Anti Semitism in France

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IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
I just watched a CBC documentary on the rising levels of anti-semitism in France and the effects it was having on the Jewish community there. It seems that many French Jews, having roots in France going back centuries, are scared for their surrvival.

The reporter cited incidents like when two school busses which served a primarily Jewish area were firebombed the state would not replace them; the parents had to pay for new ones. (thankfully, no children were inside them at the time)

they said that in the past 5 years nearly 2000 French Jews have left France, mostly for Montreal.

I was just wondering if anyone in or near France could elaborate on any of this
 
I wouldn't say that France has got higher levels of antisemitism than any other countries, although I've lost touch with the current situation, as I left the country many years ago. All I know is that France has a large amount of Arabs (all holding a French passport... something to do with the colonial history of the country) and that any problem in the Middle East with Israel creates trouble there too. I doubt that the French of non-North African origin are responsible for the incidents, but I may be wrong.
 
Yes, we've got to many racial problems here in France, and especially with antisemitism [!--emo&:(--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--].
And Maverick is right, but it's not only arabs. You've got many Russians, and North Africans (who aren't arabs) who are the authors of such acts.
Now I've got some stats about it, but I'm not sure if they are right, so take it for what it worth : Nearly 400 antisemit acts take place in France, and moslty in schools... in other words, it is horrible to know that some ppl still think like those who destroyed Europe, 60 years ago........

I might point out that not only the French Jewish community is attacked, but many North Africans (Algerians, Marocans, Tunisians) are the victims of racism for one reason : they don't look like french men/women, even if they are.

Btw, back to the subject, if they stop selling this book, "Mein Kampf" the situation will get better and better. But they won't, cause all they want is money ! [!--emo&:angry:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/mad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'mad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-7th Death of a 7th Death+Apr 17 2005, 08:08 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(7th Death of a 7th Death @ Apr 17 2005, 08:08 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]North Africans (who aren't arabs)
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Let me get this straight: Arabs are people from North Africa to the Middle-East. What you wrote corresponds to saying that people living in the Arctic aren't Eskimos.


As for Mein Kampf, I doubt it's a best-seller. Not enough people have read it, in fact, or they would have realised the extent of the dangerous stupidity of what our friend Adolf wrote... [!--emo&<_<--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/dry.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'dry.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Apr 17 2005, 09:20 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Apr 17 2005, 09:20 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let me get this straight: Arabs are people from North Africa to the Middle-East. What you wrote corresponds to saying that people living in the Arctic aren't Eskimos.
As for Mein Kampf, I doubt it's a best-seller. Not enough people have read it, in fact, or they would have realised the extent of the dangerous stupidity of what our friend Adolf wrote...    [!--emo&<_<--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/dry.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'dry.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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For the North Africans they are called "Berberes" in french. They are not arabs...to make it clearer, in North Africa, and only in the Maghreb, you have arabs, And "berberes", in a same land....

And for that book, it's a french historian who told me that. He used to work in NEL ("Nouvelles Editions Latines"), where they used to publish the "mein kampf" and sell it, but I'm not giving out his name on the net.

Now, I hope that would be clearer. [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Once again, you talk about things you don't have the first clue about. Your self-assured ignorance may be misleading for people of this board who don't know you. Could you stop making your fantasies pass as reality? Thanks!
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Apr 17 2005, 11:03 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Apr 17 2005, 11:03 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Once again, you talk about things you don't have the first clue about. Your self-assured ignorance may be misleading for people of this board who don't know you. Could you stop making your fantasies pass as reality? Thanks!
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Look Mav, I respect you, I respect your work, and what you say. But it's easy... I'm extremely well informed about this subject : as I'm french, I live in France, I have jewish freinds, and Algerians/Marocans etc.... As for these last two, some of them are arabs, and others aren't. And those who are not are arabs, are called Berbers. It's a population, and they live in the Maghreb, with the arabs, in a same country.
They have their own origins, language, symbols etc... You've got a well known movement from Morocco and Algeria, who defend these origins : "The Berber Tamazight Movement in Morocco and Algeria ". That's an ex. out of millions.

