Eco-Fascism?

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I was on a seminar last week about ecological farming and nutrition. As part of the whole concept, they only served us ecological food and no meat. Most of the organizers were vegetarians, so there was hardly any resistance against that plan in the organizing team.
I was slightly upset about this, but I didn't personally mind having a week of vegetarian diet (even though now I mind, because the people clearly couldn't cook).
However, when I told my mum on the phone, she flipped out, telling me to tell them that Hitler wanted to do stuff like this as well and talking about eco-fascism and stuff like that. I was very surprised because my mum is always a very rational person and never says unconsidered things. So now I wonder: Is this ecology gone too far? Does such a thing as eco-fascism really exist? Anybody got an opinion?
 
I don't know about Germany, but the "Greens" are pretty strong and influential here in the good old Confederatio Helvetica.

Most of the traffic jams here are attributed to those eco-integrists who oppose the enlargement of certain roads or tunnels, or the construction of new ones. They claim that new or larger roads will increase the traffic, which is completely preposterous, as it would simply loosen the traffic. On the other hand, they are in favour of a brand new railway system that makes a gain of 7 minutes on the Geneva-Zurich stretch (immense stupidity that cost millions and isn't even justified -- what are 7 minutes on a 250Km stretch?). Still the people have to suffer because of them.

Even worse: a species of poisonous snakes that had deserted the area long ago was re-introduced a few years ago in Wallis (South of Switzerland) without any kind of warning. As a result, many unaware hikers were bitten and taken to hospital in life-threatening conditions (I don't know if anyone died, but you get the picture). What's next? The re-introduction of the wild brown bear?

The consumers have still a choice, but "bio" (organic) food is more and more widespread. It's twice as expensive as the usual stuff and there's no evidence that it's any healthier, but we still get swamped with this shit courtesy of the Greens.

Can we actually talk of "eco-fascism"? I don't know, but if things carry on like this, it might very well be the case pretty soon.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Feb 16 2005, 10:36 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Feb 16 2005, 10:36 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't know about Germany, but the "Greens" are pretty strong and influential here in the good old Confederatio Helvetica.

Most of the traffic jams here are attributed to those eco-integrists who oppose the enlargement of certain roads or tunnels, or the construction of new ones. They claim that new or larger roads will increase the traffic, which is completely preposterous, as it would simply loosen the traffic. On the other hand, they are in favour of a brand new railway system that makes a gain of 7 minutes on the Geneva-Zurich stretch (immense stupidity that cost millions and isn't even justified -- what are 7 minutes on a 250Km stretch?). Still the people have to suffer because of them.

Even worse: a species of poisonous snakes that had deserted the area long ago was re-introduced a few years ago in Wallis (South of Switzerland) without any kind of warning. As a result, many unaware hikers were bitten and taken to hospital in life-threatening conditions (I don't know if anyone died, but you get the picture). What's next? The re-introduction of the wild brown bear?

The consumers have still a choice, but "bio" (organic) food is more and more widespread. It's twice as expensive as the usual stuff and there's no evidence that it's any healthier, but we still get swamped with this shit courtesy of the Greens.

Can we actually talk of "eco-fascism"? I don't know, but if things carry on like this, it might very well be the case pretty soon.
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Well, the Greens are part of the governing coalition in Germany, but I don't consider them much of an ecological party anymore.
The re-introduction of extincted species is nothing bad by itself, IMHO, as there are many cases in which the ecological system has suffered because of their extinction. But you're right, the population should be properly informed.
I personally share the opinion that we humans are part of the ecological system and have no right to unbalance or destroy it. The human race does not have the right to extinct a species just because it bugs it. That would be the same as killing another person just because he eats the same amount of food as you do, but you feel you have deserved the his share as well, for whatever reason.
If I could afford it, I would exclusively buy biological food. Not because I think it is healthier for me (which I don't really care about), but because I neither want to support the torture of animals (I eat meat), nor genetic manipulation with unforeseen consequences for nature and mankind (I know you will disagree with me on this point, Mav [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]).
Can't argue anymore now because I have to work...
 
Luckilly, here, we don't have such a huge Green movement. A lot of what is being pushed in school is something like responsible environmentalism. I'm afraid I don't have too much to say, but I will ask the Duke to come in and comment...I believe he enjoys environmental history.
 
Well, I do believe eco-freaks are going a little to far, and I especially hate PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), because they treat animals better than they treat people. The vegetarians biggest arguement for not eating meat is "you can get protein elsewhere (mainly soy)" and that is bullshit. One of the first things I learned in the only chemistry class I took is that the human brain (and body) at this point of our evolution needs protein. Not just protien, but protien from meat, not plants because they are different. The way it was explained to me is that meat contains protien "A" and plants (like soy) contain protien "B" and it is not broken down the same way and our bodies don't take full advantage of it. Wether it is true or not I don't know but made a whole lot of sense to me.

