Anti Semitism in France

[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Apr 18 2005, 04:12 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Apr 18 2005, 04:12 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Anyone who reads Mein Kampf and takes it seriously was already a racist, and Hitler's anti-Semetic views have hardly influenced that person at all.
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I totally agree with you mate.
Mein Kampf is a "good" historical book since it is related to hisory : nazism, WWII, Neo-Nazi....

But, some ppl (mostly kids) see themselves like this guy, called Adolf Hitler, who hated his father, loved his mother, then found himself as an orphan, but he managed to survive, and as an ambitious person, he finally became "a self made man", a "hero", or whatever fantasies they make about him (but this final part isn't in the mein kampf, cause he was still in jail afer a "cout d'etat").
Then by making him as an idol - the guy who fought hard to become "somebody" - they follow his path, and simply start to look like nazis ! And welcome the catastrophies...

I've seen this scenario many times, with ppl that are/were close to me or not, and I tell you, it makes you hate the name "mein kampf".

Anyway, it's still a historical book and I remember that on the french version, it is written "Tout francais doit lire ce livre" - "Every french person must read this book" - And as a personal advice, if you are not intrested in WWII, if you're not making a research about Hitler, or something else related to the book, just forget it.

Note: I'm not saying that if you read the mein kampf you'll be nazi, not at all. But just as I explained above, some ppl become, and sometimes without knowing it.

-Sorry to edit the post twice, but I had problem with the Italic font - Cheers
 
"Tout francais doit lire ce livre" is actually a quote from Charles de Gaulle. The French are described in there as a race of peasants, which is why they should also be treated as an inferior race, albeit somehow useful.

Our friend Adolf had similar happy descriptions for many other peoples on the planet. According to him, only the Germans and some Austrians were worthy of breathing our precious atmosphere. What a great thinker! [!--emo&<_<--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/dry.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'dry.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Apr 18 2005, 08:25 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Apr 18 2005, 08:25 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]"Tout francais doit lire ce livre" is actually a quote from Charles de Gaulle.
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I just checked it out, and on the version that I have, it's written "Tout Francais doit lire ce livre." Marechal LYAUTEY (Hubert Lyautey)
But you're right, General de Gaulle said it too.

And Mav, he's not our friend !! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I hate it when I enter discussions late but too keep the discussion in the subject of anti-semetism in France SMX is right, It has been fueled by Christianity's views of Jews TO SOME EXTENT. After the Enlightenment and the French Revolution, when France wanted NOTHING to do with the church and it's authority (they went to the extreme of creating their own calender system), they still didn't deem Jews as equal citizens. A big issue was modernization which included secularization, the process through which religion loses importance and power in the public realm and is relegated to people's private life and becomes "a sunday thing."

. Modernization of Jews in the Ottoman and French Near east was stimulated primarily by the Alliance Israélite Universelle schools. The school was focused mainly in the Gallicization of Jews with no regards to their cultural past or needs. It did this by setting the curriculum in schools and changing the customs and traditions of its students.
Elie Cohen, an Alliance alumn himself, mentions that most Jews did not necessarily embrace the AIU, but rather the small intellectual elite that had found favor with Europeans since the Protectorate. He was so Gallicized in fact that he no longer spoke Judeo-Arabic fluently, but rather French was his prime mode of communication both in writing and speaking. While Mesopotamian Jews wanted to modernize their schools keeping in mind the growing influence of European powers in the area, they did not, however, want to do it by compromising their traditions.
The local authorities were in constant struggle with the AIU over what they were willing to allow the school to enforce. For example, the main goal of the AIU was to instill the French language and culture above all else, however the local community preferred to learn English because of its importance in business,

They said that if it was necessary to adopt a European language as the language of instruction, English would be preferable: the language of ties with Britain-the power with influence over the Ottoman Empire; the language of ties with India and the Far East; and the language of most of the commercial houses, firms, and engineering concerns in Mesopotamia.

Because of this constant struggle the local community established schools of their own that would modernize their children without sacrificing their traditions. This vastly contrasts what occurred in Europe with the advent of Haskalah. Jews in central Europe were eager to be at an equal status with Gentile society and if that meant forgoing tradition and embracing European culture and languages, they did. Yet in Eastern Europe the opposite occurred, with the mostly Ashkenazi population rejecting Haskalah and modernity all together. So while Mesopotamian Jews struggled balancing modernity with tradition, European Jews either completely secularized or couched themselves deeper in tradition shunning all modern advancement.
The Reform movement was an anti-traditionalist response to modernity in which the eternal validity of halakha was denied and imposed liturgical changes. This prompted traditionalists like Moses Sofer to answer by rejecting modernity all together. Mesopotamian Jewry reacted more opened minded towards the wave of modernity. A reason for this could be how they were treated. In Europe Jews had been and were being abused, insulted and forbidden certain jobs for being “backward”. By adopting European culture and getting rid of their “Jewishness” they would be treated fairly and allowed all the freedoms everyone else had, they were willing to do it.
Jews in Muslim lands however, weren’t treated so harshly and in fact their knack for business was recognized and put to use by Muslim authorities. They were left alone as long as they paid the special tax imposed to them and recognized Islam and the Muslim authorities to be superior to them. Because they were not suffering the abuses of Central or Eastern European Jews, they did not see the need in either rejecting their Jewishness to fit in or to recede further into tradition as protection. They allowed the learning of European languages, but not to fit in, rather to keep up with the new emerging global economy.
Because of their expulsion from Iberia in 1492, the mainly Sephardi Jews of Mesopotamia did not suffer the abuses their coreligionists suffered in Central and Eastern Europe and modernization reached them rather late. At the same time as noted above because they were spared from the abuses of their European brethren their acceptance of modernization was more lax and gradual instead of the extremes of assimilation and traditionalism found in Europe.
 