It's easy mate... why are you making a big deal out of it ?
 
What I don't like is people talking bollocks and making it pass as true things, that's all. Many other visitors read this site and they might think that what you're saying is true... which it isn't!


As for you being French, let me have my doubts. If you are, then I should get my Venusian passport any time this week! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Maverick, my dear mom is French.
And what am I saying wrong ? That in the Maghreb you've got 2 populations : the berbers, who lived thousands of years ago in this land, and arabs, who came a couple of centuries ago in this same land !! [!--emo&:HBD:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/birthday.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'birthday.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
So's mine [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
And my dad too, come to think of it [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
And this thread is rubbish anyway. Let the Jews be Jews, the Arabs be Arabs, and the racists be arseholes.

Thread closed. [!--emo&-_---][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sleep.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sleep.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Thread re-opened, because I think Maverick has let his long-standing dislike of 7th Death get the better of him. Frankly, this thread didn't become 'rubbish' until Mav started insulting 7th Death.

Mav, if you don't like this thread, then don't read it. But I think the discussion was interesting, and is worth continuing.

I agree with 7th Death's implied statement that membership in an ethnic group is determined by culture, language etc. Geographic location is irrelevant. It's true that most ethnic group are concentrated in one location, but that does not mean:
a - All persons living in that location belong to that group
b - All persons in that group live in that location

Not every person in North Africa is an Arab or a Berber. Not every person in the Arctic is an Eskimo. True, the majority of people may fit into one of those groups, but that is a coincidence. An Eskimo who moves to Brazil does not cease to be an Eskimo unless he deliberately gives up all his old customs.

As for Mein Kampf, I think Mav is right: while most people know of the books existence, few have read it. However, I disagree with the idea that it should not be published. It serves some purpose as a historical work. Furthermore, non-publishing sticks of censorship to me. I would propose instead that editions of Mein Kampf be published with essays from historians about its significance, and about how Hitler's vision led to evil. It should read as a cautionary tale, not as a Nazi bible.

I can't comment on anti-Semitism in France specifically, but in my opinion there seem to be two main reasons why the phenomenon exists in the first place:
a - Christian anti-Semitism came from the old idea that the Jews, as a group, were all to blame for murdering Jesus. Thankfully, this opinion (which was strongest in the middle ages) is now disavowed by most Christians.
b - Arab anti-Semitism is largely a result of the fact that the Jews (including ancient Hebrews) have been fighting with the Palestinians over the same piece of land for over 3000 years now. True, there are also important religious differences, but imagine if the ancient Hebrews had been willing to coexist with the ancient Palestinians and had maintained that attitude throughout history. I don't think the Middle East would be any more violent today than any other part of the world.

I also remember reading that France has a history of anti-Semitism going back several hundred years. I think there was a French king in the 16th or 17th century who tried to drive all Jews out of France. So this isn't a new phenomenon, just a new development.

I'd like to see other opinions on this matter, or facts from our historians. And from this point forth, can we keep the discussion civil please?
 
Mave, I hate to do this, but the dude is right on one account. In North Africa there are two main ethnic groups. There are both Arabs and Berbers.

They are both Muslim, but have distinct histories. The Arabs arrived there with the expansion of the Calphiates after Muhammad's death.

The Berbers have been there since at least the time of the Roman Empire. It's where we get the term "Barbarian" from (they sound the same in Latin apparently)

The Berbers live primarily in the Western part of North Africa, and the Arabs in the Eastern. They happen to mingle alot in Algeria, though, which is the source of most Muslim immigrants to France
 
