Black Sabbath

I have to stand for something, and as painful as it is, I’m doing it.
This stuck with me when I read the following.


Check out this very precise account by Ward.
http://www.billward.com/2012/05/statement-on-upcoming-black-sabbath-shows/

Dear Sabbath Fans and Fellow Musicians,
I sincerely regret to inform you that after a final effort to participate in the upcoming Sabbath shows a failure to agree has continued. At this time I have to inform you that I won’t be playing with Black Sabbath at the Birmingham gig dated May 19th, 2012, nor will I be playing at Download on June 10th, 2012. Further, I will not be playing at Lollapalooza on August 3, 2012.

It is with a very sad heart that I bring you this news. I am sincerely passionate in my desire to play with the band, and I’m very, very sorry that it’s fallen to this. This statement is even more painstaking to write, as I was particularly excited to play alongside Tony Iommi after the recent treatments he underwent. I wanted that to become a reality.
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To express my thoughts about you, the Sabbath fans, I’m going to speak to you all through an experience my brother James had recently. My brother Jimmy lives in the U.K. When speaking with him a couple of days ago, he told me that an acquaintance had stopped him on the street and confronted him, “is your brother playing Birmingham? What’s going on? I waited in line with my son and paid x amount for the concert tickets.”

The man’s son is a young drummer. He’s going to see Sabbath, and he wants to see Bill Ward play drums. Upon hearing this news, I felt horrible. I couldn’t help feeling some resentment towards the failure to reach an agreement, the failure to remember where we came from, the failure to be as brothers, as we once were. To be clear, I’m not blaming the other guys or finding any faults with them. I would think it can’t be easy for them either, but this situation is just really sad. It’s sad that it’s come to this. “This” will surely leave a mark and be unwelcome to the memory. Hopefully “this” will heal and pass in time.

My heart sank when Jimmy told me about this young boy. I know this boy is going to be disappointed, and I don’t know how to amend it, other than to put my arms around the boy and tell him I love him. Sabbath fans have a voice and a face, to me you’re human, you have families and despair. You have ferocity and emotions and graciousness, and at this moment as far as I’m concerned you are also that young boy in England. I don’t know how to amend my part in these failings other than to put my arms around you and say I love you and let you know I’m very, very sorry.

Throughout this process, which began over a year ago, I have had to stand up for myself time and time again. I have had to stand up for myself and in doing so realize my actions indirectly, although unintentionally, are upsetting and hurting a lot of you. I know in my heart I couldn’t have done these concerts by agreeing the terms suggested. I made a solemn vow after the last European and Ozzfest concerts that I would never again enter into what was, in my opinion, a totally unsatisfactory contract. I have to stand for something, and as painful as it is, I’m doing it.

Earlier in April 2012, I’d been asked to participate “minimally” in the Download festival. I believe I’d been offered no more than three songs to play while another drummer presumably played the rest of the show with Black Sabbath. I was not willing to participate in that offer. I was not prepared to watch another drummer play a Sabbath set, while I was to play only three songs.

I found out about the Birmingham gig on Monday, April 30 through the Internet ad. I was taken aback somewhat by the date, and the fact it was Birmingham. Knowing the “signable” contract negotiations were at best in shreds, I was upset by the idea that the band was going to play Birmingham and play it assumedly without me. I had no prior knowledge of the date and location, and I felt totally excluded. We contacted the representative for Black Sabbath to see if something could be worked out. In the meantime my drum crew and I, along with our US endorsers, finished all the necessary planning for a swift departure to the UK. There wasn’t a whole lot to complete; we’d all been on standby more or less since mid-January 2012. The remaining work in the UK was confirmed done by our European and UK endorsers and we were good to go by Friday, May 4 2012. There were two stress points: firstly, getting an agreement in place, and secondly, getting to England in a timely manner. Jetlag time was taken into account as well as drum practice, a drum practice room in the heart of Birmingham, accommodation, and travel arrangements were all in place to meet with any band rehearsals that may have transpired before the Birmingham show. So far everything that had been arranged was on my dime, but we didn’t move ahead without a realistic confirmation.

