A World History timeline according to Maiden

[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Jan 17 2006, 11:24 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Jan 17 2006, 11:24 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Right, I forgot to add Run Silent Run Deep.

As for the others, it's a matter of interpretation. Revelations is not tied to the Pharaonic Empire- it's all explained in the Commentary. The Last Supper is not a historical event. It may or may not have happened, but there is no evidence to prove either. As for Total Eclipse- yes, it could be about South America. It could also be about the Great Migration, about the Mongol Hordes, about the conquests of Mahmud of Ghazni- about any great cultural shift and conquest. I decided to keep with historical facts undoubtedly pointed to by Maiden (as such, I now also included the iron maiden itself; thanks anyway, Silky).
Good thinking, though. [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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Yay! Thanks, Perun (I think). What does passim mean? I'm fairly sure we've covered all of the major historical events, unless there's some B-sides that have historical significance/references? I still think you should include No More Lies as the Last Supper, but add a sidenote saying it's debatable whether it happened or not. Since most Christians believe Christ's story to be true (as in the fact that the gospels are a mostly accurate biography, as opposed to the Old Testament allegories), to us, it IS history.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Silky+Jan 17 2006, 09:24 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Silky @ Jan 17 2006, 09:24 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What does passim mean?[/quote]

pas·sim
adv.

Throughout or frequently; here and there. Used in textual annotation to indicate that something, such as a word or passage, occurs frequently in the work cited.

Since we are dealing with a band called Iron Maiden here, I think it's fair to use that instead of citing one song [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
For your reading pleasure, I have now included some footnotes [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Silky+Jan 17 2006, 01:24 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Silky @ Jan 17 2006, 01:24 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Since most Christians believe Christ's story to be true (as in the fact that the gospels are a mostly accurate biography, as opposed to the Old Testament allegories), to us, it IS history.
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There is a great deal more evidence to support the history told in the Old Testament than there is for the New Testament. Mind you, there's not very much for either. As a Xian, you may choose to take it as real history; to those of us with working brains, it's mostly mythology.

[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 17 2006, 03:11 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 17 2006, 03:11 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm talking about the NT, the OT (book of Revelations) was obviously in public circulation much sooner.  We know that the Last Supper took place because of the New Testament's historical reliability.  I have commented on this above so I don't feel the need to again.
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Revelations is in the New Testament, not the Old.

The "Last Supper", especially as described in the gospels, is a legend. The New Testament has almost zero historical reliability. Such a supper may have occured, but there is no evidence which proves it. Recall that the earliest accounts of this supper were written decades later, by people who almost certainly were not there. Would you normally trust a secondhand, old rumor? Of course not. So there's no reason to believe this one has any special authority.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Jan 18 2006, 12:57 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Jan 18 2006, 12:57 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] to those of us with working brains, it's mostly mythology.
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I respect your point of view on this religion, but please avoid such statements. Thanks [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Jan 18 2006, 12:57 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Jan 18 2006, 12:57 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The New Testament has almost zero historical reliability.
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I recall my old religion teacher saying that the NT is reliable for it's historic events, but wether Jesus was/is christ or not is a matter of oppinion.

And finally, to be really picky: Does not the word 'Xian' fall under the forum rules for grammar? [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-DeadlySinner+Jan 18 2006, 06:07 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(DeadlySinner @ Jan 18 2006, 06:07 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I recall my old religion teacher saying that the NT is reliable for it's historic events
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Don't trust everything people tell you. Get an independent opinion.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 06:15 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 06:15 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]as my RE teacher said.
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Here we go again...


And SMX was right to mention people who use their brains. Anyone with a minimum of critical sense and a bit of intelligence should consider anything written in the Bible with a *massive* pinch of salt.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 06:22 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 06:22 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]You don't have to be stupid to believe what's in the Bible.
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Maybe not, but it helps a lot.

[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 06:22 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 06:22 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]how come people like Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and Nicko Mc Brain believe in the good news?
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A Jew, a handicapped and a retard.

Einstein never mentioned being religious anyway, and his reading should have been the Torah in any case.
Hawkins is a prat with no sense of what life's about anyway. He's just a brilliant physicist, but has no idea of what's happening at the macromolecular level.
McBrain is a drummer... Enough said.

[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 06:22 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 06:22 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The choice is mine to believe or reject the bible, I accept it because I believe that ot was written with divine inspiration and it can hold moral lesons for us all.
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I'm fine with the moral lessons, but the divine inspiration is more than dubious to me.

I rest my case.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Pineapple Hunter+Jan 17 2006, 09:05 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Pineapple Hunter @ Jan 17 2006, 09:05 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, we only have secondary evidence.
The Bible doesn't have a date, the earliest copy is from the 1200's (I think. The one saying the Number Of The Beast was actually 616.)

