Bayley-era Maiden vs. Martin-era Black Sabbath vs. Ripper-era Judas Priest?

[Iron Lurker]

Maiden and Priest are my two favorite bands but I'm not particularly fond of the Blaze and Ripper eras. I have grown to like XF and Ripper did do a good live album with Priest though. But I would have to give the nod to Martin Sabbath. Headless Cross

-- A Message From Your Friendly Neighborhood Apologist Maidentard.

 

[Diesel 11]

If I were to rank all of them...

1: X Factor
2: Headless Cross
3: Eternal Idol
4: Virtual XI
5: Tyr
6: Jugulator
7: Cross Purposes
8: Forbidden
9: Demolition

Off the top of my head, I'd go:

1. Black Sabbath, Headless Cross
2. Iron Maiden, The X Factor
3. Black Sabbath, Tyr
4. Iron Maiden, Virtual XI
5. Black Sabbath, Eternal Idol
6. Black Sabbath, Cross Purposes
7. Judas Priest, Demolition


















8. Black Sabbath, Forbidden
9. Judas Priest, Jugulator

 

[BludBrutha]

-- A Message From Your Friendly Neighborhood Apologist Maidentard.

Love it!

 

[MindRuler]

Love it!

Love your new avatar!

 

[LooseCannon]

On what planet is X Factor a better album than the one with these songs on it?

Spoiler

Earth I guess

 

[malfeitor]

The Bayley era - really good albums (yes, I will always defend the two albums IM recorded with him, despite their obvious flaws), not so great concerts

The Ripper era - one good album (Jugulator) and one terrible record (Demolition) - killer live

The Martin era - one fantastic LP (Headless Cross), some good ones (Tyr, Cross Purposes), one decent album (Eternal Idol), one weak release (Forbidden), very solid live

Overall Sabbath wins.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Tony Martin stands head and shoulders above the other two in terms of vocal performance. He's easily the most talented. The Sabbath albums with Martin were mostly good-to-great, even if they will never be as memorable as the Ozzy or Dio material.

Blaze still existed within Maiden, and Maiden still wrote a few all-time classic songs with him in the band. Regardless of his performance issues, or the fact that they hired the wrong guy to begin with, the songs endure.

Ripper Priest had good live performances, but gave the world nothing and added zero to Priest's legacy.

 

[Diesel 11]

I wonder if there's a world where Tony Martin ends up the new Iron Maiden singer and Blaze Bayley the new Black Sabbath singer. That would have been wild.

 

[andreljbernardo]

Tony Martin stands head and shoulders above the other two in terms of vocal performance. He's easily the most talented. The Sabbath albums with Martin were mostly good-to-great, even if they will never be as memorable as the Ozzy or Dio material.

Blaze still existed within Maiden, and Maiden still wrote a few all-time classic songs with him in the band. Regardless of his performance issues, or the fact that they hired the wrong guy to begin with, the songs endure.

Ripper Priest had good live performances, but gave the world nothing and added zero to Priest's legacy.

That's what I think too. In fact, Martin is my second favourite vocalist of Sabbath, just below Dio, despite being Ozzy the most iconic of all, ofc. Headless Cross is brilliant, in quite the same level of Sabbath's most classic albums, and Tyr, Cross Purpose and Eternal Idol are great.

 

[andreljbernardo]

I wonder if there's a world where Tony Martin ends up the new Iron Maiden singer and Blaze Bayley the new Black Sabbath singer. That would have been wild.

Oh, man, that would have been really awesome.

 

[Iron Lurker]

Love it!

I figured you would

 

[laurenz00h]

Martin Sabbath, by a far margin. Tony Martin was an amazing studio singer and a solid live singer who could channel any Sabbath singer (and did the Ozzy stuff better than RJD). The Eternal Idol, Headless Cross, and Tyr are all great albums. Martin's vocals are top notch and he's somewhat underrated lyricist.

I love The X-Factor and parts of VXI, but Blaze couldn't cut it live (and wasn't let to), and he fared much better with his '00s albums and gigs. Ripper's Priest albums, while better than their reputation, are underwhelming and soaked with contemporary trends like groove and nu metal. On stage Ripper was a a beast vocally, altough he's stage presence left a lot to be desired.

In a sense all of these fellows got a bit of a raw deal on their hands. Martin's tenure was riddled with bad management and record label, and the Dio-reunion killed the flow of the Tyr-lineup: Cross Purposes and Forbidden aren't nearly as good as their predecessors. Blaze had to sing Bruce's songs that out of his range and he eventually blew his Voice. Ripper wasn't given the songwriting and support that Priest had in their prime; who knows what those records could've Been If they had focused on traditional metal instead of chasing the current trends.

 

[Kalata]

Ripper wasn't given the songwriting and support that Priest had in their prime; who knows what those records could've Been If they had focused on traditional metal instead of chasing the current trends.

^I guess the KK's Priest albums are a good example of this.

 

[Yax]

^I guess the KK's Priest albums are a good example of this.

The second, maybe. The first one is mostly somewhere between trash quality and underwhelming filler material - and I dreamt of K.K. and Ripper joining forces for years and the disappointment with Sermons of the Sinner was palpable, to say the least.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Ripper wasn't given the songwriting and support that Priest had in their prime; who knows what those records could've Been If they had focused on traditional metal instead of chasing the current trends.

When it comes to Priest, though, “the songwriting” you’re referencing was Rob Halford. Ripper doesn’t write anything. Without Halford, the band is incapable of writing “classic Priest” songs because Halford is what makes Tipton and Downing’s music work.

