European Politics
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Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
What does this post even mean.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
Lol. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is downright hilarious.
Azas, do you really think that on a forum where prominent members seems to think that Allende was a moderate (or at least not bolshevik enough; I really shudder at the thought who would be enough) and we should mourn his loss will agree with your (admittedly one-sided) diatribes attacking their very political identity? Read the room, mate, this is so tone deaf even I, who often agrees with a lot of your positions (though possibly for different reasons), won't be supporting you here. Give it a rest. Also, as an argument, it's kinda ... dunno, I didn't even manage to finish it, sorry.
(also, I'd recommend changing your vocabulary, I'd argue what you really mean is "neo-Marxist", however that's something progleft also won't accept as a term, much like "woke", they consider it "conservative dogwhistle", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean, so I'd suggest using for example "intersectionality" for this, that's a neutral term that actually describes a lot of the vileness within)
(I earned my one and only warning here for defending you, so I reserve the eternal right to tell you to go touch grass)
As for the rest, lol, yes, of course your side improves society and the other is pure eeevil. You merely want to build a new world, a better world. A .. brave new world, dare I say?
Azas, do you really think that on a forum where prominent members seems to think that Allende was a moderate (or at least not bolshevik enough; I really shudder at the thought who would be enough) and we should mourn his loss will agree with your (admittedly one-sided) diatribes attacking their very political identity? Read the room, mate, this is so tone deaf even I, who often agrees with a lot of your positions (though possibly for different reasons), won't be supporting you here. Give it a rest. Also, as an argument, it's kinda ... dunno, I didn't even manage to finish it, sorry.
(also, I'd recommend changing your vocabulary, I'd argue what you really mean is "neo-Marxist", however that's something progleft also won't accept as a term, much like "woke", they consider it "conservative dogwhistle", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean, so I'd suggest using for example "intersectionality" for this, that's a neutral term that actually describes a lot of the vileness within)
(I earned my one and only warning here for defending you, so I reserve the eternal right to tell you to go touch grass)
As for the rest, lol, yes, of course your side improves society and the other is pure eeevil. You merely want to build a new world, a better world. A .. brave new world, dare I say?
I'll give Azas this, for all of his juvenile tantrum here; one thing I've noticed is that, yes, people firmly entrenched on a side of a political spectrum do seem alike in certain ways.
For one, it's always the others who are on the spectrum, they themselves are always just moderate, reasonable and want to do good. It's the others who are labeled. It's the others who have blind spots and flaws in their outview.
But as someone who has friends and acquaintances among both the far-left and the far-right, for all of the worldviews' toxicity, I admit that the one thing the left side of things is kinda worse is that people from that side of the spectrum seems to be much more easily and quickly devoured by politics. I disagree with my far-right friends on many things, but we can chill, the lefties are just... "I can't read this because Sanderson is a Mormon and gives tithes to a church that is transphobic" or something. For people who hate organised religion, it surely does feel more like a cult to the outsider. Give me fifteen minutes in a pub, I can get a far-righter saying something very, very left, I can't imagine the same with the far-leftie.
But that of course doesn't have anything to do with this thread or people here, just an observation that even people who know the arse from their elbow - in fact can name all the human wrist bones in Latin - can somewhat agree with Azas's sentiment, rude and rudimentary as it may be.
For one, it's always the others who are on the spectrum, they themselves are always just moderate, reasonable and want to do good. It's the others who are labeled. It's the others who have blind spots and flaws in their outview.
But as someone who has friends and acquaintances among both the far-left and the far-right, for all of the worldviews' toxicity, I admit that the one thing the left side of things is kinda worse is that people from that side of the spectrum seems to be much more easily and quickly devoured by politics. I disagree with my far-right friends on many things, but we can chill, the lefties are just... "I can't read this because Sanderson is a Mormon and gives tithes to a church that is transphobic" or something. For people who hate organised religion, it surely does feel more like a cult to the outsider. Give me fifteen minutes in a pub, I can get a far-righter saying something very, very left, I can't imagine the same with the far-leftie.
But that of course doesn't have anything to do with this thread or people here, just an observation that even people who know the arse from their elbow - in fact can name all the human wrist bones in Latin - can somewhat agree with Azas's sentiment, rude and rudimentary as it may be.
