General Discussion

That is the reason (at least by 1944 or really after Stalingrad) that they wanted to end the war .. preserve Germany. Germany was able to use the "Unconditional Surrender" demands by the allies to good propaganda purpose to continue the war up until the end.

I think to a degree you need to look at this in context of Germany/Prussia from the Napoleonic Wars on, they had gained and lost substantial amounts of territory .. but kept the German states/Germany in tact. These guys all knew that history.
 
I'll go into detail and source this all for you when I have the time, but I have to be off now.
 
.. but kept the German states/Germany in tact. These guys all knew that history.
730px-Germanborders.svg.png
 
Right .. up until 1918 that had generally been the case ... Alsace-Lorraine had flipped back and forth as had the Eastern border. But probably the worst nightmare for these guys was the loss of Prussia in any form .. which happened in 1945
 
Popular history has him commit suicide because that was the only way he could keep his honour and not be tried for high treason, although he probably did it because he wanted to save his family.

I'm not too knowledgeable on it myself really (and probably should stay out the topic to avoid looking foolish and out of my depth ;p), but I was under the impression it was 'forced suicide' to save his family rather than anything about saving honour. Something along the lines of they offered him a choice of take the cyanide pill and his family would be safe, or resist and life would be difficult for all?

Regardless of his involvements in the conspiracy he is at the very least known to have been a decent person when it came to the treatment of prisoners etc, also refusing to hand over Jews to the authorities (or so I have read?). He was no doubt a damned good general and military leader though.
 
Hmm I can only repeat bearfan's quote. Which I perhaps misunderstood. I thought he implied that since the Napoleonic Wars, the German states/Germany were kept in tact until the end of WWII. The picture shows that this isn't the case. Unless I misunderstand the picture. ;--)
 
Well, I'm not sure I agree entirely with bearfan, but he's got a point about Germany remaining generally intact. The losses to German territory after the Versailles Treaty did not threaten the existence of the German Empire, or the identity of Germany. The only losses that were really painful to the country were Danzig, a major German port on the Baltic, and Upper Silesia, which was a major industrial area. Alsace-Lorraine was definitely a blow to German pride, but for the rest... the large territory of Posen-Westpreußen was mostly rural, agricultural territory, and the only ones whom that really hurt were the Prussian aristocrats who owned most of the land. But not only did they still have a lot of where that came from, but it did not tilt the balance within Germany, and Prussia remained the dominant state.

The territorial re-arrangement of Germany following the Second World War was, however, very different, and changed the identity of Germany in a substantial way. Germany lost major urban centres, vast agricultural and industrial areas and had a good chunk of its population relocated, but the real change that took place, and that was never reversed even after re-unification, was that the political balance within Germany was completely changed. Prussia, which had dominated Germany in every way, ceased to exist forever, urban and rural territories within Germany became much more homogenised, and the many small states were fused to create a smaller number of bigger political entities. I'm not saying these changes were bad, I'm just saying that a member of the military Prussian aristocracy would not have been favourable of that. I don't know how much of that was honestly anticipated by Germans of the time, but it must have been obvious that whatever would happen to Germany after Allied occupation would have put the military aristocracy in a bad situation.
 
It has always struck me as ironic that one of Hitler's goals was a German state of ethnic Germans .. and that is exactly what happened after the war .. not just to Germany, but to many states Poland became Polish (and lost a fair amount of traditional Polish farming territory to the USSR in exchange for land that had been German), etc. Back to the topic, I think if the German generals who were in the plot or considering joining the plot against Hitler knew that any peace would have to include the loss of Prussia, many of them would have fought to the end.
 
Hmm I can only repeat bearfan's quote. Which I perhaps misunderstood. I thought he implied that since the Napoleonic Wars, the German states/Germany were kept in tact until the end of WWII. The picture shows that this isn't the case. Unless I misunderstand the picture. ;--)

I could have stated it clearer, I think they stayed generally intact compared to what happened after WWII. I think the plotters probably assumed Germany would have some losses of territory, but not to the magnitude of what ended up happening and all the forced expulsions (and deaths) that ended up happening.
 
Prussia, which had dominated Germany in every way
How exactly had they dominated in every way during the WWII years? Do you also mean politically? Wasn't that kind of domination already over before the war had started? Did they also dominate in the army during WWII (e.g. if we look at officers)?
 
You're taking what I said out of context. I know that the Nazis had dissolved the Prussian state, but it was obvious that the organisation of Germany the Nazis had introduced would be discontinued after defeat in the war. The Prussian aristocracy hoped to revive the Prussian state after the war. And yes, Prussian aristocracy dominated the Wehrmacht. Just have a cursory glance at the names of the leading generals of the Wehrmacht, and you'll see a lot of von's, Graf's, etc. Those were all Prussian noblemen.
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to take it out of context. I was trying to develop an opinion on the "real change" comment. Will glance over the generals (never done that before).
 
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