GATEKEEPERS!!!! ... or: the butthurt modern listeners.

Diesel 11 said:
How are they equally gimmick bands?
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I didn't say anything about "equally". One could argue about degrees of "gimmickness" sorry for that atrocious word but I'm not that interested in that angle. I meant it in the sense of "do these bands have a recognizable gimmick?" and for both of them the answer is yes, in my opinion.

Maiden have always put effort into their visual identity. Their logos, the artwork, Eddie, the theatrical props in their live shows, and so on. We are talking about a band that has a dude in stilts walking around the stage play-fighting with various band members. Or stuff like the stage turning into a giant tank on the AMOLAD tour. The inflatable Spitfire on LOTB. Even when they tried stripping down their sound and image in the early 90s we still had Eddie bust out of a giant coffin.
While there are a few albums here and there that are seen as weaker, I think we can all agree that Maiden haven't compromised the artistry of their sound for the most part. Like, yeah, Steve for example gets a lot of shit for the "2 minutes quiet intro/outro", but I think most would still agree that he's doing what he wants, that he genuinely believes that what he's writing and delivers deserves to be released and heard. That's why I think it would be fair to say Maiden use gimmicks or have a gimmick (Eddie and all the visual stuff), without saying "they are a gimmick band" and meaning that in a negative way.

I can't really judge Ghost's music, since I don't listen to them. They clearly have a visual gimmick that is obviously one of the reasons for their popularity. There also seems to be a mismatch of their visual identity and sound, since the latter seems to be much less heavy than what their looks would imply. What I find is annoying when people conflate "Ghost suck" and "they have a gimmick" into one opinion. No one needs to like them, I don't really care for them. But just because they have a marketable gimmick doesn't mean they suck for that reason. It's a leap in logic that I see quite often. Might seem like semantics or overanalyzing negative opinions, but personally I find it more interesting if people would be more precise with their criticisms. It's obviously a lot to ask for, but it's also far more enjoyable to engage with. Seeing how people approach certain topics and how they express their ideas can be pretty fascinating, at least to me.

TL;DR: They aren't equally gimmicky but both use recognizable gimmicks, which is not a negative thing to me.
 
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Vaenyr said:
TL;DR: They aren't equally gimmicky but both use recognizable gimmicks, which is not a negative thing to me.
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Sorry, I disagree with both you and Yax. Ghost is a gimmick band, Maiden have gimmicks. To be clear, I don’t think that gimmick is a negative term. Probably a better way to phrase it is that Ghost are a conceptual group. Their music and their image are intertwined; their whole concept is essentially that they’re a Satanic cult writing pop metal. I think it’s pretty cool, but it’s still a gimmick.

Maiden are absolutely gimmicky, but their music is not part of some larger concept. This to me is the distinction.
 
The Garlon said:
Ghost is absolutely metal. They use all the same chord progressions, lyrical themes, chugging guitar riffs, etc as other metal bands. Judas Priest has radio friendly hit songs. By your logic Priest isn't metal. This whole "I don't like this band so that means they aren't metal" argument is beyond tiresome.
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All the classic bands have radio friendly hit songs, that's why Ghost were a breath of fresh air, bringing back hits and toning down the influences from extreme metal.
 
Diesel 11 said:
Sorry, I disagree with both you and Yax. Ghost is a gimmick band, Maiden have gimmicks. To be clear, I don’t think that gimmick is a negative term. Probably a better way to phrase it is that Ghost are a conceptual group. Their music and their image are intertwined; their whole concept is essentially that they’re a Satanic cult writing pop metal. I think it’s pretty cool, but it’s still a gimmick.

Maiden are absolutely gimmicky, but their music is not part of some larger concept. This to me is the distinction.
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That's fair. If I think gimmick band my mind goes to the various power metal bands that have one concept like knights, pirates, wizards and what not, who base everything around that. I'm not familiar enough with Ghost to know if their songs and topics all revolve around the same concepts or not.
 
Also, there's nothing more gimmicky than Death Metal and Black Metal :lol:

Bunches of social outcasts singing about eating babies and burning churches:lol:
 
srfc said:
You can throw in dungeons and dragons bands, and cunts writing tuneless shit in odd time signatures to impress nerds, too.
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Yeah, there are musical gimmicks too, if you can call them that (you'd have to widen the definition of a gimmick, I suppose). I have a coworker who finds Maiden's galloping incredibly cringy and "gimmicky" and thinks Run to the Hills is hilarious (and bad).
 
srfc said:
Also, there's nothing more gimmicky than Death Metal and Black Metal :lol:

Bunches of social outcasts singing about eating babies and burning churches:lol:
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There are plenty of gimmicky bands in both genres but they are not gimmicky in-and-of themselves.
 
srfc said:
You can throw in dungeons and dragons bands, and cunts writing tuneless shit in odd time signatures to impress nerds, too.
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Where's the report button?

im-in-this-photo-and-i-dont-like-it.png


:D
 
I love the whole Eddie gimmick ,and it`s very saleable too and not just for Maiden.