What can I do against walking encyclopaedias? [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Apr 18 2005, 09:26 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Apr 18 2005, 09:26 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What can I do against walking encyclopaedias?  [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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hehe... it's ok [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Btw, Mav doesn't hate me !! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Apr 17 2005, 10:55 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Apr 17 2005, 10:55 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]As for Mein Kampf, I think Mav is right: while most people know of the books existence, few have read it. However, I disagree with the idea that it should not be published. It serves some purpose as a historical work. Furthermore, non-publishing sticks of censorship to me. I would propose instead that editions of Mein Kampf be published with essays from historians about its significance, and about how Hitler's vision led to evil. It should read as a cautionary tale, not as a Nazi bible.
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Let me say something about this:
I don't know about other countries, but fact is that in Germany, virtually every household has got a copy of Mein Kampf. I assume the story is similar in every household; in my case, my mother stole her mother's copy because she was showing-off with it (because it was a special edition to commemorate the 50th birthday of the "Führer").
A poll that was run a while ago that, although a high percentage of Germans own a copy of this book, only 0.02% of those people have actually read it.
Now, there is a reason to this. Mein Kampf is easily one of, if not theworst-written book in history. I tried to read it, but I was unable to; and this is not exclusively because the content disgusted me, but because it's simply unreadable. Grammar control is non-existant in this book, as is logic or sense of continuity.
I finally got a grasp of the books content when I visited a public reading of excerpts of it together with appropriate commentaries. Needless to say, the person who read it highlighted the worst-written passages of the thing.
To conclude this, in my opinion, there is no point in publishing the book, because nobody would read it anyway. It's a waste of paper, it always has been and always will be. If you want to know the truth about Hitler, go visit Auschwitz.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-7th Death of a 7th Death+Apr 17 2005, 06:08 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(7th Death of a 7th Death @ Apr 17 2005, 06:08 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Btw, back to the subject, if they stop selling this book, "Mein Kampf" the situation will get better and better. But they won't, cause all they want is money !  [!--emo&:angry:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/mad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'mad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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I assure you that censorship is not the answer to life's problems. Mein Kampf, while a stunning work of fiction and maniacal ravings, is also one of the most important literary works of the 20th Century. Almost everyone with some sort of secondary education knows this book exists. And those same people know that Hitler had serious problems. Anyone who reads Mein Kampf and takes it seriously was already a racist, and Hitler's anti-Semetic views have hardly influenced that person at all.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Apr 18 2005, 12:31 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Apr 18 2005, 12:31 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]To conclude this, in my opinion, there is no point in publishing the book, because nobody would read it anyway. It's a waste of paper, it always has been and always will be. If you want to know the truth about Hitler, go visit Auschwitz.
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I've read it, Perun. And I agree with you. It is possibly the worst written book of all time. It's nothing but inane ravings strung together - which makes sense, considering Hitler dictated it in speech style. Mein Kampf, however, has incredible value to those who study the Second World War, and not just historians. That includes psychologists and sociologists. While I don't think it needs to be printed on the same scale as Harry Potter, I do believe that it needs to be published. In small numbers, for the academic community. Mind you, there should be a big disclaimer:

"Warning! Don't take anything inside seriously! Hitler was a fucktard!"

How could you have a history course on the Holocaust without Mein Kampf? You can't. All the explaining in the world can't get across to a student how bollocked in the head Hitler was, but a few passages from the book displays it easily enough. And like I said above...it is one of the most important books of the 20th Century. We cannot discard it - to do so would be to discard our history.

(Because over here, very few people own the bloody thing).
 
I have to disagree with you Loosey.

I do think Mein Kampf is a valuable tool for historical and sociological research, and to ignore it is to ignore a part of history, however disgusting it may be. It has nothing to do with censorship, it's about human decency. Mein Kampf is a tool for inciting violence against fellow citizens, which is never justified under any circumstances.

BUT, I don't think it should be published for wide distribution to the general public. It can too easily be taken out of context by ill-informed readers, or used as a tool to justify all sorts of crazy shit.

It should be published, as you alluded, in an academic context with accompanying explanations and notes. Anyone truly desiring to study it for what it is - a historical document - will be thankful. Anyone stupid enough to take the text at face value wouldn't buy such an edition anyway.

It's like selling antique guns to every Tom, Dick, and Heinrich who wants one. Some of them are genuine gun collectors, but you'll find soon that one of them has a few antique bullets he wants to use on someone.
 
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