a business attempt. You don't have to SAY IT for it to be true. If you come out and say you take pride in it, that's a financial move in my book.

 

[nuno_c]

Are you a a professional brand by yourself? Do you have market value? Although some people seem to want to change the debate into personal integrity matters, my arguments have solely been about integrities of artists' brands. This is not about Adrian Smith's personal integrity. This is about the brand that is Iron Maiden. A brand that does merchandising. A brand that gets invited to venues and plays them. The whole "We're sticking to what we like" thing is merely a business attempt. You don't have to SAY IT for it to be true. If you come out and say you take pride in it, that's a financial move in my book.

We do have market value and are a brand. We have an image to protect and maintain. All of that, obviously.

If somebody was to ask me what are my views on what it is that i do, one of the many things i would have to say (because they are true) would be that i believe in what i do. Just like Maiden if they're asked the same question. But if you're talking, say, to Bruce about airplanes, he would not stick in there the whole bit of "i believe in maiden" because thatis not the question. Journalists do tend to always ask the same questions, though.

 

[eddie666]

They did a dodgy deal with Nike I think. Still, they had to wear the stuff so what goes around... haha!
I'm sure lots of things go down, but I like this bands identity/spirit more than any other. It's probably bs but what the hell. Got to believe in something, even if it isn't real.

 

[SixesAlltheway]

You're absolutely right with your "Nike" analogy @eddie666 , just....replace it with music companies like "Marshall", "Jackson", "Paiste", "Premier" etc etc etc. They have company endorsements and get free stuff thrown at them all the time for a little advertisement. I don't think Nicko spends much on all the stuff he uses on tour for example....

I think Bruce definitely helps paint the picture of the band as being this blue collar hard working band who doesn't give a shit...With his rants on stage. No matter how true or not it is, he definitely sells it to the fans too.

But yeah, there's a lot of people in suits at EMI and elsewhere pulling a lot of strings too that people don't think about. Maiden was definitely part of that whole music industry machine big time in the 80s. Being pushed to "make an album, go on tour, make an album, go on tour" for about 10 years. Strike while the iron is hot and all that.....

 

[harrisdevot]

Do you have market value? Although some people seem to want to change the debate into personal integrity matters, my arguments have solely been about integrities of artists' brands. This is not about Adrian Smith's personal integrity. This is about the brand that is Iron Maiden. A brand that does merchandising. A brand that gets invited to venues and plays them. The whole "We're sticking to what we like" thing is merely a business attempt. You don't have to SAY IT for it to be true. If you come out and say you take pride in it, that's a financial move in my book.

Iron Maiden, as a brand, has to make money, it's a business, and many people make a living with it and depend on Maiden. I once read an interview with Araya who said that Slayer had to keep on touring, because people lived thanks to that, including his own brother. That doesn't bother me. But don't you think that musicians' personal attitude towards business matters ? I mean, Adrian Smith releasing a record with zero possiblity to make money out of it, Steve Harris doing the same and touring twice with ridiculous ticket prices : aren't those things the best proof that these guys actually love music, touring, and that their lives are not entirely driven by greed ? That makes them highly respectable individuals to my eyes, people I can admire without feeling fooled.