Communications between the representative and my lawyer continued through the weekend of May 5 finalizing on Wednesday, May 9. The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download. My ideal thought was to play in full the Birmingham show, in full Download, and in full Lollapalooza.

I had notified the representative that May 10 was my cutoff day in order to have good lead-in time for England. On the night of May 9 I asked for a brief letter to be sent to the representative asking to find out if we were at an end. On the morning of Thursday, May 10, I received a reply in the affirmative. After consulting with my advisors and crew a decision was made to let go and stop.

I can’t prioritize the Sabbath fans making one show more important than the other. I can’t do that. All of you are important. It’s all the gigs or none at all. I can’t come to Birmingham and “see what happens” knowing there is a risk of not being able to play Download or Lollapalooza. Again, for me, it’s all or nothing. I had to say “no” to Birmingham on the principle of wanting to play all the shows. Saying no to Birmingham is very difficult for me. My family grew up in Birmingham. Black Sabbath grew up in Birmingham. It’s still my hometown and I resent having to arrive at such a difficult choice.

Although the statement was made that, “the door is always open” for me, as explained above, walking through that door is not always as easy as it sounds. There are many complicated issues and unseen and unspoken agendas on hand. I can assure you, my criteria for a “signable” contract is based in mindful principles, respectability, and acknowledgement of my history within the band.

I hold no malice or resentment towards the other band members. I love them; I’m tolerant of them; I’m frustrated with them, as they may be with me. My fight has never been with them. I’ll love them forever. In my opinion, nobody wins this time; the band doesn’t win; the fans for an original lineup don’t win. Nobody wins, nobody. Even the ones who thought they did.

I didn’t want to make this decision, but I have to be honest and transparent. This is the statement I didn’t want to write; it’s the last thing I wanted to do. But, I have written it, and now it can go into the universe.

Since Spring of 2011, I’ve waited patiently and hopefully for a signable contract, you know the rest. I stand for the boy in the U.K., for the coming drum student, for all the drummers, who write their parts out and get stiffed on the publishing, I stand with the Sabbath fans chanting “Bill Ward” and asking “why?” and I stand with Tony and Geezer and Ozzy.

On a final note, even though I’m at an end with the upcoming announced concerts, I will remain with an open mind and a position of willingness to negotiate “signable” terms with Sabbath’s representatives in the future.

Stay strong.
Stay safe.

With all my heart and strength, I love you,
Bill Ward
 
Geezer Butler's Saturday statement:
Heavy Heart
Posted on May 19, 2012
I feel sad to see the Sabbath reunion becoming a bit of a soap opera on the internet. It has been a very tough year for us as a band, having announced our reunion plans, only for Tony to be diagnosed with lymphoma, leaving us no choice but to postpone the proposed Sabbath tour, and then for Bill to go public on his site about an un-signable contract. None of us knew how Tony was going to respond to his intensive chemo therapy, and radiotherapy. Ozzy and myself flew to England to be with Tony, and on his “good” days, we’d meet at his home studio and put ideas together for the upcoming album, all sitting down together, no drummer involved, just 3 of us quietly putting together ideas. We thought that when we had enough songs together for a full band rehearsal, we’d move back to L.A and put the whole thing together with Bill. Unfortunately, to our surprise, Bill issued a statement on his site saying he’d been offered an un-signable contract. He hadn’t told any one of us he was having contractual problems, and frankly those things are worked out between our representatives, and never between the four of us let alone in public. We had the idea of keeping just one show in this year, hoping that Tony would be well enough for that show, and that things with Bill would be sorted. As you may expect, a one off show at Donnington Festival (Download) costs an absolute fortune to stage, involving over 50 people, transport, air fares, hotels, meals, agents, promotors, accountants, lawyers etc, so none of us, expected to make much money from it- it was a one off Sabbath show for the fans, before we go into recording the new album. Apparently, this wasn’t acceptable to Bill’s representatives, they wanted an amount that was so unrealistic that it seemed to have been a joke. So we resigned ourselves to doing Download without Bill, hoping he’d change his mind and at least make a guest appearance. We started rehearsals a few weeks ago with Tommy Cluefetos, the drummer who will be on the Ozzy and Friends Tour. Brilliant drummer and good bloke. It was decided we’d better do a warm up show, to break the ice since we haven’t played together live. The O2 Academy was available in Birmingham, where we were rehearsing, so we decided on that, and to make a donation to Help For Heroes Charity, since we’d be ironing out any glitches we may have. Then Bill put out a further statement saying he’d been ready to play the Birmingham show , but he was expected to have to do it “for free”- well, I think that’s basically how you raise money from gigs for charity – you play them “for free”.
All I am saying is that there are two sides to everything. I do hope to play with Bill again some day. For whatever reason; it wasn’t meant to be this time. Bill’s made his decision, and I have to respect that. Hopefully this painful year will be worth the wait for the new Sabbath album and end in joy and happiness for all.
Stay frosty,
Geezer

