Brighter Than A Thousand Suns

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How good is Brighter Than A Thousand Suns on a scale of 1-10?


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These Colours Don

CosmicEddie, as has been stated earlier, the Germans (and indeed the British and Russians) were working on the same thing. Would you prefer the Germans had beaten us?

Would you truly prefer that they had refused to aid the U.S. and allow the Russians to beat us to the punch? I can assure you, Josef Stalin would not have been as restrained as we were with the bomb.

Go ahead and think about it for a moment... Envision a world in which a man who was responsible for more death and misery than Adolph Hitler was the first, and probably only, to gain the knowledge of atomic weaponry.

I assure you, if Stalin had been first, Japan would have lost far, far more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And so would the rest of the world.

We have indeed sinned, but our sins pale in comparison to what would have been had we not.
 
These Colours Don

Rocinante said:
CosmicEddie, as has been stated earlier, the Germans (and indeed the British and Russians) were working on the same thing. Would you prefer the Germans had beaten us?

Would you truly prefer that they had refused to aid the U.S. and allow the Russians to beat us to the punch? I can assure you, Josef Stalin would not have been as restrained as we were with the bomb.

Go ahead and think about it for a moment... Envision a world in which a man who was responsible for more death and misery than Adolph Hitler was the first, and probably only, to gain the knowledge of atomic weaponry.

I assure you, if Stalin had been first, Japan would have lost far, far more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And so would the rest of the world.

We have indeed sinned, but our sins pale in comparison to what would have been had we not.

Why don't you apply for a job as a prophet?

It doesn't matter who was or would have been the first nation to build the bomb. The ones that were late have it now anyway. What I mean to say is that now matter who used the disastrous thing first, it still remains one of mankind's biggest mistakes.
 
These Colours Don

I did apply for a job as a prophet once, but they had just hired someone... Just my luck, eh?
 
These Colours Don

Cosmiceddie said:
What I mean to say is that now matter who used the disastrous thing first, it still remains one of mankind's biggest mistakes.
I disagree, but am interested in hearing your arguments.
 
These Colours Don

You disagree...

...so you consider building the bomb to be one of mankind's most glorious efforts, do you?

You want arguments? - there's a feeling deep inside of me I just can't get away...I think I'd call it common sense, whether it's faulty or not is something I leave to you to judge.
 
These Colours Don

I do not recall LooseCannon referring to 'the bomb' as one of mankind's glorious triumphs.

I believe it is worth noting that simple clubs have killed far more people than thermonuclear weaponry ever have. Does that make a club a more disgusting creation than 'the bomb'? On the whole, virtually any weapon you can think of from daggers to firearms have killed far more people than the two bombs ever did. And oddly enough, nukes have only ever been used twice offensively. Compared to the blood-washed history of the humble sword, I'd say 'the bomb' is a fairly piss-poor weapon judging by simple body count.

Is it the fact that enough nukes used together can kill everyone? Well... Enough clubs used together can accomplish the same task. I wonder if the inventor of the club will burn in a lower pit of hell than the inventors of 'the bomb'? Certainly the inventor of the club has been responsible for many times more misery and death over the millennia.

Just a few thoughts to ponder.
 
These Colours Don

Wars took place before and after the building of the bomb, and there will always be war. It's good that man have used the bomb only twice to kill people so far and I hope that man isn't stupid enough to use it ever again, but man does seem stupid enough to continue creating new methods of destruction.
 
These Colours Don

Rocinante said:
I do not recall LooseCannon referring to 'the bomb' as one of mankind's glorious triumphs.

I believe it is worth noting that simple clubs have killed far more people than thermonuclear weaponry ever have. Does that make a club a more disgusting creation than 'the bomb'? On the whole, virtually any weapon you can think of from daggers to firearms have killed far more people than the two bombs ever did. And oddly enough, nukes have only ever been used twice offensively. Compared to the blood-washed history of the humble sword, I'd say 'the bomb' is a fairly piss-poor weapon judging by simple body count.