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
This "the left is so easily offended and consumed by politics" argument is so incredibly naive and doesn't reflect reality. The right constantly talks about politics, they often choose to not label it as such. They talk about "DEI", "CRT" (remember when that was a thing for a how minute?), "woke" and other phrases instead. They are outraged about Bud Light creating a single (!) custom beer can for a trans influencer, which then led to a pathetic attempt at cAnCeLiNg Bud Light by starting a useless boycott. Hell, right now conservatives in America are gearing up to boycott Walmart, good luck with that! As always it's just projection attacking the left and accusing them of the very things the right has always been doing. Or do I need to talk about the Satanic panic? Maiden's Number of the Beast? Harry Potter? The vehement opposition to the Civil Rights movement? Gay marriage? Trans rights?
I fucking wish right wingers would keep their political thoughts to themselves as much as they claim they do. Life would be much easier and calmer, but unfortunately that's never gonna happen.
I fucking wish right wingers would keep their political thoughts to themselves as much as they claim they do. Life would be much easier and calmer, but unfortunately that's never gonna happen.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
What an utterly idiotic statement, even for your standards. The bolded "single" was due to the context of the entire situation. The whole reasoning of the boycott was that the morons thought Bud Light was going woke and starting a trans line of beers, whatever the hell that means. When in fact it was a single beer can sent to an influencer to congratulate them. That's it. But way to go managing to cram the Nazis and the Holocaust into that. At least I can take solace that my wickedness and pure evil piss you off, I suppose lol
Yaaaawn, no one cares about these boring old strawmen. I'm a leftist. I like meat. I also think all people, including trans folks, should be treated with respect and dignity. Not a hard concept, is it?
I'm sorry that I have to be the one to inform you, but you're aware that the majority of people here don't read your overly wordy and convoluted messages and simply skim over it to get the general gist, right? Like, there's no way you actually believe people take the time to read every single word of your posts, right?
Also, I thought you didn't wanna interact with me anymore due to how much my beliefs were pissing you off. Maybe it's better for your blood pressure to let the ignored content stay ignored
Edit: Ah, someone decided to delete their post lol
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Azas
Eons, Eras, Periods, Epochs
Yesterday I was heading to bed, but I want to explain myself regarding those “lefties who throw paint at paintings.” @Diesel 11 — I’m definitely not against societal progress. I support green initiatives; I sort my trash, and I don’t litter — not in the streets, not in the forests. It’s just common sense: if you want to live in cleaner surroundings and preserve nature, you act like a decent human being.
Believe me, my country has come a long way since gaining independence in the ’90s. Back then, for the first decade, roadside areas and forest entrances were messy — it was normal to dump trash, used tires, and such in remote places. Nowadays, it’s like night and day. Our country is sitting on the European train, and we’re improving ourselves, being in a respected, high-standard company now. But sometimes, it feels like there’s a “carriage in front of the horse” situation.
Example: maybe my government wants to ban old cars to push people into buying electric vehicles. But that would be a dumb move, because the infrastructure isn’t fully developed yet — charging stations aren’t accessible countrywide. Also, electric cars are still too expensive, even with government support. All I’m saying is: the process of becoming greener should be gradual.
So I scratch my head when I see Germany shutting down all of its nuclear power plants. Of course, Germans can do what they want — it’s just my opinion. But that’s a bold move, especially when other superpowers are still using that form of energy. Aren’t you losing your economic competitiveness by closing them down so quickly? That’s the real question. I support change, but I believe it should be gradual and well thought out. That’s all.
As for those who throw paint at paintings — to me, they’re performers. At least throw paint at the moguls who run oil and polluting factories. I know these people might be liberal or green, but I call them “lefties” because I use the term for those who channel leftist ideas in an exaggerated way or… whatever, ha ha. I’m not perfect — I probably misuse the term — but I think many of us in Eastern Europe view “lefties” differently than people in the West do.
To me, these actions look stupid and virtual. These activists want to get rid of oil and coal, while people are still killing each other on this very planet. It’s a “carriage before the horse” kind of thing, at least for me. There’s war, hunger, and starvation — and yet, these folks attack works of art. Call me cynical, a fatalist, disillusioned — whatever — but in my opinion, that’s pathetic. That protest is as virtual as it gets. I’ve written this before somewhere: the West is busy contemplating virtuality and AI, but it’s forgetting that reality still bites. There’s russia, China, Iran, and so on.
