Bruce's voice straining

LooseCannon said:
My biggest problem with Bruce doing Maiden stuff solo was the drumming, always.
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Really? Even David Ingraham? The Tattooed Millionaire and Skunkworks era bands, sure, they weren't much of musicians, but the AoB and CW band was pretty awesome!
 
Did he tour with them live? The live stuff is what I mean, like from the AoB tour - never felt "right".
 
Moonchild33 said:
I love Kiske, but his tone isn't all that unique.
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But he did it first, really, at the age of 17 when he joined Helloween (and previously in his first band, Ill Prophecy).. and because he's been saving his voice for 17 years, he can still hit those extremely high notes clearly and without straining.

Yes, there was hair metal doing screams, but listen to Keeper of the Seven Keys parts 1 and 2, and you'll see that he was the first and greatest.
 
LooseCannon said:
My biggest problem with Bruce doing Maiden stuff solo was the drumming, always.
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I agree. I have this problem with whole Bruce's solo discography. He always had great guitarists (Gers, Z, Smith), but I always wanted him to have a drummer that plays double bass. I was excited when I heard that Tyranny Of Souls' drummer plays double bass, but it was used for like 15 seconds on the whole album. If Bruce ever records a new solo album, I wish he gets famous drummer, like Richard Christy or Dave Lombardo, to drum on the album. I don't have this double-bass-problem with Maiden, because Nicko is really the best single pedal drummer in the world.
 
Snoopz12345 said:
But he did it first, really, at the age of 17 when he joined Helloween (and previously in his first band, Ill Prophecy).. and because he's been saving his voice for 17 years, he can still hit those extremely high notes clearly and without straining.

Yes, there was hair metal doing screams, but listen to Keeper of the Seven Keys parts 1 and 2, and you'll see that he was the first and greatest.
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Kiske's fantastic. I especially love his voice when he's singing ballads.
 
And he's picking up where he left off 17 years ago with his new band, Unisonic.  The live recordings that people have done so far are amazing.

I saw him with Helloween on the Keepers II tour in the US.. they blew Anthrax off the stage with a 6 song set.
 
To get this somewhat back on track, i appreciate all the replies that have given me some insight into Bruce's voice.  He's the vocal god as far as i'm concerned.
 
Yax, good explanations.  I took a bunch of vocal classes at Berklee (was there for guitar) in the hopes of developing a decent voice but it never happened.  I just sucked, and I still do at singing.  I could grasp the concepts of vocal technique, but I couldn't execute them for the life of me, it's really fucking hard. :)  

The only other thing of use I can add is that the vocal chords atrophy as you get older which has a correlation to singing.  And of course your voice continues to deepen and you lose a bit of range.  Though male opera and jazz vocalists are often in their primes in their early 50's, but I have no clue if that carries over to Bruce and his style.  Also the amount of shows the guy did in a short period of time in 1980's most likely took a toll as well.  It's something ridiculous like 500+ shows in 8 years.  I don't know enough about vocals to know for sure, but I had an instructor tell me that the human voice just isn't able to take that type of beating without some adverse effects.  Yax, can you comment on if that has any validity?

He's still my favorite singer, and I think he sounds great on TFF.  I'm a huge Kiske fan too.  Also liked Andre Matos a lot when he was in Angra.
 
As a singer myself, Bruce's vocal technique is damn SOLID! The guy knows what he's doing, how to do, and how to handle his voice. He is not straining at all, it just sounds that way, but he's not. His support is spot-on and he's maintaining throughout his parts. His voice just got thicker that's all... so he's stretching the chords a bit more... but he's not putting risky pressure on them, he's just stretching them way more because he's a lot older now, and his voice just got a little deeper. But his technique is excellent. Bruce is also a belter. He is the KING of belting, and that's his style. So belting takes a lot of support and it's normal that he sounds the way he does, especially nowadays. He's the essential metal frontman, as a singer, as a showman, Bruce is the fucking man!
Yax said:
Bruce stays in head voice I think, although he uses his jaw etc to make it resonate differently. He sometimes uses falsetto though like in Aces high etc.
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You made really good points in your posts! But Bruce does not use his jaw necessarily to make it resonate. He just places the sound in different spots. In the hard palate, or in the soft palate. He just lowers the jaw to intensify the resonance, but the jaw position doesn't really create the resonance, placement does.  :)
Also, I think that for the most part, Bruce sings in full voice. He's got a fantastic range, he's definitely in full voice.. I've rarely heard him sing in falsetto.
 
LooseCannon said:
My biggest problem with Bruce doing Maiden stuff solo was the drumming, always.
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Agreed.
In his own songs drums are just nothing special, I wouldn't say anything positive but anything negative either.But in Maiden songs the difference is really obvious, the drummer tries a different approach which either simplifies the song or just makes it sound inferior.There's only one Nicko Mcbrain.  :D


Twarkle said:
  Also liked Andre Matos a lot when he was in Angra.
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Andre Matos is a monster!!!
He's great with Angra, great on his own, great on the covers he does.  :edmetal:
 
Stan said:
As a singer myself, Bruce's vocal technique is damn SOLID! The guy knows what he's doing, how to do, and how to handle his voice. He is not straining at all, it just sounds that way, but he's not. His support is spot-on and he's maintaining throughout his parts. His voice just got thicker that's all... so he's stretching the chords a bit more... but he's not putting risky pressure on them, he's just stretching them way more because he's a lot older now, and his voice just got a little deeper. But his technique is excellent.
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Stretching - Now that's a better word. I never meant to imply that he was damaging his voice.