As far as bio foods go, I do think it is outrageous that it is more expensive and personally I think it is a scam getting people to think they are eating "healthier" when they are just milking them for every penny. However, personal opinion aside my girlfriend recently changed her entire diet in favor of a bio food diet (for health reasons) and i must say it is doing wonders for her. Not ony is her system responding positively but she is in a better mood and getting better every day.
 
Well, to me, any sort of movement that rubs it's idelas on your nose and drags you into it subconciously (by marketing) or rather aggresively is a form of fascism. The subtle, subconcious (and therefore perfidious) form is much more present these days - we are being mentally manipulated by Greens and the likes.

To have an ecological concience is a wondeful thing, but the way to "wake it up"in people is to educate them (you know, stuff like "wash your feet and armpits more often, so we can breathe" ;-)) and not trying to draw them into vegetarianism or anything (my ex was a vegan so I know what I'm talking about [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ).

It must be up to everyone to decide on their own which path they will take.
 
Onhell, I suppose that you were referring to some aminoacids that can only be found in animal proteins and that are essential to a normal human diet. [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

If Nature had intended humans not to eat any other animal species, She would have made us vegetarians from the word go. I agree.

I also despise those animal activists who probably beat up their wives and kids, but worship the spiders in their attics (it's an extreme example, and maybe not true, but it sums up what I think of them). They are also completely closed -- for most of them -- to discussions about meat-eating or why animal testing is a "necessary evil", so I'd rather not say much more here...
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Feb 16 2005, 04:39 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Feb 16 2005, 04:39 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, I do believe eco-freaks are going a little to far, and I especially hate PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), because they treat animals better than they treat people. The vegetarians biggest arguement for not eating meat is "you can get protein elsewhere (mainly soy)" and that is bullshit. One of the first things I learned in the only chemistry class I took is that the human brain (and body) at this point of our evolution needs protein. Not just protien, but protien from meat, not plants because they are different. The way it was explained to me is that meat contains protien "A" and plants (like soy) contain protien "B" and it is not broken down the same way and our bodies don't take full advantage of it. Wether it is true or not I don't know but made a whole lot of sense to me.
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It is true. And I'm also sick of that crap argument. Meat contains ingrediens that no other food contains, and that are vital for us humans.

And PETA activists...tell you what, if they see a starving baby and a starving puppy out in the cold, on the pavement, they'd feed the puppy and leave!
 
2 quick points:

1. Meat proteins are "better" (more useful) for the body than vegetable ones, but in no way neccesary. As long as you get a fairly varied diet (eat something besides soy to get your protein and get some of the "good" oils like sunflower and possibly some fish, etc., etc.), your body will form all the proteins it needs itself. They can even be made from carbohydrates (or was that the other way around? [!--emo&:huh:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/huh.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'huh.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ).
Vegetarians, and vegans in particular, are however, a lot more likely to suffer from malnutrition than "the rest of us", as it's actually pretty hard to get the proteins you need without careful observation of your diet when you're not eating meat.

2. Early studies actually show organic food to be healthier than "regular" food. groups of rats were given completely identical diets, except some of them ate organic food. Those rats showed improved immune systems, a raised level of vitamin E in the blood, lowered fat and seemed calmer.

source: [a href=\'http://www.foejo.dk/enyt2/enyt/feb05/sundhed.html\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.foejo.dk/enyt2/enyt/feb05/sundhed.html[/a] (in Danish). I haven't been able to find the article in English, but I'll be sure to post it if I do.
 
Like I said, please don't mix up the proteins and the aminoacids (their building blocks). I don't want to start a biology lecture here, but I like when things are clear [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Well, environmentalism was more or less kidnapped by Green parties in many countries.

These movements were very much needed when they started to grow strong, especially in the seventies. But, as time passed, they became parties and had to accomplish a change of form and incorporate many other aspect of society into their programs.

Most of these groups, being activists in the beginning, became close to socialist or social-democrat parties, leading to the idea that the environment was a prerogative of the left.

It's kind of sad, for I think one can be prone to protect the environment without having to drift towards a unique vision of society.

Anyway, the result of this transformation has left some activist questionning if the green parties were really activist anymore and continued their combat. Only that now, to be heard, they had to be more and more aggressive and more and more marginal.

Now that the 'bio' food combat is somewhat won, the next one has to be more marginal. Engineered food and meat are the logic targets.

And it's very hard to counter their arguments in a mannered way (for instance, that 'bio' food has few advantages in terms of nutrition -a recent Nature article proved it once more-), for radical activists know no compromise.

