First step for true freedom.

Marcus Agrippa

Marcus Agrippa

Prowler
    Freedom is not given, and cannot come from society or from the things around you. Freedom comes from within.
    The most important kind of freedom is freedom from one self, because upon this freedom all others are based.
    Freedom from ones fears, needs, wants, desires, stereotypes, hates and others, are the basis for happiness, love, success and a well lived life.
    If you fear been broke then you'll enslave yourself to do things you don’t want to do for money, if you need love at all cost you'll enslave yourself in a relationship that's not good for you, if you stereotype people and things you'll reject them at once before even knowing if you'll enjoy them and experience life thru them.
    An old friend told me once to take care of my soul and mind because they're the only things that no one can take from me. No one can be a slave unless he chooses to be one. If you are a slave no one can give you your freedom but yourself.  the slave is the one who gives the slave driver his whip.
 
"First steps for spiritual or inner freedom" would be a more appropriate topic tile. If you mean freedom in general it sounds like: Follow the hermit and all will be OK.

Isolation and hiding from the real world is never a good idea. What good can come of it?

I find some of your text a black and white view on the world you seem to live in. I like the mid-part, but I wonder at the beginning and at the end.

"Freedom is not given, and cannot come from society or from the things around you."

I agree that individuals are the ones who deal with their freedom, and with the freedom of others. Still, parents, education, friends and even media can influence the individual. As you know, most of us don't live like hermits, we live together in a society.

By fundamental (human) rights, laws, rules, we have a basis for freedom.

The size of freedom is different per country. So the individual has to deal with different factors if he plans to go to different places. If he chooses to ignore everything that goes on around him, he locks up his own view, mind, and concience. That's in my opinion the opposite of freedom.

Freedom might come from within but it doesn't exclude other factors. Things go together and therefore it's not either this, either that. It's a combination of everything.

"the slave is the one who gives the slave driver his whip"

Could you explain this one a bit more?
 
Marcus Agrippa said:
Freedom from ones fears, needs, wants, desires, stereotypes, hates and others, are the basis for happiness, love, success and a well lived life.
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That particular sentiment is the heart and essence of Buddhism.
 
"I agree that individuals are the ones who deal with their freedom, and with the freedom of others. Still, parents, education, friends and even media can influence the individual. As you know, most of us don't live like hermits, we live together in a society." forostar

This is precisely my point; we have to let ourselves be influence by the world around us in order to be able to be free. Most people even thou they live in a society and seem to be part of it, in their harts live like hermits because they stereotype things and people, are afraid of failure or are locked up in a worthless relationship, so they never experience life, and create their personality based on ideas or illusions, not fact or experience.

"By fundamental (human) rights, laws, rules, we have a basis for freedom." forostar

As long as these rights and laws are written by free minded people they constitute the basis for freedom, but when these are written by people who hate or are in fear then the constitute the basis for mass enslavement. These is why the first step for any kind of freedom comes from within, otherwise these laws will only create unnecessary conflict.

"Freedom might come from within but it doesn't exclude other factors. Things go together and therefore it's not either this, either that. It's a combination of everything." forostar

I agree, but I believe you have to free yourself first then go about dealing with the things that life throws at you.

"I find some of your text a black and white view on the world you seem to live in."  forostar

It's presented as a black and white statement for argument sake, I understand that everything has shades of grey.

The slave is the one who gives the slave driver his whip because in the end it's our choice be slaves to money, other people ideas or anything else, so we can't blame others people for our problems, in the end it's our choice.
 
Marcus Agrippa said:
The slave is the one who gives the slave driver his whip because in the end it's our choice be slaves to money, other people ideas or anything else, so we can't blame others people for our problems, in the end it's our choice.
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That's quite hard to get free from money, in view of the world we're linving in.
 
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porcnoz said:
That's quite hard to get free from money, in view of the world we're linving in.
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The example I gave of freedom from money doesn't imply that the person should not seek monetary well being, rather that this shouldn't be tied to our personality or that this should be the reason for our lives.
If we buy a car that we desperately want we run the risk of tying our emotional well being to the car, so if it gets dented we suffer.
This is why we can seek monetary well being, just as long as we don’t become slaves to it.
 