Stan said:
You made really good points in your posts! But Bruce does not use his jaw necessarily to make it resonate. He just places the sound in different spots. In the hard palate, or in the soft palate. He just lowers the jaw to intensify the resonance, but the jaw position doesn't really create the resonance, placement does.  :)
Also, I think that for the most part, Bruce sings in full voice. He's got a fantastic range, he's definitely in full voice.. I've rarely heard him sing in falsetto.
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That sounds pretty logical actually - I experimented with that for a minute and you're right. You're a real singer anyway! Thanks for the heads up.  :D

Twarkle said:
Yax, good explanations.  I took a bunch of vocal classes at Berklee (was there for guitar) in the hopes of developing a decent voice but it never happened.  I just sucked, and I still do at singing.  I could grasp the concepts of vocal technique, but I couldn't execute them for the life of me, it's really fucking hard. :)  

The only other thing of use I can add is that the vocal chords atrophy as you get older which has a correlation to singing.  And of course your voice continues to deepen and you lose a bit of range.  Though male opera and jazz vocalists are often in their primes in their early 50's, but I have no clue if that carries over to Bruce and his style.  Also the amount of shows the guy did in a short period of time in 1980's most likely took a toll as well.  It's something ridiculous like 500+ shows in 8 years.  I don't know enough about vocals to know for sure, but I had an instructor tell me that the human voice just isn't able to take that type of beating without some adverse effects.  Yax, can you comment on if that has any validity?

He's still my favorite singer, and I think he sounds great on TFF.  I'm a huge Kiske fan too.  Also liked Andre Matos a lot when he was in Angra.
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I think it has a lot of importance how you're singing - For instance, when you're at a gig watching a band you love perform you sing along and scream and stuff, yes? Afterwards your voice will be sour and you can't g overy high without it cracking. You've also lost your falsetto register - Falsetto is the first to go with age as well as straining - although with a few days rest you're pretty much back to normal aside from coughing a bit when reaching a fairly high note.

This is how you damage your voice and what damages most easily is the upper register which will also be lowered with age. Your upper register is fragile and your body's ability to recouperate will lessen with age - Instead of reaching all notes no problem at age 25 you might only be able to do that every third night at 57 and every now and then your body might behave like you're 20 again and you'll sound incredible (Halford being an example here, he can range nowadays from sounding good live to horrible to fantastic - It just depends on his day form. He rarely sounds fantastic anymore though but there are a few occassions).

So. Let's pretend I can sing and let's pretend I'm famous. I can either do it like Halford, try for these incredible screams etc which are quite hard (talking pre 2002 Halford) or I can sing easier stuff which I can sing no problem when I'm old or having a bad day. If I do the second option it will go easier on my voice and I'm in less risk of harming it and I will sound pretty much the same when I am 60. Singing like Bruce isn't easy (I wouldn't know that by experience though!) and singing the way he does when you have a cold etc might harm your voice (actually, singing anything where you have to stretch a bit when sick might harm your voice - It's easier to hurt your voice when you're sick and trying to sing like when you're not). I think what the instructor might have meant it's easy to slip when you're not in perfect shape and harm your voice when singing like Bruce 500 show in a couple of years - I mean even when you're 25 you will have a few bad nights and you might end up hurting your voice if you're trying to sing full ability when you have a cold or something.

However, now that we have a real singer here, Stan, he might better answer your question.  :P
 
Yax said:
Stretching - Now that's a better word. I never meant to imply that he was damaging his voice.
That sounds pretty logical actually - I experimented with that for a minute and you're right. You're a real singer anyway! Thanks for the heads up.  :D
I think it has a lot of importance how you're singing - For instance, when you're at a gig watching a band you love perform you sing along and scream and stuff, yes? Afterwards your voice will be sour and you can't g overy high without it cracking. You've also lost your falsetto register - Falsetto is the first to go with age as well as straining - although with a few days rest you're pretty much back to normal aside from coughing a bit when reaching a fairly high note.

This is how you damage your voice and what damages most easily is the upper register which will also be lowered with age. Your upper register is fragile and your body's ability to recouperate will lessen with age - Instead of reaching all notes no problem at age 25 you might only be able to do that every third night at 57 and every now and then your body might behave like you're 20 again and you'll sound incredible (Halford being an example here, he can range nowadays from sounding good live to horrible to fantastic - It just depends on his day form. He rarely sounds fantastic anymore though but there are a few occassions).