 

[Yax]

When it comes to Priest, though, “the songwriting” you’re referencing was Rob Halford. Ripper doesn’t write anything. Without Halford, the band is incapable of writing “classic Priest” songs because Halford is what makes Tipton and Downing’s music work.

That being said, they didn't try to write any classic Priest songs - they wanted to double down on the brutality of Painkiller with Jugulator and mix it up with some Thrash-ish influences (and Jugulator was already written when Ripper joined).

 

[laurenz00h]

When it comes to Priest, though, “the songwriting” you’re referencing was Rob Halford. Ripper doesn’t write anything. Without Halford, the band is incapable of writing “classic Priest” songs because Halford is what makes Tipton and Downing’s music work.

Fair enough, Rob definitely was/is responsible for the lyrics and vocal melodisen, not sure how much he composed and arranged though. Be that as may, Priest did write their best material with Halford/Tipton/Downing. However, like Yax said above, I do believe that Tipton/Downing took The wrong musical route, and Glenn also botched the production in both albums...

...which serves as a seque to production values. All three bands suffered from terrible album productions, although I think the Martin albums sound the best of the bunch overall:

- The Eternal Idol is one of my favourite sounding Sabbath-albums (as it should be, they spent a shitload of money to it). I LOVE Headless Cross and the way it sounds, but I recognize that objectively speaking it sounds dated and is horribly mixed. Tyr, again, has its problems, mainly Cozy Powell's drums drowning Iommi's guitar. Forbidden's original mix, well, thank God for the remix...
- No need to talk about The X-Factor's sonic deficiencies. It is a big part of Blaze's raw deal that 'Arry didn't hire a real producer once Birch retired. Blaze and the band deserved better. And same goes for Priest records after Painkiller and before Andy Sneap came on board. Glenn-produced albums sound horrible, Redeemer of Souls being the worst offender. I'm not particularly fond of Roy Z's work in Angel of Retribution, it's a surprisingly muddy sounding album.

 

[Yax]

Fair enough, Rob definitely was/is responsible for the lyrics and vocal melodisen, not sure how much he composed and arranged though. Be that as may, Priest did write their best material with Halford/Tipton/Downing. However, like Yax said above, I do believe that Tipton/Downing took The wrong musical route, and Glenn also botched the production in both albums...

...which serves as a seque to production values. All three bands suffered from terrible album productions, although I think the Martin albums sound the best of the bunch overall:

- The Eternal Idol is one of my favourite sounding Sabbath-albums (as it should be, they spent a shitload of money to it). I LOVE Headless Cross and the way it sounds, but I recognize that objectively speaking it sounds dated and is horribly mixed. Tyr, again, has its problems, mainly Cozy Powell's drums drowning Iommi's guitar. Forbidden's original mix, well, thank God for the remix...
- No need to talk about The X-Factor's sonic deficiencies. It is a big part of Blaze's raw deal that 'Arry didn't hire a real producer once Birch retired. Blaze and the band deserved better. And same goes for Priest records after Painkiller and before Andy Sneap came on board. Glenn-produced albums sound horrible, Redeemer of Souls being the worst offender. I'm not particularly fond of Roy Z's work in Angel of Retribution, it's a surprisingly muddy sounding album.

A couple of points here: Roy Z is a producer, not much of a mixer, though popular belief is that he mixed CW and AoB. He has mixed very few works, (and Halford, Priest and Dickinson aren't any of those - though Z might have mixed the unofficial, lawsuit-release, Live in London Halford gig) and on the odd occassions that he has mixed albums, he has been co-credited alongside the main mixing engineer.

... And I do think Glenn actually nailed the sound on Jugulator considering it's 1997 and the direction they were going for.

... And Redeemer is a glorified demo, probably recorded in Glenn's studio, although not mixed by Glenn. They really should have Sneap remix it if they saved the track files and do a "Redeemer... Reimagined" release.

 

[laurenz00h]

A couple of points here: Roy Z is a producer, not much of a mixer, though popular belief is that he mixed CW and AoB. He has mixed very few works, (and Halford, Priest and Dickinson aren't any of those - though Z might have mixed the unofficial, lawsuit-release, Live in London Halford gig) and on the odd occassions that he has mixed albums, he has been co-credited alongside the main mixing engineer.

... And I do think Glenn actually nailed the sound on Jugulator considering it's 1997 and the direction they were going for.

... And Redeemer is a glorified demo, probably recorded in Glenn's studio, although not mixed by Glenn. They really should have Sneap remix it if they saved the track files and do a "Redeemer... Reimagined" release.

Good points, and mea culpa. I guess what matters most is what the end product sounds, and all these bands have had problems with productions and mies, which poses the question whether they've had the right people behind the desk or not. I think in all instances the band leaders, management, and circumstances on music were responsible for the success or lack thereof, maybe even more than the singers themselves. But I would also argue that these same legacy bands, in turn, gave Tony, Blaze, and Ripper great opportunities and in the end careers in music. Not bad.

Btw, I should listen to Jugulator again, I don't remember particularly well how it sounds, but I really like some of the tracks there, Burn on Hell, Bullet Train, and Cathedral Spires. And I haven't really listened to KK's Priest, should give those albums a fair spin despite the silly song titles and lyrics. Halford's "paratamizing lazer bullet" lyrics are somewhat endearing, but I couldn't get past Sons of Sentinel or One More Shot at Glory...

 

[Azas]

I can't decide. I was never really into the Martin-era Sabbath. Blaze has The X Factor under his belt—plus “Futureal” and “The Clansman.” Ripper’s albums with Priest aren’t particularly impressive, but live, he absolutely kicked ass with them. I suppose, in the end, I’ll go with Blaze.