Quite a few people wouldn`t have made a few quid on Ebay selling the empty beer bottles for example without the Eddie gimmick.
 
Fozzie said:
I love the whole Eddie gimmick ,and it`s very saleable too and not just for Maiden.

Quite a few people wouldn`t have made a few quid on Ebay selling the empty beer bottles for example without the Eddie gimmick.
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:hello: I once sold one for £9.99 (including postage and packaging).

I have a few more available in case you are interested. :P
 
Eddie's Uncle said:
DISCLAIMER:
I start this thread because of the discussion about Ghost in the Maiden tour thread. I chose Ghost here again, because they (or rather parts of their fanbase) are a very good example for what I am trying to say. Of course, most of my points also apply to a whole bunch of other bands too.
So, this is NOT a thread about Ghost specifically, and while reading, you can also fill in Rammstein, Slipknot, Nightwish, Marilyn Manson....

Ok?

I noticed that a significant part (!!!) of Ghost's fanbase (or other bands mentioned above) seem to have a serious problem with their self esteem. How so?
Write anything remotely critical about the band online. Then sit back.

3.... 2.... 1.... Here they come:

GATEKEEPER!!!!
ELITIST!!!!
HATER!!!!!!

How very predictable.

Well, in some cases, yes, you are right. Some people are just that. However, mostly people simply bring up actual facts and add their opinion to it, and nothing else. You immediately starting yelling about it, merely proves that they obviously hit some sore spot right on..

What do "Gatekeepers / Haters / Elitists" usually "criticise" about Ghost (/the other mentioned bands)?
Let's see.

1) "Ghost is commercial". Well, they fill arenas, are in the charts and get played on the radio. This simply does not happen if a band is not commercial. Why are you even debating this?
2) "Ghost are selling out". What does selling out mean? It means that you are deliberately streamlining your art with the goal to sell more. Wether this is alright or a no-no can surely be debated. The fact that Ghost are actually doing exactly this, however, can not.
3) "Ghost are a gimmick band". Again, why do you even dispute this? They have costumes, their own lore, staying in character constantly, use huge props and special imagery constantly without exception. If that's not gimmicky, then what is?
4) "Ghost are not Heavy Metal". Well... they aren't. They are a crossover band with slices of Heavy Metal influences. So what's so problematic about saying they are not a Heavy Metal band? If I say "they ain't funk rock", you would not be enraged. "Not Heavy Metal" is the same thing. Why do you explode about this?

So, what if I bring up any of those 4 points?
Did I say they suck and are fucking faggots? That would make me a hater.
Did I say they HAVE to be Heavy Metal? That would make me a gatekeeper.
Did I say they are terrible musicians because they are gimmicky? Did I say they can't be good if they are selling out? That would make me an elitist.

But I didn't say any of that. I just said I don't like them much (a legit personal opinion) and grounded this opinion on one or several of the above mentioned facts. And you call such a thing "hating" and "elitism"?
That's very worrying, actually. At the very least, it just shows you are butthurt because someone does not appreciate what you like. In that case, not the "gatekeeper" is the crybaby here. You are.

This has become a common trend among current audiences. Someone disapproves what you like? HATER! Someone cares about certain values within the subculture that you don't care about? GATEKEEPER!
Gatekeeper is the most overused accusation of the past 5 years.

Equally funny / sad are the usual responses from such fans after you dared to not agree with their holy heroes. We can play bingo with the predictable "rebuttals"

Oh yeah? How many albums have YOU sold? Much less. So what's your point here? Am I only allowed to dislike something if I can do better? Ok, I remind you of that next time you complain about politicians / your favourite basketball team / your kindergarten teacher.

But they sell millions of records!!! Yeah. They do. Thanks. I know. How is this going to prove me wrong? In fact, it SUPPORTS my claims.

Band XY is doing the same!!! Yeah, maybe so. So what? Do you know the word whataboutism?

You are just too stupid to understand the band!!!! Yeah, I am really dumb. Wait, who is the elitist right now? Hmmm....

A sad development. And no, I am not saying all the fans are like that. Repeat: a significant part of the fanbase!


Thanks for reading. Opinions?
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LOL ill give them a try for sure.
 
Also, there's something so incredibly hypocritical, ironic and hilarious about going out of your way to call out certain fanbases (by being obnoxious and deliberately attacking them and their tastes in order to offend them and get a reaction) and ranting about "crybabies" and all that, while being so butthurt that people called you out on your bad posts that you needed to start a new thread with an enormous opening post crying and whining about why it's actually okay to attack others lol
 
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