+


Bill Ward's reaction:

Dear Sabbath Fans and Musicians,

I have read Geezer’s statement of May 19, 2012 titled “Heavy Heart.” Out of respect for the Birmingham gig, I wanted to wait 24 hours before releasing this statement. There are some points he brought up which I want to respond to.

1) I had indeed notified Ozzy, Tony and Geezer, well before my first public statement, that I was having contractual difficulties.

2) I came out into a public forum to be accountable to the fans primarily, and to say at a public level there’s a problem. The band members stopped talking and corresponding with me some time ago, with the exception of a nice letter from Tony on my birthday. Prior to that, Geezer and I were corresponding, but that stopped abruptly in late February after I emailed a specific question to him.

3) In my statement of May 15, I clearly stated I would play Birmingham for free. That was not a problem – charity or otherwise.

4) My Download fee was not an extravagant amount. Originally, when Download was part of a full tour, I had asked for a decent fee. More recently, as we were negotiating just Download/Birmingham and Lollapalooza, I told my attorney that I would accept the proposed small Download fee, but there were other parts of the offer that were unsatisfactory.

I will continue to be honest and respectful towards the band and our fans. I will also confront any untruths about me, and any fault finding missions aimed at me that come to my attention.

I hope the band and the fans had a good gig in Brum.

Stay safe/stay strong.
Bill Ward
 
Black Sabbath's set-list on Saturday night was:

'Into The Void'
'Under The Sun'
'Snowblind'
'War Pigs'
'Wheels Of Confusion'
'Electric Funeral'
'Black Sabbath'
'The Wizard'
'Behind The Wall Of Sleep'
'N.I.B.'
'Fairies Wear Boots'
'Lord Of This World'
'Tomorrow's Dream'
'Sweet Leaf'
'Symptom Of The Universe'
'Drum Solo'
'Iron Man'
'Dirty Women'
'Children Of the Grave'
'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath'
'Paranoid'

Read this review and well written article on metaltalk.net:

http://www.metaltalk.net/columns/20100134.php

I advise you to read it all and to watch the clips but here's already a large "fragment":


... ... Sabbath issued a very short response saying "there are two sides to every story", which is indeed very true, but we didn't hear their side until the afternoon of the gig, Saturday 19th May 2012, when Geezer issued a statement saying that Bill was asking for ridiculous amounts of money. The statement attempted to justify the 'play for free' request by saying that the whole purpose of a charity gig was to play for free.

I refer you back to the word 'donation'. Make of that what you will.

Geezer also pointed out that the Download gig was an expensive event to stage, which is very true, but headline acts at Download are paid enormous amounts, for example AC/DC were paid more than £3million to headline Download in 2010 and one band who headlined in the last three years received more than £4million. This is pretty much the norm for a headline gig of such magnitude.

There are other points in Geezer's statement from Saturday that simply do not add up but I will leave it there because I love Geezer Butler as a person and as a player and I really do not wish him, or anyone else associated with Black Sabbath, any ill will whatsoever.

I saved the main point of grievance until last and it is in two parts.

On Friday afternoon, the official Black Sabbath website was heavily amended. The discography was altered so that it only included albums up to 1979, i.e. albums by the original line-up. Also, every image on the site was doctored with Bill Ward's image completely removed. Airbrushed out of history? Bulldozed out of history more like...

