Aircraft

Forostar

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
I am not sure if some people are interested in military airplanes (or political choices of your country) but (in the near future) countries who have the money will have to choose between various (Next Generation) Fighters.

For a while it seemed the Netherlands would only go for the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) but last summer Saab came with their 85 Gripen NG. They made a good offer (and a comprehensive logistical support package including spares, training and simulators) and our parliament seemed interested but our government is likely to stick with the JSF. More precisely: The F-35, which descended from the X-35, the product of the JSF program.

But the acquisition of the JSF has its risks: when other countries will buy just a few JSFs or even none at all, then its cost price will certainly rise.

I am curious if you guys know if your country has made a choice when it comes to a next fighter, or if not: which candidates do they have in mind for the future?
 
I'm not familiar with the Gripen plane.  Do you have specifications on it?  I'm very familiar with the F-35, as you might imagine.
 
I sure can imagine that you are. :)

I just looked up some more specifications but of course I'm not sure how liable these figures are:

According to wiki: Data from Gripen International data, Gripen to Brazil data, Superfighters, Czech Republic page, Gripen weapons, Great Book, Fuel chart.

General characteristics
Crew: 1 (2 for JAS 39B/D)
Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 30.0 m² (323 ft²)
Empty weight: 5,700 kg (14,600 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (31,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Volvo Aero RM12 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 54 kN (12,100 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 80.5 kN (18,100 lbf)
Wheel track: 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in)
Length (two-seater): 14.8 m (48 ft 5 in)

Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,130 km/h, 1,320 mph)
Combat radius: 800 km (500 mi, 432 nmi)
Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi) with drop tanks
Service ceiling 15,240 m (50,000 ft)
Wing loading: 336 kg/m² (68.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.97

Armament
1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon 120 rounds
6 × Rb.74 (AIM-9) or Rb 98 (IRIS-T)
6 × Rb.99 (AIM-120) or MICA
4 x Rb.71 (Skyflash) or Meteor
4 x Rb.75
2 x KEPD.350
4 x GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb
4 x rocket pods 13.5 cm rockets
2 x Rbs.15F anti-ship missile
2 x Bk.90 cluster bomb
8 x Mark 82 bombs
1 x ALQ-TLS ECM pod

Current operators
Czech Republic / Czech Air Force: 14 Gripens on lease, including 2 two-seaters.

Hungary / Hungarian Air Force: 14 Gripens on a lease-and-buy arrangement, including 2 two-seaters (C/D versions). The final three aircraft were delivered in December 2007.

South Africa / South African Air Force: 26 aircraft ordered (down from 28), nine two-seater Ds and 17 single seat Cs. The first delivery, a two-seater, took place on 30 April 2008. As of 1 December 2008, five aircraft have been delivered.

Sweden / Swedish Air Force: 204 aircraft originally ordered, including 28 two-seaters (138 in service). Sweden leases 28 of the aircraft, including four two-seaters, to the Czech and Hungarian Air Forces. In 2007 the Swedish government decided that the future Swedish Air Force will deploy no more than 100 JAS 39C/D Gripen fighters. A program to upgrade 31 of the air force's JAS 39A/B fighters to JAS 39C/Ds was started.

United Kingdom / Empire Test Pilots' School: Under the current agreement, ETPS instructor pilots and students undergo simulator training with the Swedish Air Force, and go on to fly the two-seater Gripen at Saab in Linköping, in two training campaigns per year (spring and autumn). The agreement was renewed in 2008.

Orders
Thailand / The Royal Thai Air Force: Six aircraft, four of them two-seaters, have been ordered for delivery in 2011, with a potential additional six at a later date. The Gripens will replace the 12 F-5B/Es at Surat Thani Airbase.
 
The F-35 is a bit better than that, but not so much so.  The V/STOL capability is handy, but you're right - pricewise, what is it going to come down to?
 
It seems, according to their website, the RAF has become an active partner in the development of the new Joint Strike Fighter - so I guess they've made their choice. And these will eventually replace the Harriers - which is not surprising because they [Harriers] are a little on the slow side.
 
The Harriers were the dogs wotsists in the Falklands - so they have their deserved place in history. :D
 
@LC:

Hmm, well, in my country the The General Chamber of Auditors (an independent organ that audits the spending of the national government on its efficiency and legitimacy) says that our Ministery of Defense only gives a biased perspective on the advantages of the JSF. Great risks (costs) are not told.

Do you know which countries have already shown interest in the F-35? If I remember well the Netherlands were one of the few European countries.
 
USA, UK, Israel, India, Thailand, Netherlands, Australia all come to mind.
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Israel is far more interested in F-22, however USA government banned foreign sales. Much to L&M's dismay. India is hardly an option - their MMRCA contest receieved F-18 as American option, they are using superb Su-30MKI's as main fighters, developing training-role light fighter on their own, and participating in Russia's PAK-FA next-gen fighter program. I've never heard about open Thailandese talks about F-35, can you provide a link? I'm curious about that stuff. Australia wants the F-35B version, to cover some roles of their aging F-111 fleet.

Also, i don't expect a lot of European countries to operate JSF. Eastern Europe lands (read poorer) will go for Gripen (cheaper, good integration with all kinds of systems, great side-offers by main company), used planes with mid-life upgrades (Poland buying ex DDR MiG-29S), or air policing (Slovenia). The other ones, however, have their respective parts in EADS, and are operating/will operate Eurofighters, Tornados, etc.