Cheers
 
My two cents on this debate:

Eating meat is natural. It is part of a green and healthy diet.
Humans evolved as omnivores. Which means our species CAN and MUST consume both meat and plants to surrvive. Meat contains 'good' protien, as well as certain enzymes that are necessary for a healthy immune system. You cannot be a healthy person without some meat in your diet. Soy, beans, and other plant-based sources of protien can only do so much for you. I've read about 20 different studies that make this conclusion.

That being said, we eat far too much meat than we need to in the West, and we don't treat the animals humanely in most cases (especially the so-called 'factory farms' in the mid-western USA)


As far as environmentalist parties pushing one-issue agendas in government, I think anyone silly enough to vote for such a party gets what they deserve. Just kidding.

One-issue parties are a necessary evil in parliamentary systems (the Greens in Europe, the NDP in Canada, Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland, even.) In many cases, their cause is a good one and wouldn't be addressed if there weren't around to push it. When voters start listening to only that single issue, however, and vote these yahoos into office in large numbers, it's dangerous for the other 99% of the issues governments need to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an environmentalist. I just think knee-jerk solutions to our problems such as those proposed by Enviro. groups are f**king useless and will likely end up screwing the planet up more. We need to take a step back and come up with long-term solutions to our planet's woes.



President Bush is helping to ensure a healthy green planet. Discuss.


/flame on
 
Actually what I want to know is if you still know the titles/website/journal of those 20 reports you mentioned... 5 will do, I want to be well informed as well [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Feb 17 2005, 02:58 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Feb 17 2005, 02:58 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Actually what I want to know is if you still know the titles/website/journal of those 20 reports you mentioned... 5 will do, I want to be well informed as well [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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Damn near everything I read can be accessed at www.jstor.org

search the nutrition and biology archives for the keywords "vegetarian" "human" "diet"


all will then be revealed
 
Onhell, try getting onto Jstor from your college. You need to pay to access it normally!
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Feb 17 2005, 06:27 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Feb 17 2005, 06:27 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]My two cents on this debate:

Eating meat is natural.
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if you do like animals (not only your cat/dog) youre not eating meat or youre trying to
 
[!--QuoteBegin-agdabavipain+Feb 17 2005, 09:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(agdabavipain @ Feb 17 2005, 09:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]if you do like animals (not only your cat/dog) youre not eating meat or youre trying to
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It's not a matter of liking or hating animals, it is about NATURE and SURVIVAL. you think Pandas hate or like Bamboo and that is why they eat it? in fact because they like it they eat it (i.e it taste good). Plus Cats and Dogs are eaten in several asian countries along with bears, monkeys and elephants to name just a few.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-agdabavipain+Feb 17 2005, 06:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(agdabavipain @ Feb 17 2005, 06:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]if you do like animals (not only your cat/dog) youre not eating meat or youre trying to
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I have no fucking clue what that sentence is supposed to mean. From what I can comprehend, your arguement goins like this:

If I like animals which are not my dog and cat, then I am either not eating meat OR I am trying to eat meat.

When you dangle your modifiers, your meaning becomes unclear. And like Onhell said, it has absolutely nothing to do with liking animals or not. There is no way a human being can live healthily without meat in their diet. None. Nada. Nil. Bugger all. Zilch. Get it?

If I stop eating meat because animals are living things just like me, shouldn't I stop eating plants too? Plants are alive. They may not be conscious, but they're still living organisms. It's a fact of nature than organisms consume each other for surrvival.

It's people with your logic that want to liberalize humanity out of existence.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-agdabavipain+Feb 17 2005, 09:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(agdabavipain @ Feb 17 2005, 09:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]if you do like animals (not only your cat/dog) youre not eating meat or youre trying to
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I spent a while on this sentence, trying to comprehend what it means. I think I got its meaning, and if my interpretation is correct, I agree with Iron Duke.
If I like animals, I wouldn't be eating them? Well, I'll tell you a story then.
A friend of mine once fell headfirst into a dead rabbit. A really disgusting thing, the rabbit was all open and she had her face in the midst of all the blood and organs and everything. Meat disgusted her from that point on, and she became a vegetarian.
She became very ill, and her doctor told her that she is suffering from the lack of substances that are included with meat, and the only way she can get healthy again is by returning meat to her diet.

I'm getting really fed up with these vegetarians who keep telling me that eating meat is a barbaric thing and that the human race is not dependant of it. I like animals, yet I eat them. If I could afford it, I would only eat animals that lived under good and ecological circumstances, but I would still eat meat. I believe in animal rights, but going so far as to forbid eating of animals is plain ridiculous. You'd have to forbid animals to eat animals as well (there are, btw, some people who actually feed their pets (dogs, cats etc) vegetarian food- I guess they are surprised at the fact that these animals are unhealthy and die pretty soon).
I like fruits too, I think they have pretty colours and smell good. Should I stop eating them too?
 
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