A statement appeared on the Sabbath site on Sunday morning saying: "At the request of Bill Ward, through his attorney, so as to not give the public the wrong impression about his involvement in the current Black Sabbath lineup, we have temporarily removed Bill Ward's images from the main pages of the blacksabbath.com official website. In accordance with Bill Ward's attorney's request, we are doing so for the duration of the forthcoming shows."

Was this a backtracking response to the huge fan backlash that the image doctoring received? Surely the band would have been better advised to have anticipated this inevitable reponse and issued that statement up front? Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing but after all that has occurred in recent months, do they get the benefit of the doubt?

I doubt very much whether Sabbath would have the audacity to issue a statement saying that Bill had made that request when he hadn't but I have just written to Bill to ask him to clarify. I might not get a response but if I do, I'll decide what to do with it when and if it arrives.

The second part concerns the discography. Yes, it is fully understandable that with this line-up back in place, the band will want primarily to promote the pre-1979 catalogue. That is the material they will be playing live and that is the material that this current line-up are known for. It makes perfect sense, however to completely remove the post-1979 albums as though they never existed was wrong on so many levels, mainly because it was done in the week of the second anniversary of Ronnie James Dio's death and the band could not have disrespected him in a harsher way if they had put their collective minds to it.

I don't want to believe that they did it on purpose because I cannot believe that they would disregard Ronnie like that. Geezer was one of his pall bearers for crying out loud. I would much rather believe that it was an error of judgement or an oversight and I hope that I am right on that.

So prove me right Sabbath and create a post-1979 section on your website so you at least acknowledge Ronnie and give him the respect he deserves. You could do this in less than an hour.

Ronnie James Dio joined Black Sabbath in 1980 because Sharon Osbourne recommended him to Tony Iommi. Please don't think there is any agenda against Sharon or anyone else here. We truly appreciate and fuly acknowledge the fact that she is wholly responsible for the success Ozzy enjoyed after he left Sabbath and we doff our cap to all she has done to help keep the Black Sabbath name alive.

One of the purposes of this gig review was to draw a line under all the bullshit that has taken place over this last few months and totally move on from this unsavoury situation and just support the band.

But those plans came crashing down on Friday night after the disrespect shown to Ronnie and Bill and we took our train fare and beer/food/merchandise money and donated it all to Help For Heroes and The Ronnie James Dio Stand Up And Shout Cancer Fund, 50/50 between the two.

And we stayed in London and watched old Black Sabbath concerts on YouTube, mainly ones from 1980 onwards. We searched high and low for a full concert on video with Ronnie and Bill but there doesn't seem to be one available. The closest we could get is the one below, Black Sabbath at New York in 1980. Vinnie Appice had replaced Bill just before this gig so I've also included a performance of 'Sweet Leaf' with an extended Bill Ward drum solo for your enjoyment.

But we did find an audio recording of Sabbath with Ronnie and Bill on Wolfgang's Vault and you can listen to it by clicking here.

And we've included some video clips from Saturday night's gig. There's plenty on YouTube but a lot of them have really bad sound quality or are cut very short or don't do the band justice. The ones below are the best we found and are more than well worth a watch. ... ...
 
Not wanting to troll, but I actually don't think the article was particularly well-written. I've seen worse, but still.

Anyway, I think I made it clear time and again that I have no sympathy for this recent re-union at all. I never understood why this was promoted as such an 'historical' event at all, and that people bought into that so willingly. Sabbath had toured in the original line-up a mere six years ago, and towards the end, calls for them to fire Ozzy and move on with a new singer and finally record a new album were abundant. Surely, memories can't be that short?

I'm also wondering what exactly Iommi's role is in this. Judging from The Devil You Know, he was desperate to write and record new material. There is no other way to explain how this turned out to be the best Sabbath album in 29 years (before you slag me, this is my opinion) and how Iommi in particular sounds like he's playing for his life. I assume he would have gone on this way for the rest of his career hadn't Dio died.