However, France to this day not only has problems with its Jewish Population but with it's Arab population as well, Muslim Children are prohibited to wear their traditional dress to school because it is seen as an eye-sore and as an open rejection to their "Frenchness".
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Apr 18 2005, 07:59 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Apr 18 2005, 07:59 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, France to this day not only has problems with its Jewish Population but with it's Arab population as well, Muslim Children are prohibited to wear their traditional dress to school because it is seen as an eye-sore and as an open rejection to their "Frenchness".
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I beg to disagree here, mate. Since the Revolution of 1789 (a useless bloodbath that didn't change much), the State and Church are separated. State schools therefore -- quite rightly -- do not accept any sign of religion that's screamingly obvious (a discreet Christian cross or a Star of David around the neck is tolerated, but the "penguin outfit" Muslim girls have to wear is just too much). Besides, many feminists (is Owly around?) agree to say that it's condescending on women to force them to wear the Islamic veil.

Traditional dress is fine wherever it's the tradition to wear it. But just remember that "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".
 
While I agree with you Mav I must also point out that in a State where Separation of Church and State exists, it also means that the state could care less what religion you practice and how you choose to express it. French schools denying muslim girls their CHOICE (contrary to popular belief many do it out of free will) to wear their "penguin" outfit is actually acting AGAINST this very principle and it is judging what religions it deems to accept or reject. Personally I don't see what the big hoopla is and by not letting them dress that way MORE girls are dressing that way. Instead of ignoring it and let time do the work for them. Because their children will be more "french" and their children's children will be even more galiziced etc.
 
Are you implying that France will soon become an Islamic Republic? [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
That'd be neat to see....the Islamic Republic of Frankistan


Seriously though, I'm torn by the whole issue. The Revolution, as Maverick points out, did stress breaking down religion's stranglehold on daily life in France. I do support the idea of protecting cultural identity in this way, though. If Muslims want to lead a traditional Muslim life, they should live in a Muslim country. If they want to lead a French life, live in France. As Mave said, "When in Rome" seems to apply.

On the other hand, the Revolution also stressed liberty - it's taking away the rights of expression of some French citizens.



Gah, I hate it when I find a paradox in liberalism...
 
Liberalism is full of paradoxes... Deal with that! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Apr 18 2005, 02:00 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Apr 18 2005, 02:00 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]On the other hand, the Revolution also stressed liberty...
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From the admittedly little I know about the French Revolution (compared to our resident historians and French friends), Mav's term "useless bloodbath" is a much more accurate description than "liberty". It may have started with that intention, but it became just another struggle for power in the end.

I also agree with the Duke's assertion that Mein Kampf should not be sold in mass-market editions as if it were any ordinary book. I've seen it on the shelf at my local bookstore, and I couldn't understand why.
 
"When in Rome do as the Romans" only goes so far. I can still be French and Muslim at the same time. My RELIGION (or lack there of for all my atheist pals) does not interfere with my NATIONALITY or citizenship. For example, here in the U.S in a public highschool Jews can wear their little hats (I forgot what they're called), Christians can wear as many crosses as they want, people can even sport a swastika and it doesn't make them any more or less American. So I'm sorry Duke but I find your statement, "If Muslims want to lead a traditional Muslim life, they should live in a Muslim country. If they want to lead a French life, live in France." nothing but BS because I can live the life I want wherever I want (keep in mind wherever meaning countries that have separation of church and state and are democracies [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]). Saying "Go back to your country" or anything akin to that is narrow-minded and segregationist. Might as well have black schools and white schools again, and seperate water fountains for all minorities, and have one country full of nothing but mormons and another one for all the atheists and then one for all the black atheists and another for all the white rastefarians.....
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Apr 18 2005, 05:58 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Apr 18 2005, 05:58 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]For example, here in the U.S in a public highschool ... people can even sport a swastika...
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Really? When I was in high school, that was banned (at least, in school). And I find it hard to believe that would have changed.

If you meant it's legal to wear a swastike in public, that's true, but your sentence seemed to be talking about schools.

[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Apr 18 2005, 05:58 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Apr 18 2005, 05:58 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Might as well have ... one country full of nothing but mormons...
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As someone who suffers with Mormon in-laws, I'm fully in favor of shipping them all off to some other nation! [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Secularity is indeed a great paradox. It could be either anti-religious or pro-religious, depending on the society you live in.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Apr 19 2005, 02:58 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Apr 19 2005, 02:58 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]My RELIGION does not interfere with my NATIONALITY or citizenship.
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I think Onhell is right here. And I shall add that it must not interfere with my nationality.