Is it the fact that enough nukes used together can kill everyone? Well... Enough clubs used together can accomplish the same task. I wonder if the inventor of the club will burn in a lower pit of hell than the inventors of 'the bomb'? Certainly the inventor of the club has been responsible for many times more misery and death over the millennia.

Just a few thoughts to ponder.

If 'the bomb' was used for the same amount of time as clubs or swords, then we'd have a relation.
 
These Colours Don

Stupid based on what standard?  Military invention, with the sole exception of some minor parts of the cold war, is what has driven human ingeniuity for thousands of years.  Even the splitting of the atom has had non-military application, such as nuclear power (not always safe, I agree).  If mankind didn't need to fight, do you think you'd be sitting on a computer, listening to the arguments of someone half a world away?  Hey, when was the last time you had some tinned food.  There's a military invention.  Radar?  Military.

Yes, I realize that a lot of modern invention is also done for personal profit - telephone, light bulb, sure.  Inventors invent to be known as those who invented an invention.  But our drive to kill each other *always* leads to technological leaps and bounds.  The Space Race was a huge showoff to see who could build the biggest missile originally.  Putting a man in orbit wasn't designed to make us feel inferior, but to remind us that the USSR (and then the USA) could have weapons in space.  The Information Age was piggybacked on a military network that somehow went global.

Nuclear weapons are not nice things.  They are not pretty, they are not kind, nor are they even good.  But they are far from the worst thing ever.  We've only used 'em twice.  More people were killed in the firebombing of Dresden than in the two nuclear holocausts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.  What Hiroshima and Nagasaki did was allow for us, as a race (a very rare thing), to learn a healthy respect for the bomb.  That is not why it was dropped, but is a side-effect.  Even "Iron Joe" Stalin was afraid of what would happen if he got nuked.  In fact, what would have happened if the USA didn't use the bomb on the Japanese?  It's possible that Stalin would have provoked a war far more aggressively than he did in the late 40s, and we could have been at it all over again. The massive destructive power of a nuclear bomb cannot be judged by a test in a desert or in Siberia.  You cannot see the utter destruction of a built-up area in Nevada.

To me, these what-ifs are interesting enough.  And then, if you consider, what would have happened in Japan had the Allies landed, how many millions would have died.  Then you can weigh the cost-benefit of the dropping of the bomb.  Sure, it was horrific and destructive, but the Japanese people on the home islands (unlike those who lived on Okinawa and Saipan) still endure.
 
These Colours Don

Iron Duke you're right,  the "bomb" isn't the worst thing ever.  Man is.  It all depeds on how you use it.  Nuclear physics has improved our life a lot.  You compare the casualties of the two bombings with other battles and you're right there.  But,  don't forget how many have been born and suffered due to the radiation.  How many children with 6 fingers etc.  Don't forget these effects.
 
These Colours Don

If millions more Japanese citizens had died, how many millions of their children would never have been born?
 
These Colours Don

To me, it's not about nuclear weapons vs conventional weapons. I'm aware that far more people died and still die because of the latter ones. Still, nuclear bombs are far more nasty, aren't they? And we oughtn't to forget their disastrous effects as for radiation. Thus, to me, nuclear physics is still something that keeps terrifying me, no matter whether used for making power or weapons. Sooner or later we'll be bound to witness another nuclear disaster, either a military one (not too likely, though) or a civil one (quite likely I think, just a matter of time, I fear). This is not to supposed be a prophecy but a squealing feeling that I can't get rid of.
 
These Colours Don

LooseCannon said:
Stupid based on what standard?  Military invention, with the sole exception of some minor parts of the cold war, is what has driven human ingeniuity for thousands of years.
I wouldn't say stupid, I wouldn't even say wrong. Things, inventions on themselves are not good or bad. It's how people use them that makes the difference. But I'm not saying anything new here.
In this case, I don't dispute the existence and 'military invention' but the immorality of using scienific and material resources with the aim of killing people and taking power. Have you ever thought about why there were so many inventions during wars? The end justifies the means? :huh:
 
These Colours Don

LooseCannon said:
And then, if you consider, what would have happened in Japan had the Allies landed, how many millions would have died.  Then you can weigh the cost-benefit of the dropping of the bomb.