Where's the proof the Last Supper took place?
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Well, the only proof is four historical documents that many millions of today's population believe. But if you want to be picky and argue that that doesn't prove the Last Supper existed, then where's the proof for any of the other historical references before the 18th Century? We have to trust our sources, and in regards to Jesus' life (not the miracles he performed), the New Testament is pretty accurate, I wish people would stop criticising its reliability just because it requires you to believe in something you can't prove with science or maths. And can we please leave such comments as 'He's a Jew' out of this? Einstein was one of the greatest thinkers of the last Century, as is Hawking, they are two of the people least likely to believe a supposed story, as scientists, and yet they do. Why? Because they place their trust in someone else. Can you not just accept that the Last Supper (or something very similar) probably took place around 2 millenium ago. Is it that hard to believe that a religious teacher ate his last meal before he was crucified by the Roman government with his pupils?

Thanks for the foonotes, Perun. An interesting read indeed. Maybe someone should make this thread pinned? And maybe prepare to lock it, as I sense a heated religious debate coming on.
*assembles religious arguments ready for atheist onslaught of criticism* [!--emo&:rolleyes:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/rolleyes.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'rolleyes.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Jan 18 2006, 06:30 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Jan 18 2006, 06:30 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]McBrain is a drummer... Enough said.
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True [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

However, refering to famous people believing in a religion is a bad argument. It comes back to the point of getting an own opinion of the matter. And by mentioning what my teacher said, I did not intend for it to be seen as my opinion. I take the bible with a pinch of salt, dispite the fact that I believe in it. As SMX said, most of it was written decades after the events taking place, and therefore it may not all be 100% accurate. My faith is based on what I have experienced with God myself, not what I've read or heard from others. The bible is written by people, perhaps with divine inspiration, but nevertheless, people make mistakes.

My point is that it is possible to have a working brain and believe in a religion.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-DeadlySinner+Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(DeadlySinner @ Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]True [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

However, refering to famous people believing in a religion is a bad argument. It comes back to the point of getting an own opinion of the matter. And by mentioning what my teacher said, I did not intend for it to be seen as my opinion. I take the bible with a pinch of salt, dispite the fact that I believe in it. As SMX said, most of it was written decades after the events taking place, and therefore it may not all be 100% accurate. My faith is based on what I have experienced with God myself, not what I've read or heard from others. The bible is written by people, perhaps with divine inspiration, but nevertheless, people make mistakes.

My point is that it is possible to have a working brain and believe in a religion.
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Good point.
I think it's important to emphasise some points.
1) The Bible was written by many people over many years. For a long time the tales were passed by word of mouth, which will cause innacurracies
2) Much of the Old Testament is affected by this, and quite a large part is metaphor (e.g. the Creation)
3) Many of the miracles in the New Testament are probably exagerrated slightly, or are misremembered. All that Christ did, walking on water, feeding the 5,000, is irrelevant, if you believe that he died for our sins and rose from the dead. And if you believe that, as I do, then the rest of the Bible could be about pink elephants dancing on the moon (well, not really [!--emo&:blush:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blush.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blush.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ).

My point is, for those cynics who disregard the Bible as a work of fiction, you cannot take it at face value. It requires repeated reading, discussion and always asking questions. Supposedly from people with no brains. Ah well, I think it's time we closed this topic. No-one's thought up of any more references, and we're just going to turn to religion, which could go in the General discussion board.
 
And nobody commented on my footnotes [!--emo&:(--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 09:30 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 09:30 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Slinky did:[/quote]

Indeed. Somehow it drowned in this.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I realise I was acting like a prick earlier with my religiious argument.  It's up to each individual what to believe in and how to interpretate the bible.
As Maverick said, storm in a teacup.
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No worries [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

[!--QuoteBegin-Ascendancy+Jan 18 2006, 09:32 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Ascendancy @ Jan 18 2006, 09:32 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Awwww poor Perun.  There there.

I just read them, they're interesting and helpful.

Is that OK?  [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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I was expecting more in the likes of:
"Well, Dr Perun, an interesting thesis in footnote 13, but I cannot agree with you on the whole, maybe you should read Oppenheimer's work on that matter."
[!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 17 2006, 05:11 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 17 2006, 05:11 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] We know that the Last Supper took place because of the New Testament's historical reliability.
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[!--emo&:blink:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
What about God knocking Paul off of his horse, appearing to him in the form of a blinding light and telling him to stop persecuting christians? Can we believe that happened on the basis of the "historical reliability" of the new testament?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 07:30 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 07:30 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Slinky did:

I realise I was acting like a prick earlier with my religiious argument.  It's up to each individual what to believe in and how to interpretate the bible.
As Maverick said, storm in a teacup.
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Slinky??? [!--emo&:blink:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--] I object to being referred to as a children's toy! [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I never thought I'd see this topic rejuvenated....

What about 'Brighter Than a Thousand Suns'?  I would place it at the date of the Trinity Test (16 July, 1945), when (I believe) that quotation was first used...unless anyone else has substanial objections.
 
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