It's sad to see how Sabbath are now selling their legacy as an Ozzy-only thing. It's not true that they make absolutely no mention of the latter years, but see for yourself how it is handled in their history section:

Osbourne went on to a highly successful solo career, which also saw him venture into reality TV (MTV’s popular The Osbournes series) and launch the annual Ozzfest tour. Helmed by guitarist Iommi, Black Sabbath persevered through a succession of lineup changes that sometimes did and sometimes didn’t include Butler and Ward. Several of Black Sabbath’s post-Osbourne albums - especially Heaven and Hell (1980), Mob Rules (1981) and Headless Cross (1989) - are highly regarded by hardcore fans. But when all was said and done, the classic lineup could not be bested.

What the hell is the last sentence supposed to mean? The band is essentially telling me I'm wrong for thinking the Dio-era lineup is better than the Ozzy one. And the way they represent the discography is making it even worse for me. And also, it's just not true that only hardcore Sabbath fans regard Heaven and Hell highly. From my experience, post-70's metal fans tend to think of the first two Dio albums as the best. If you compare this with the statement on Maiden's website:

The band made two strong albums with new singer Blaze Bayley and continued to honour their commitment to intensive touring, delivering the goods at every show. However, it was the return of Dickinson and guitarist Adrian Smith (who originally left the band in 1990) in 1999 when Iron Maiden became a six-piece, that established the ultimate Iron Maiden line-up of Bruce Dickinson on vocals, Steve Harris on bass, Nicko McBrain on drums and “the three amigos” – Adrian Smith, Dave Murray and Janick Gers - on guitar.

They're at least leaving you to decide for yourself whether you think the Blaze albums are better or not.

To me Sabbath have lost all their dignity now. A sad way to go for one of the best bands ever.
 
Alright, maybe it was not well written indeed, but it lays out some painful matters out in the open, so to speak.
And I appreciate that.


What the hell is the last sentence supposed to mean? The band is essentially telling me I'm wrong for thinking the Dio-era lineup is better than the Ozzy one.

Yep. :/
 
Pretty much my sentiments there, I've read through a few of the comments on and off the sabbath site after reading Foro's post as I wasn't terribly up to date.

I have always regarded the Dio albums as more to my liking than the Ozzy ones. Even the classic Sabbath songs - e.g Paranoid, War Pigs - I actually think Ozzy's voice brings them down from what they should/could be, although I think it suits the track Black Sabbath perfectly, very doomy. I am not a fan of such opinion disregarding statements in what should be factual based mediums, reading a biography on Priest I was rather unimpressed at how the writer described Ram it Down as instead of 'comercially unsuccessful' or 'ill recieved' or anything he just claimed it as a poorly written album, which is opinion not fact as a biography should really be. Maybe in some peoples eyes the original lineup could not be beat, but for many it can and was.

I saw Sabbath on that previous reunion tour, it was one of my very first gigs and is the reason why I didn't see all the fuss over this reunion. It wasn't till I heard of the album that I saw why there should be any fuss at all, but even then I can't say I was immensely excited. The whole thing is getting ludicrous, fans are throwing around statements like "you will never be Black Sabbath without Bill Ward" ... why? Does that mean any band who has a member change is no longer that band? Cos that rules out a heck of a lot.

If Ward has made the request to be removed from the history, in some ways I can understand as if I am unhappy with something's perception I will often prefer not to be associated with it, not liking people to get an incorrect view of who I am... but this is a pretty hefty history that he is asking to be removed from, and given the reasons it has come about it does rather seem like a toys out the pram affair. Had he been saying for many years "I'd rather forget the Sabbath days, it was a period of my life I greatly regret" or something then fair enough, but he's been perfectly happy to be remembered/shown in the history until this mess. Now yes, if he is being grossly underpaid compared to the rest of the band then he has something to be angry about but at the same time he is - as noted in many places - the least reliable of the members and probably the least well known as well. Not to say that justifies it because if he wasn't important to it then the "Full lineup" importance wouldn't really be there, but I can see logic in giving him a lower piece of the pie.

All in all, it's just getting stupid now. I don't see the fuss in the reunion, the comments at the end of the last reunion (as Perun said) are enough to make me wonder why they are going through it all again to begin with - fans and band that is.
 
Looks to me like the guys wanted to play together. Dio died but the spirit to play didn't.

