European Politics

Democracy means living with the fact that there are people who have contrary opinions and opinions that you think are dreadfully wrong. The democratic way of putting up with that is voicing your opinion on their opinions.
 
Forostar said:
What does it matter? That depends on (what happened with) the individual. What matters to an individual can be influenced by a combination of indoctrination and what else happened in their (social) life experience. It can also be influenced by hatespeech.
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I meant specifically that someone may be unaware that someone insults other religions too; they see their religion/beliefs insulted/ridiculed, & that's all that matters to them. I just think that's a bit of a blind-alley side-discussion, & isn't that relevant.
Forostar said:
In Europe several imams have been thrown out of the country because they incite hate. In the US they say whatever they want, and individuals can belief they'd do the right thing if they'd bomb the Twin Towers.
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In the US they just find other reasons to jail them, let's be honest.
Perun said:
I prefer 100% freedom to 100% safety.
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Yip, have to agree. After the terrorists attacks at Glasgow airport, nothing really changed in Scotland. I think people just accept that 100% safety isn't possible. And, furthermore, people are sceptical that sacrifising more freedom(s) is actually likely to deliver greater safety anyway. I'm not sure what the majority would think if the choice was a real one though i.e. you can have 99-100% safety; here is what it will cost you in personal freedom(s).
 
Perun said:
Democracy means living with the fact that there are people who have contrary opinions and opinions that you think are dreadfully wrong. The democratic way of putting up with that is voicing your opinion on their opinions.
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Very true, the states that had a forced uniformity of opinion are the ones best avoided (see earlier 20th Century). I get that @Forostar is arguing from a place of wanting to do good, but I think it is the wrong solution.
 
Forostar said:
I already wondered why Bearfan was silent on this. Free speech eh?
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He just said it 2 minutes ago ... pick a case and we can discuss it. I do not know of any specifically, though I would not be shocked if it happened post 9/11 and it would be wrong if it did. Which would show how dangerous what you support is. As evidenced by 50+ people being arrested in France that had nothing to do with the attacks.
 
Forostar said:
But doesn't that border on speech?
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There is not just fighting. Terrorism is a symptom of something else.

Terrorist breeding grounds within Europe are unemployment, poverty, active racism (e.g. not employing Arabs), insecurity (crime, social insecurity) and the likes. If you fight those, you fight terrorism.
 
bearfan said:
He just said it 2 minutes ago ... pick a case and we can discuss it. I do not know of any specifically, though I would not be shocked if it happened post 9/11 and it would be wrong if it did. Which would show how dangerous what you support is. As evidenced by 50+ people being arrested in France that had nothing to do with the attacks.
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At least they don't get the death penalty. ;)
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Yeh, in particular I was referring to Abu Hamza al-Masri:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30754959
This guy preached hate on the streets in the UK for over a decade & we didn't stop him doing this. I haven't look in detail at the evidence the US brought against him though.
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I believe several other imams were kicked out.
 
Perun said:
Terrorist breeding grounds within Europe are unemployment, poverty, active racism (e.g. not employing Arabs), insecurity (crime, social insecurity) and the likes. If you fight those, you fight terrorism.
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Can't disagree with all of this. But I believe there is more. It is also fundamentalism within religion. Indoctrination.
 
What kind of people are susceptible for indoctrination? Religious fundamentalism, as has been shown by sociologists for decades now, is something that doesn't just exist. It flourishes because it gives people something they lack in life. People join fundamentalist groups because they lead terrible lives that they want to escape from.
 
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