I think now you get the idea of how I think. I hate how the West sometimes tries to blame itself for all the sins of the world. Hello — the world is still a very barbaric place. Don’t destroy yourself from within, dear West. That’s all.
In other words, don’t be a stupid cunt leftie. [joke mode on]
I get that for you English speakers, “leftie” or “leftist” literally just means someone who leans more left on the political spectrum — a neutral term. But I, and many from my country, use that word with a negative connotation.
Believe me, my country has come a long way since gaining independence in the ’90s. Back then, for the first decade, roadside areas and forest entrances were messy — it was normal to dump trash, used tires, and such in remote places. Nowadays, it’s like night and day. Our country is sitting on the European train, and we’re improving ourselves, being in a respected, high-standard company now. But sometimes, it feels like there’s a “carriage in front of the horse” situation.
Example: maybe my government wants to ban old cars to push people into buying electric vehicles. But that would be a dumb move, because the infrastructure isn’t fully developed yet — charging stations aren’t accessible countrywide. Also, electric cars are still too expensive, even with government support. All I’m saying is: the process of becoming greener should be gradual.
So I scratch my head when I see Germany shutting down all of its nuclear power plants. Of course, Germans can do what they want — it’s just my opinion. But that’s a bold move, especially when other superpowers are still using that form of energy. Aren’t you losing your economic competitiveness by closing them down so quickly? That’s the real question. I support change, but I believe it should be gradual and well thought out. That’s all.
As for those who throw paint at paintings — to me, they’re performers. At least throw paint at the moguls who run oil and polluting factories. I know these people might be liberal or green, but I call them “lefties” because I use the term for those who channel leftist ideas in an exaggerated way or… whatever, ha ha. I’m not perfect — I probably misuse the term — but I think many of us in Eastern Europe view “lefties” differently than people in the West do.
To me, these actions look stupid and virtual. These activists want to get rid of oil and coal, while people are still killing each other on this very planet. It’s a “carriage before the horse” kind of thing, at least for me. There’s war, hunger, and starvation — and yet, these folks attack works of art. Call me cynical, a fatalist, disillusioned — whatever — but in my opinion, that’s pathetic. That protest is as virtual as it gets. I’ve written this before somewhere: the West is busy contemplating virtuality and AI, but it’s forgetting that reality still bites. There’s russia, China, Iran, and so on.
I think now you get the idea of how I think. I hate how the West sometimes tries to blame itself for all the sins of the world. Hello — the world is still a very barbaric place. Don’t destroy yourself from within, dear West. That’s all.
In other words, don’t be a stupid cunt leftie. [joke mode on]
I get that for you English speakers, “leftie” or “leftist” literally just means someone who leans more left on the political spectrum — a neutral term. But I, and many from my country, use that word with a negative connotation.
____no5
Free Man
What left has to do with anything? AfD also wants to take it easy with Russia. Also leftists?
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
@Azas, the funniest thing about your hyper-fixation on those throwing paint at paintings is that we have confirmation at this point that many of those stunts were orchestrated by oil companies to create negative publicity. They've literally paid actors to pretend being environmental activists, to associate the valid protestors with these ridiculous stunts. So, your grievance in this instance is their plans working perfectly: Your bias against "lefties" (which apparently has lost all meaning) makes you immediate believe their carefully constructed narrative of lies. They keep you angry at the wrong people, while the planet keeps being poisoned.
We live in an age of unprecedented access to information. I urge you to start using it, instead of falling for their dirty tricks.
We live in an age of unprecedented access to information. I urge you to start using it, instead of falling for their dirty tricks.
Azas
Eons, Eras, Periods, Epochs
It’s not hyperfixation — it’s just one example. It’s how I perceive this whole “caring for the planet” thing, when at the same time people are still killing each other. Cognitive dissonance.
I haven’t heard about the “orchestration of such performances” because, honestly, I don’t care enough to follow or analyze these actions. But if they’re being broadcast by major TV stations, I doubt that all of them are just black PR stunts. I simply don’t know.