Btw, the french law that forbiddens any religious symbols in schools applies only for secular schools. So it's logical that there is no need to put any big cross, big star, kippa... it won't be accepted.
But if you're in a big need to show your religion, you can go public with whtever you want, or go to a religious school (realted to your religion) where they accept such things. And if you don't want to change school - going to a religious one- maybe the last choice you have is to accept this law.
I might point out as well that this politic of going to the school that follows your religion will seperate the religions more and more : you'll have christians in christian schools, or worse than that ; orthodox in orthodox schools, catholics in catholic schools, jews in jewish schools and counting etc...


Now, personally, I think it's unfair to put a severe law as this one for religious manners. But, honnestly, what's fair in this world ? Nothing.
And thinking about the french sikh, you think it's fair ? what would they do ?
And btw France is a secular country. They accept just like many other countries all religions, and religious traditions.
So thinking of leaving this beautiful country for a single law is just a stupid act. And an other thing, you've got 3-4 M french muslims in France.... now to go and tell them, "if you want to live a muslim life, please go away from here" is ridiculous for 2 reasons :

I- You just can't, it's called racism
II- They have the right to live in their own country, and they are happy

In the end, all what the french students have to do is just accept this law, even if it's unfair cause they can't make any thing about it, or change it. Many talks took place last year in France, and in schools the majority voted For this law.
So accepting it will be the best choice. And this world is full of sh*t and racism. [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

P.S: the little hat for the jews is called kippa [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] the little hat for the jews is called kippa[/quote]

I thought it was a yarmulke...or is one Hebrew and the other Yiddish?
 
To answer the first question about France being an antisemite country and Jews fearing to live there any longer, I do think it's a huge problem over here.
Obviously, France has a historical antisemitism. Some kings (Philippe IV le Bel did it a lot) used to threaten Jews on a regular basis : making them pay for their stay in the kingdom. Actually, that threat was also used on the Italians who ran banks.
As for today, antisemitism is sadly, I think, still strong. Now, I'm not so sure it leads that many people to emigrate, but I suppose the journalists who did that report you saw must have the right numbers and the right sources.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, France to this day not only has problems with its Jewish Population but with it's Arab population as well, Muslim Children are prohibited to wear their traditional dress to school because it is seen as an eye-sore and as an open rejection to their "Frenchness"[/quote]
On this point, Onhell, I have to disagree.
There had been a huge (national) debate on that subject in France last year. There has been a law saying that any obvious sign of religion shouldn't been allowed at school. Sure enough, that law aimed mainly at Muslims because of the way girls and women are dressed when they follow the strict "dress code" of this religion. And sure enough, it has been a way to undermine Islam in France.

Now, there's also some others points to highligt.
France is a secular country, where State and Church are separated. Therefore, you can choose your religion and practise it as long as it doesn't trouble the "public and secular order". The question of the women islamic "dress" arose because in some seldom cases, some girls at school were forbidden to take sport courses by their parents because they saw the sports' clothes as indecent. The question of secularity also arose because some girls were forbidden to take biology courses because of the sexual education subjects.
Secularity at school means that every boys and girls have the same opportunities to learn the same subjects. If you choose secular school, you accept that. Every kid must learn the same things.

It's been a huge debate because this law is also an attack on liberties and mostly on the liberty of practising the religion you choose.

There are many pros and cons on that subject and it is very difficult one to talk about. I don't agree with some aspects of this law, but I do with others...

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I beg to disagree here, mate. Since the Revolution of 1789 (a useless bloodbath that didn't change much), the State and Church are separated. State schools therefore -- quite rightly -- do not accept any sign of religion that's screamingly obvious (a discreet Christian cross or a Star of David around the neck is tolerated, but the "penguin outfit" Muslim girls have to wear is just too much). Besides, many feminists (is Owly around?) agree to say that it's condescending on women to force them to wear the Islamic veil.[/quote]
I don't think that talking about "penguin outfit" for islamic women dress is really tolerant.

Feminist is a word that ought to be define.

I do think that any religion or thought system that impose a dress code is a problem.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]While I agree with you Mav I must also point out that in a State where Separation of Church and State exists, it also means that the state could care less what religion you practice and how you choose to express it. [/quote]
As long as the way you choose to express your religion doesn't contradict the secular law, I do agree.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]French schools denying muslim girls their CHOICE (contrary to popular belief many do it out of free will) to wear their "penguin" outfit is actually acting AGAINST this very principle and it is judging what religions it deems to accept or reject. [/quote]
That's the huge problem with this law.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Personally I don't see what the big hoopla is and by not letting them dress that way MORE girls are dressing that way.[/quote]
Again, the debate which occured in France last year underline also that point.
 
hi all,

let me tell you one thing, 7th son is right about Arabs and berbes,i'm moroccan i live in Morocco, and guess what, i am Arab and berber at the same time [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] don't get wrong,we live in good terms with moroccan jews .

We are cousins, we love and hate each others at the same time [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--] don't belive what you see nor what you read [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
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