The real fuss, naturally, started later because of the way things are going.
Now yes, if he is being grossly underpaid compared to the rest of the band then he has something to be angry about but at the same time he is - as noted in many places - the least reliable of the members and probably the least well known as well. Not to say that justifies it because if he wasn't important to it then the "Full lineup" importance wouldn't really be there, but I can see logic in giving him a lower piece of the pie.
Would you explain how you see it's logical? Any other logic besides you seeing him as the least known person? I don't find that a very convincing argument. Hard to imagine that a majority of the Sabbath fans doesn't know all the members of the band, especially from that era.
 
Would you explain how you see it's logical? Any other logic besides you seeing him as the least known person? I don't find that a very convincing argument. Hard to imagine that a majority of the Sabbath fans doesn't know all the members of the band, especially from that era.

Sorry I am not the best at explaining myself, it's not a very big argument at all and I'm not saying it's right, I can just see the reason that if someone is going to get a lower fee it would be him. Over the time's that Ward has been involved in Sabbath he has not been exceptionally reliable. If it's just a "They want to play" then the money shouldn't matter - although I have no idea whether it's simply a lower amount or a drastically lower amount. The other thing I had heard was that for the shows Ward was to only play a small part of the set and not the entire thing, which would of course mean he is contributing less.

Do I think he deserves less? no. But can I see why someone would offer him less? yes.
 
Sorry I am not the best at explaining myself, it's not a very big argument at all and I'm not saying it's right, I can just see the reason that if someone is going to get a lower fee it would be him. Over the time's that Ward has been involved in Sabbath he has not been exceptionally reliable. If it's just a "They want to play" then the money shouldn't matter - although I have no idea whether it's simply a lower amount or a drastically lower amount. The other thing I had heard was that for the shows Ward was to only play a small part of the set and not the entire thing, which would of course mean he is contributing less.

Do I think he deserves less? no. But can I see why someone would offer him less? yes.

Alright. Well, this was what he said in his latest comment:

3) In my statement of May 15, I clearly stated I would play Birmingham for free. That was not a problem – charity or otherwise.

4) My Download fee was not an extravagant amount. Originally, when Download was part of a full tour, I had asked for a decent fee. More recently, as we were negotiating just Download/Birmingham and Lollapalooza, I told my attorney that I would accept the proposed small Download fee, but there were other parts of the offer that were unsatisfactory.

But when you read his complete statements you get the bigger picture. To me he comes across as sincere (and as a gentleman) and I don't know why he would do this if things were not that unreasonable to him.

I like his attitude. If he's making a fuss, he's really standing for something ("I have to stand for something, and as painful as it is, I’m doing it"). he's doing it in all honesty and with constant respect.

Not sure if you read what he said but most of it is on this page (and believe me, it isn't that boring; these are the feelings of a musician who really wanted to play with these other guys, but not against all costs, not anymore at least). Anyway, he certainly touches my empathic feelings. ;)
 
From http://www.black-sabbath.com

With all the stuff regarding the recent gigs and drama surrounding Mk I of Black Sabbath, it’s easy to forget the other members from the band’s history are up to things, too. One of which is former singer Tony Martin.

 
I just noticed that there's no mention of Dio and Martin era albums on Black Sabbath's discography in their official website. There's also a thing like this on the history section :

"But when all was said and done, the classic lineup could not be bested."

<_<
 
:huh: :nuts2:


Why any band would disregard Heaven and Hell or Headless Cross? Can anyone explain it?
 
Tony Iommi runs through some of his 1984 equipment and a portion of licks mainly from the Heaven & Hell and Live Evil albums. He instructs on a variety of song licks including:
Neon Knights, NIB, Heaven & Hell, Children Of The Sea, Voodoo, Iron Man, Black Sabbath and many more!
 
Meh.

Good stuff:
Geezer's bass
Iommi's guitar

Bad stuff:
Bill's not playing
Ozzy
Rubin
Since Ozzy is in the band, that means Sharon is close which is never ever a good thing
Stupid album title
They said there will probably be 15 songs on an album, which is too much
Wilk is a good drummer, but he'll probably just go through the motions instead of doing something memorable, since he's a session drummer
 
Inflammatory post:

If this is only one note worse than The Devil You Know, it was not worth making.
 
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