I think the key to material wealth and happiness is asking ourselves the question: "Why do I want it?"  If the answer is to "compete with the Jones'" then we are buying for the wrong reason.  If the explanation lies in some happiness from using that material weath or for practical reasons then we can be happy or at least satisfied.
 
Genghis Khan said:
I think the key to material wealth and happiness is asking ourselves the question: "Why do I want it?"  If the answer is to "compete with the Jones'" then we are buying for the wrong reason.  If the explanation lies in some happiness from using that material weath or for practical reasons then we can be happy or at least satisfied.
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I agree, but also it must be taken into account what does the thing we  are buying means to us, because, as I said before, sometimes things become part of our personality and that can weaken our freedom from it.
 
Upon some emailing with Marcus, I decided to post this.

I like the concept of "true freedom".  The reason it is not discussed much is that the term "freedom" itself can be ambiguous depending on which philosophical spectrum you're coming form.  As SMX said, your topic could be interpreted as that of Buddhism. 

Another thing is that this requires a HUGE amount of introspection, something that most people do poorly and devote even less time to.  The first step, therefore, can easily be introspection which is something popular in most philosophies.  Unfortunately, no unifying philosophy has a major role in modern societies. 

There is a philosophy of education, philosophy of politics, but nothing like philosophy of how to live one's life freely or living it the right way.  In a modern society, and even during the time of Ancient Greece, most people were simply concerned with day-to-day business.  The overwhelming philosophy of all time is "who has the time to spend thinking about such things".  We (i.e. most people) only contemplate such toughts when we realize that something is wrong, for example, when we feel trapped in a situation that we feel is not of our own making.  Only then do we start to contemplate such questions of freedom and "is this right or wrong".

Anyway, true freedom does change frequently depending on context and what is available to us in terms of political freedom, material wealth, education, etc, particularly the last one.  The more you know, the more you can make informed choices. 

About material wealth in general, I would not say that material weath in itself can tie us down and prevent freedom.  However, if one loses something material and can still lead a successful life, i.e. not be destitute or homeless, than that material wealth should not have a devesting affect on the person.  If this replaceable loss of material wealth does affect the person highly negatively, e.g. guilt, obsession, rage, etc., then we can say that piece of material weath is preventing him/her from being free because that person cannot let it go.  I hope this last thought/paragraph makes sense and is easily understood, as this is meant as a reply to Marcus' last comment.
 
I completely agree with the ideas being expressed in this thread. Part of the reason I've been so happy since last year is a lot of these things have been clicking in my head one by one. Granted, like GK said it has taken A LOT of introspection and thought and even though I've been actively at it since I was 12 only now (12 years later) am I seeing the fruits of it. In short... be happy with yourself, and the world will be at your feet.
 
Sometimes your work on introspections can get sidelined.  I remember going through a bit of emotional trouble during my younger days, i.e. depression.  It seems like I've lost a section of my life and have not learnt as much from that period.  I'm not mentioning this because I'm down, but rather Onhell's post reminded me that my introspection was virtually non-existant during that time.  Funny, how that sounds.  Being self-absorbed is so far away from self-reflection, yet they seem the same.  What a paradox!
 
This is quite obviously an extremely deep subject.

I would find it very hard to determine "true freedom". However I agree with Onhell's comment "be happy with yourself, and the world will be at your feet."

Like most people I have been through some really bad times in my life; parents divorced when I was 7, and more recently my Mother died on 12th October 2007 at the age of 53.

But even though these things have happened I have and will always live as a free person. What I mean by "free person" is that I recognize my personality faults but am still happy with myself as a person, and therefore no matter what happens I know that I can be me and always be happy, even when painful events come my way. Such as those I mentioned above.

I read George Orwell's book, 1984 last October and it made me think of the world we live in at the moment. It made me realise that the world would be far worse if it ended up like that. And therefore made me grateful I'm alive and for the basic freedom we have now; being able to read books, or go for a beer with friends.

Don't get me wrong, I do recognize the bad things going on in the world; war in Iraq, famine in Africa etc but those things are a far cry from the state of the world in 1984.

Anyone agree?
 
I found Brave New World scarier, because it is an uber-liberal, capitalist society, more of it can be seen in today's society than the two or three ideas in 1984 (2 minutes of hate, newspeak and constant surveillance).
 
Pharmaceuticals and illusions created by them, eh?!  I've wanted to read the book for a long time, but something always comes up.
 
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