So. Let's pretend I can sing and let's pretend I'm famous. I can either do it like Halford, try for these incredible screams etc which are quite hard (talking pre 2002 Halford) or I can sing easier stuff which I can sing no problem when I'm old or having a bad day. If I do the second option it will go easier on my voice and I'm in less risk of harming it and I will sound pretty much the same when I am 60. Singing like Bruce isn't easy (I wouldn't know that by experience though!) and singing the way he does when you have a cold etc might harm your voice (actually, singing anything where you have to stretch a bit when sick might harm your voice - It's easier to hurt your voice when you're sick and trying to sing like when you're not). I think what the instructor might have meant it's easy to slip when you're not in perfect shape and harm your voice when singing like Bruce 500 show in a couple of years - I mean even when you're 25 you will have a few bad nights and you might end up hurting your voice if you're trying to sing full ability when you have a cold or something.

However, now that we have a real singer here, Stan, he might better answer your question.  :P
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The thing is, a lot of singers don't take care of themselves. Even Bruce and Halford! Halford never warms-up, and I heard he eats potato chips and Sprite before a show, lol. Bruce never warms-up either unless his voice really sounds tired or like shit,  basically. But singers also often drink when they're on the road, and that affects their voice. If they continue doing stuff like that, drinking, smoking, they will lose their range and the vocal quality they're known to have. Look at a guy like Chris Cornell, this guy was absolutely incredible back in the days. But what did he do? He took drugs and became an alcoholic. And now look at him. With each song, he sounds like he's about to suffer a stroke. Embarrassing.

Even when you're older, you can still hit those high notes you did 20 years ago. The voice just becomes a little deeper due to age and it requires you to stretch the chords a bit more. If you heard the new song, Talisman, in the chorus Bruce hits the highest note I've heard him sing since the reunion! Is he straining? No! His voice is just thicker.

Also, another reason why singers, or we, when we attend a concert lose our voices is because we are not supporting them correctly. Of course, non-singers don't know what the hell that even means. But support goes hand in hand with placement. Basically, support involves you trying to get the sound out of the throat and make it sound as if your voice is being created elsewhere... and that's in the palate. We don't know this, and that is why we tend to lose our voices when we sing along at shows, and we are singing louder than necessary.

Also, Bruce and Halford don't even practice singing in their personal time, which is a shame. I know that  Soundgarden just re-united, which is great, but Cornell better find the best vocal teacher out there and put his ass to work. I don't wanna hear a drunken bored sounding Cornell anymore.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I answered any of your questions, guys, but feel free to ask anything.  :bigsmile:
 
Twarkle said:
He's still my favorite singer, and I think he sounds great on TFF.  I'm a huge Kiske fan too.  Also liked Andre Matos a lot when he was in Angra.
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I used to like Matos a lot, specially in Shaman (though obviously what he did in Angra was fantastic.) I say "used to," because his replacement, Edu Falaschi is incredible. MUCH better singer than Matos. Matos falls under the "classic" power metal singer that belts out notes like a castrated choir boy from Vienna a la Kiske/Kotipelto. But Edu has a wider range. He can hit the high notes effortlessly while also singer "deeper" with no problem. "Running Alone" on Rebirth and the stuff on Temple of Shadows is just impressive. Angra is just an amazing band regardless of line-up.
 
Stan said:
Even when you're older, you can still hit those high notes you did 20 years ago. The voice just becomes a little deeper due to age and it requires you to stretch the chords a bit more. If you heard the new song, Talisman, in the chorus Bruce hits the highest note I've heard him sing since the reunion! Is he straining? No! His voice is just thicker.
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Really? I recall Ian Gillan saying he can't sing Child in Time anymore because his throat muscles can no longer pull it off as well as Halford saying he can't go as high as when he was younger (he was talking about the G#5 in Run of the Mill - Though the highest I've heard him go is a B5).

Also seeing as you mostly added stuff, I didn't say too much stupid shit, right?  :bigsmile:

Stan said:
Also, another reason why singers, or we, when we attend a concert lose our voices is because we are not supporting them correctly. Of course, non-singers don't know what the hell that even means. But support goes hand in hand with placement. Basically, support involves you trying to get the sound out of the throat and make it sound as if your voice is being created elsewhere... and that's in the palate. We don't know this, and that is why we tend to lose our voices when we sing along at shows, and we are singing louder than necessary.
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Thanks for explaining that to me!
 
Yax said:
Really? I recall Ian Gillan saying he can't sing Child in Time anymore because his throat muscles can no longer pull it off as well as Halford saying he can't go as high as when he was younger (he was talking about the G#5 in Run of the Mill - Though the highest I've heard him go is a B5).

Also seeing as you mostly added stuff, I didn't say too much stupid shit, right?  :bigsmile:
Thanks for explaining that to me!
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The screaming stuff on Child in Time, well, maybe that's an exception, lol. It's really intense and requires a lot of support... and those are very high notes. Maybe Gillan just can't do it anymore because he hasn't sung songs like that for like 25 years already, lol and now he's just too old to exercise that amount of energy. Who knows. Gillan was also an alcoholic :)
 
This is an interesting discussion. Is there a way to practice good vocal support on your own?

And just to clarify something - falsetto is what Steven Tyler uses a lot, right? If it is, I find it hard to compare it to the way Brucie screams on Wratchild and NotB today. But that's just 'cos I'm utterly stupid when it comes to the art of singing. Maybe someone can clarify?
 
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