This is apparently a fallacy that some US generals thought up (although I'm no expert in military history, I did some reseach to write a proper commentary about this song) to justify a nuclear strike.

Japan was in fact close to surrender and was considering various options to do it without 'losing face'. The bombing of those two cities gave them a good 'excuse' to drop their weapons while retaining their honour.

But even if a ground assault on Japan could have been a slaughter, what was the purpose of dropping two bombs? Don't you think that one would have been more than enough to end the war in the Pacific?
 
These Colours Don

Serratia said:
I wouldn't say stupid, I wouldn't even say wrong. Things, inventions on themselves are not good or bad. It's how people use them that makes the difference. But I'm not saying anything new here.
In this case, I don't dispute the existence and 'military invention' but the immorality of using scienific and material resources with the aim of killing people and taking power. Have you ever thought about why there were so many inventions during wars? The end justifies the means? :huh:

I wouldn't say the ends justify the means, but if you think about these inventions, used during war...they've been used to kill people.  They can't be un-invented, certainly not something like a tin can (although a tin can is hardly an offensive weapon).  If something invented to kill people during war is still in use after the war, would it not be better to figure out a way to use it so that it could benefit mankind?  I'm thinking of something opposite to Alfred Nobel's development of Dynamite.  He worked hard to produce it so that it could be used to make industry more efficient, and yet it was used to kill people on a massive scale.  So, too, could something used to kill people be altered to help people...to address the debt owed to those who lost their lives.  Or something like that... :S
 
These Colours Don

Serratia said:
Have you ever thought about why there were so many inventions during wars?

Wars are a show of power of two opponents against one another. The most obvious use of power is the sheer physical strength to put the adversary down, but the power of the mind is also to be considered. Human ingenuity is at its best when challenged.

Pure scientific curiosity would create many inventions without the need for wars if people cared -- but most don't. But if it's about taking the upper hand on someone else, then it's a totally different matter...
 
These Colours Don

Maverick said:
This is apparently a fallacy that some US generals thought up (although I'm no expert in military history, I did some reseach to write a proper commentary about this song) to justify a nuclear strike.

Japan was in fact close to surrender and was considering various options to do it without 'losing face'. The bombing of those two cities gave them a good 'excuse' to drop their weapons while retaining their honour.

But even if a ground assault on Japan could have been a slaughter, what was the purpose of dropping two bombs? Don't you think that one would have been more than enough to end the war in the Pacific?

Maverick, there are (based on my education in history, which has included courses on modern Japan) two schools of thoughts regarding the situation in 1945 in Japan.  The first, as you said, is that the Japanese civil gov't was secretly reaching out for peace feelers.  It's undeniable fact.  Togo Shigenori, the foreign minister, was through the Swiss, attempting to open peace negotiations.  However, Togo & company were only one half of the Japanese cabinet.

What we fail to realize is that Japanese gov't is not very equivalent to Western government, or was not in 1937-45.  The Japanese cabinet, which made all executive decisions for the Japanese gov't, ran by consensus agreement, not majority.  That is to say, that the Japanese government could not begin a course of action without all cabinet members agreeing to this course - and they could not alter a course of action currently being undertaken without the agreement of all cabinet members.

Now.  We run into a Western concept at this point - the idea that the military works for the gov't, which then work for the people.  (I am not accusing anyone here of this preconception, I am recalling this from the several discussion sessions I participated in within my classroom environment.)  In the Japanese cabinet, civilian and military leaders were equals.  In fact, at the time of surrender, an Admiral was Prime Minister.

The Navy was far more willing to accept a surrender than the Army - the Army insisted that they be given the chance to repel the Americans on Japanese soil.  And then the Allies made the Potsdam Declaration - part of which included the jailing and possible trial of Japanese leaders.  Many members of the Japanese government (including the military members of cabinet) interpreted this declaration to include the Emperor as a possible war criminal.  Prime Minister Suzuki rejected the demands out of hand, as he was a Navy man.