Yes, I agree — access to information is increasing, and so is its use to manipulate the masses. Yesterday I watched a movie that’s exactly about this topic — Mountainhead (2025). It’s boring, but at the same time it’s f**king scary. The things deranged billionaires could do… the power they have by controlling social media, deepfakes, AI. We’ve entered unprecedented times. Elections are — and will be — even more influenced by social media special operations.
How to contain all of this? God only knows.
I haven’t heard about the “orchestration of such performances” because, honestly, I don’t care enough to follow or analyze these actions. But if they’re being broadcast by major TV stations, I doubt that all of them are just black PR stunts. I simply don’t know.
Yes, I agree — access to information is increasing, and so is its use to manipulate the masses. Yesterday I watched a movie that’s exactly about this topic — Mountainhead (2025). It’s boring, but at the same time it’s f**king scary. The things deranged billionaires could do… the power they have by controlling social media, deepfakes, AI. We’ve entered unprecedented times. Elections are — and will be — even more influenced by social media special operations.
How to contain all of this? God only knows.
____no5
Free Man
Moderate or not we should mourn his loss big time; he was elected by the people against all odds and removed violently and shamelessly by the USA.
One of the saddest moments of the last century and a milestone for the rise of neo-conservatism and Chicago boys. Of course we should mourn, all of us, regardless being left or right.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
Well, as someone coming from a country that didn't have such luck - the US has decided not to act and hasn't shamelessly removed our "elected by the people" (lol, as if) communists, leaving them free to do their revolution and drag my country to Hell for 40 years - I can't be but legitimately envious and wonder why they deserved it and we didn't. So I suppose it is quite plain to see why tears for the Bolshevik are hard to come by.
Pinochet was bad, don't take me wrong, but I'd still take him over what we got.
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Which is what I found frustrating about some of your stances. You have your opinion, but it is entirely based on your feelings while disregarding reality. You are being told to look into stuff more and that your stance (in this particular example) is built on wrong assumptions and your response is "it might be wrong, but it feels right to me".
To make this a bit more constructive: I've told you before, I am a leftist. I haven't thrown paint at museum paintings. I haven't defaced historical monuments. I am against Putin and Russia (Funnily enough I have relatives who are AFD supporters and staunchly pro-Putin). There are thousands upon thousands of people out there just like me. Why do you choose to be angry at people you see on social media, in content that is designed to make you rage at them? Why don't you try to connect with people like me instead, not even to find common ground and agreement, but to simply listen to each other and experience a different perspective? Your anger at "blue haired vegans" and similar caricatures isn't effective; in fact you fall for the tactics of those you actively despise (cyber warfare often waged by Russia). Yes, you have your negative experiences with communism and the left, due to the history of your country, which is valid. But maybe the modern left wing parties in other countries are quite divorced from what your country experienced last century? You understand that just because two different parties might be on the same end of the political spectrum they can still be wildly different to one another, right?
To summarize: Take some time to reflect instead of constantly shooting left.
Azas
Eons, Eras, Periods, Epochs
We clash because, at the core, we’re actually pretty similar—just a bit rough around the edges. I see you as leaning a bit toward the extreme left, a little too progressive for my taste. But overall, if I were German, I’d vote for any reasonable party just to keep the AfD and other lunatics out. So yeah, in that sense, we’d find common ground—for the greater good.
Yeah, maybe I should reflect more—but the same goes for the Democrats in the U.S.*, for example. They need to take a hard look at why people have drifted away from them. Reasonable parties should be willing to analyze themselves and adjust course a bit when needed.
*Oh no, here it comes again—ha ha.
Yeah, maybe I should reflect more—but the same goes for the Democrats in the U.S.*, for example. They need to take a hard look at why people have drifted away from them. Reasonable parties should be willing to analyze themselves and adjust course a bit when needed.
*Oh no, here it comes again—ha ha.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
I think we could actually agree on quite a few things. Probably more in common than things we'd fundamentally disagree with. We'd obviously have differences in the details and would find it a bit more difficult to find a compromise on how to approach these things, but that's politics, isn't it?
No worries, I'm no fan of the Democrats and I criticize them a lot. My criticisms come from a different direction than yours though, that's all. But that's a discussion for another day (and another thread)
____no5
Free Man
Well in your case it was different, the spheres of influence were already decided in Yalta. Yours under USSR, mine under USA. Mine was a bit better, but not by a lot.