High prices of the current recession might do severe damage on JSF. Altrough it's almost cutting edge plane, it's jack of all trades and master of none. It will do A2A, A2G, recon, mud moving, special ops, but nowhere as good at multirole as bigger planes like Su-27 derivates. Participation in program costs, and the unit is expensive. It would be a good fighter if mid-sized airforces could replace their 4th generation dedicated role planes with it, but it's cost is the key.

Regarding original question, Croatia operates ~ 12 MiG-21bis which were overhauled in last years (airframe and engine restoration), and has upgraded communication and navigation systems, but it's combat systems belong in '70s. There is a tender going on, introducing a new plane by 2011, but that deadline was deemed unrealistic due to current crisis, and the program is on halt. Contenders were F-16 Block 50 (mid '90s overhauled models, probably from US Territorials with Block50 upgrades), JAS-39, MiG-29M2, EF2000 and Mirage 2000. Mirage was dumped at once because it's not exactly something you would invest in for the next 25 years of operation or so, EF2000 was way off our allocated budget, so the first three are active.  

My favourites are both JAS-39 and MiG-29M2. JAS-39 is more modern, net-centric oriented plane with high emphasis on human interaction, sensory fusion and next-generation interfaces, while MiG-29M2 is much more powerful in main comparision aspects; aerodynamics, maneuverability, weapon systems. And, our airforce operated Russian models before so the transition would be less painful. I would ditch Falcon at once because it's an overhaul, Croatia has no access to top-level USA export avionics, standard Block50 upgrades are less good in general characteristics than JAS-39 or MiG-29M2 avionics.
 
My knowledge about military technology is reduced to some basics from the game Red Baron and the fact that Spitfires fought against ME109's. Am I qualified to join this conversation? :P
 
Perun said:
My knowledge about military technology is reduced to some basics from the game Red Baron and the fact that Spitfires fought against ME109's. Am I qualified to join this conversation? :P
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My own knowledge mainly comes from the songs Aces High and Tailgunner... :innocent:
 
Like the Fokker was not flown in WWII and that 10 ME109's can come out of the sun?


Funnily enough, I'm a complete pacifist but there is something intriguing about military aircraft - and the Eurofighter tops 'em all. Tanks and other such vehicles I’m not really interested. ;)
 
Military aircraft are generally the pinacle of aircraft technology, so its natural to be interested if you have any interest in technology or engineering.

Its a shame that they are seemingly heading more and more towards UAVs, robots are so soul-less.
I don't think I can like the JSF programme either, I love the Harrier too much, I don't care that it can't go supersonic, it looks fantastic and is one of those icons of aircraft.
Out of the latest aircraft, my favourite would have to be the Eurofighter Typhoon, but I'm biased. And to answer the question:
I know that the BAe was heavily involved with JSF so thats probably going to be the aircraft of choice to replace our Harrier GR9 squadrons and the Eurofighter is obviously the choice multirole fighter.
 
@Zare: what do you mean with Falcon is an overhaul? And why?

Here an article clarifying the current situation for the Netherlands (big business!), looking at the JSF:

JSF costs not transparent: audit office
Wednesday 04 February 2009

Parliament is not being properly informed about the cost of the new JSF fighter jet, the national audit office said on Wednesday.

The defence ministry is presenting a one-sided picture of the benefits of the JSF, major risks are being ignored and the budget has not been updated to current prices, the audit office report says.

For example, if other countries decide not to buy the new jet fighter, the price per aircraft will increase. The Netherlands has tentative orders for 85 aircraft, but the bill could be €360m higher than the orginal budget, the audit office said.

The economic affairs ministry and aerospace industry are currently embroiled in a row about dividing up the proceeds from contracts won by Dutch companies involved in developing the JSF.

Some 80 Dutch firms are involved in the US-led project to develop a successor to the F16 fighter jet.

But the industry says the government wants too big a percentage of its JSF-related turnover. A decision on solving that dispute is due in May, the Volkskrant says.

The cabinet and parliament must still give formal approval to plans to buy the JSF as a successor to the F-16 fighters. That decision is due to be taken in 2010.
 
what do you mean with Falcon is an overhaul? And why?
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Meaning they're an overhaul, as in USA wants to sell us used units from their National/Territorial/whatever Guard inventory. The airframes would receieve an overhaul to extend the working hours left in them, and the planes would receieve a standard Block50 avionics upgrade.

Therefore, we will be getting old restored planes. Not too old and not too much tampered with, but if we're getting new ones to cover our needs in time period between 2015 and 2040, they better be new.
 
Last autumn Norway decided that we will be purchasing the JSF as replacement for our F-16s when these are to be phased out a few years from now. There was some debate over whether we would get the JSF or the Swedish Gripen - but finally the military guys decided that the JSF was better suited for their purposes, and the government made the decision a bit earlier than expected (we were told that the decision would be announced around Christmas).

Of course the Socialist Left Party were opposed to it as they always want to get the one that does not come from the USA (or preferably nothing at all, many of them are pacifists), but they still voted with the rest of the government because every other party of the parliament were in favour of choosing the JSF ... and the Swedes seemed a little pissed off as well, but they calmed down quite quickly. That's why big decisions should be taken during winter, heated debate becomes less heated when it is cold  :D
 
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