It was at this point that the President of the United States had to make a choice - drop the nuke, or invade Japan.

Operation Downfall was the overarching plan for the invasion of the Japanese home islands, and it was planned before the invasion of Okinawa - in fact, the invasion of Okinawa was imperative to the success of Downfall.  The violent and suicidal defense of Okinawa only reaffirmed the military's base assumption that "operations...will be opposed not only by the available organized military forces of the Empire, but also by a fanatically hostile population."

April, 1945 estimates of the casualties placed the Operation Downfall casualties at approximately 1.2 million Allies, with untold numbers of millions of Japanese civilians killed.  Perhaps this is the telltale, as to how many casualties the Americans were expecting: early in 1945 the government had 500,000 Purple Heart medals manufactured to hand out to wounded soldiers in the two-pronged invasion.

As for the point, why drop two bombs?  You can ask General of the Army George Marshall, who encouraged dropping two nuclear devices on Japan.  He did not believe the nuking would entice the Japanese to surrender (remember, the Emperor had to directly step in with the cabinet and urge them to accept an armistice), and wanted to try both types of weapons for determining which would be more useful as tactical support weapons during the invasion.

Thus, the second school of thought, is that the Japanese were *not* preparing to surrender.  While even a majority of the populace may have considered surrender a viable option by August of 1945, those in power were most certainly not ready to give in, especially the high-ranking army officers deeply seeded with the code of bushido.  The military could easily keep the civilian government from acting on peace feelers rather easily, and the military police system set up inside of Japan made several hundred arrests on "belief of wish to surrender" during July alone.

The idea of dropping the bomb to end the war, in alternative to an invasion, is pretty much a fallacy.  At least, that's not what the generals wanted - it is what Truman wanted.  Marshall and co. were against dropping a nuke until in support of an invasion, for fear that possible detonation sites would be suddenly inhabited by American, British, and Chinese prisoners - basically to keep their trump card up their sleeve for as long as humanly possible.  Truman made the call to preliminarily drop the nuclear devices, and he was urged by Marshall to test both types - preferrably on the same night, but Truman again decided to delay.

What actually happened, is that the generals jumped on the bandwagon afterwards, saying they wanted to give the Japanese a chance to surrender too, when it was just one man, or a handful of men (I personally believe it was FDR's lasting influence here that made Truman make the choice he did), who chose that course of action.  Were the Japanese getting ready to surrender?  I highly doubt it would have been possible, with the generals assuring the Emperor that they would inflict enough damage on the American landings to get a better peace treaty than "unconditional surrender", with the structure of the Japanese government and police, and indeed, with the general assumption that the Potsdam Declaration applied to the immortal and divine Emperor.
 
These Colours Don

LooseCannon said:
More people were killed in the firebombing of Dresden than in the two nuclear holocausts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Why the hell do we always have to put things into relation? Here's a fucking relation for you: The Black Plague caused more deaths than the Holocaust. Does this have any meaning? Of course not. Human deaths can't be outweighed by human deaths. That's a lesson of history everybody seems to refuse to learn.

What I mean to say is, an action can not be deemed "better" or "worse" because fewer people died through it. Basically any action that deliberatly causes the death of people is disgusting and despiseworthy. The nuclear bomb is just as bad as a conventional bomb or a grenade. They are all to be considered the worst things mankind ever made.

Please don't come with any soldier morale now. I'm aware of all the arguments you can possibly throw at my head. Of course, the guilty one is always the one who starts, and I know that. But please, for anything's sake, quit putting human life and death into relation. I'm really sick and tired of that.
 
These Colours Don

Well.  I am against death, I don't believe in the death penalty, I hate the idea of fighting and war.  But I honestly don't believe in the idea that there is a choice, in all situations, to do nothing.  And I know that we'll never be able to see eye  to eye - I believe that sometimes violence is necessary, and you don't.  It's that simple.
 
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