Communist party wasn't even legal in Greece up until 1974 and millions of Greek "leftists" had to migrate abroad as in Greece they were not even permitted to work my friend and we almost always had US client governments controlled by US embassy, despite after the WWII the majority of the Greeks were on the left side of the spectrum. Even today the demonstrations end up at US embassy, something remained from those days. There are records for official executions by firing squads upon people's beliefs (i.e., distributing pamphlets against Korean war) up until 1955.
Following our admittance to EU, things got better for a while, until the economic massacre of 2010 -15, the consequences of which will be upon us for the next generation at least.
In Chile, none of that happened. People chose Allende to govern them, not just freely, but despite the huge propaganda against him, people still voted for him. This is an entire different story of a people choosing to walk the socialism and it's a damn pity they were never allowed.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
Just to wit, about the same time frame we got nothing as dignified as firing squads, we got instead:
- our political opponents and dissenters got hanged instead, in the judicial murders learnt from Stalin/the Soviet Union; if possible, they were also forced to read from the script, publicly "admit" everything and denounce themselves, usually by police torture - and those are the famous ones
- the lesser known people were instead put into labour camps, the normal ones if you were lucky, but the unlucky ones were sent for example to Jachymov, to process uranium and work with radioactive dust in the Red Tower of Death, being left in the same clothes for both work and sleep for weeks at end, dying from acute radiation poisoning, I think the average time of survival was about three weeks?
The reasons for being sent to the specific uranium work camps were for example "said something publicly against collectivisation" or "had a sister in Vienna/elsewhere in the West"
- if you weren't famous and couldn't work, then it was the ol' oubliette, people being put in prison. The phenomenalist philosopher Patočka was tortured to death while in prison (drenching an old man with cold water in the middle of January kinda does that), the priests (the most famous are Toufar, Drbola and Bula, but there were others) were often tortured even before trial, a lot of fun all around. But there were "lighter" moments as well - while they were imprisoning Catholics merely for their beliefs, including the frail old poet Zahradníček, he at least was allowed to attend the funeral of his wife and daughters, who got poisoned by mushrooms (we are a mushroom-eating nation, it really got big when it was one of the sources of food that were available during this exact regime, when food was scarce because of central planning)
But the most haunting cases are others, I honestly don't know what's worse, whether the accounts of children being put into prison with the adults for several weeks, often directly by the police, without any process - the writer Sabach wrote a grotesque pseudo-memoir titled Citizen Card, how there was a time when you should have had your ID card with you even when you were taking out the rubbish - but there are soul-scarring stories of pregnant women having been imprisoned for political reasons, giving birth while in prison and listening through the wall as the infant baby cried its last cries. Not on a regular basis, thankfully, but even one case is one too many in this case.
(since you talk about being permitted to work, well, you were permitted to work according to how pro-regime you were, me being a Catholic intellectual would most likely mean the relatively prestigious mine shaft if I was lucky, and digging ditches at construction sites in the rain if I was not, if I avoided prison in the first place)
Instead of descending into another left v right argument, perhaps we could get back to the original issue which was how Europe deals with Putin.
Azas - I understand again how strongly you feel about other countries not doing enough for Ukraine to rushing to defend Russia's neighbours. I'd hoped some of the discussions a couple of months back indicated that some European countries were seriously considering their options in the absence of America (or rather Trump indicating he wants to keep Putin as a buddy).
But we're left with the same old problem. Putin has a LOT of nukes on his side and is probably unhinged enough to use them. Plus you'd need to guarantee that most of Europe would work together in a co-ordinated way and that's almost certainly not going to happen.
Azas - I understand again how strongly you feel about other countries not doing enough for Ukraine to rushing to defend Russia's neighbours. I'd hoped some of the discussions a couple of months back indicated that some European countries were seriously considering their options in the absence of America (or rather Trump indicating he wants to keep Putin as a buddy).
But we're left with the same old problem. Putin has a LOT of nukes on his side and is probably unhinged enough to use them. Plus you'd need to guarantee that most of Europe would work together in a co-ordinated way and that's almost certainly not going to happen.