A little list for your amusement

[!--QuoteBegin-infliction+Jul 25 2004, 08:02 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(infliction @ Jul 25 2004, 08:02 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Yeah, but the dichotomous relationship withstanding is that:
1) the US had abandoned the Kurds in the first Gulf invasion..... would they (not this group specifically but the population as a whole) trust the US again?  This is, of course, the US' own fault.  I do agree with you in a way, but that same maneuver has backfired before (ie: Iran vs. USSR).
2) many didn't denounce the dicatator until they had proof that he was captured (as far as I know.) [/quote]
The fact remains, is that we as a people have no right to interfere with the natural progression of other peoples. Shit like that ALWAYS causes other countries to get pissed at the bigger country. The bigger country usually has this "Holier than thou" attitude about it, though. Sounds familiar, aye?

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]A lamentable thought, but this used to be true.  It's is disgusting to see how so many take it all for granted.  I know what you mean..... I just think that this no longer applies to the US.[/quote]

Too true. I apologize. I hope that one day Americans learn to treasure their freedom again and not let presidents piss it away in bullshit laws like the Patriot Act.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What more can be done but to cut their penis off?!  They are being eduacated on it and there is ongoing study of/for a possible cure.  It's not as easy as that.  I think that it goes deeper into the condition of the nation and its infrastructure.[/quote]

Are they being educated? Are condoms in adequate supply? Do they know how to use them?

Basically, the question here isn't "What more can we do" it's "Is what we're doing now helping?"
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]a) helping the undeveloped and developing nations to do so in an environmentally-safe manner. We've learned not to pollute (as much); we have to make sure places like India, Indonesia, Bangladesh do the same.[/quote]

The problem with this is that it is often cheaper and easier for devoloping societies to progress in unenvironmentally-safe ways. An undeveloped society needs only to pick up a general historyy text to see how the West got to where it is. It is simple to follow the path where giant smokestacks and urban sprawls are signs of progress.
It would be great if we could help them out, but deep down, we (the collective West) are just not willing to pay the necessary costs. Take China, for example. In the mid 1980's, the central government promised to place a refridgerator in EVERY Chinese household in the country. (Easily 100,000,000 fridges, likely millions more!). They had the option of old-style freon fridges, or the then-new non freon fridges. The old ones could be produced for a fraction of the cost of the new environmentally-safe ones.

Many environmental groups begged Western nations to pressure China to, if not abandon the project completely, then at least use the newer, environmentally safe fridges. The Chinese government argued that the new fridges were too expensive without economic assistance. As you may have guessed, none was forthcoming. They went ahead with the freon-fridges and handed out nearly 50,000,000 before the project was abandoned.

There is an formula to calculate the environmental impact of a society.
(Impact) = (Population size) x (Affluence) x (level of Technology)
I=PAT
Of course, set values cannot be assigned to these, but it can be relative. Let us compare China and the USA, for example. China's population is astronomically high. The people generally are NOT affluent (most are rural peasants). They have, comparitively, a medium level of technology. This gives them a moderate Impact rating.
The USA, on the other hand, has a moderately large population, is extremely affluent, and has a high level of technological development. This means its impact per capita is much greater than China's.

I've strayed somewhat from the topic......damn. Basically: We have to become environmentally responsible before we can expect developing nations to do so.
 
Ahem. Most Western nations are getting there. It's only the USA that ignored Kyoto. Some nations (I'm thinking the Scandinavian ones here) are incredibly clean and efficient. Wind power, solar power, thermal energy are all in high use.

If we let those nations develop as the West did, we will be destroying this planet. It has to be a priority to help them to at least our level of environmental care, or else there won't be much left!

Imagine when every girl in China and India starts using spraycans with CFCs. We thought we had an ozone hole before?
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Are they being educated? Are condoms in adequate supply? Do they know how to use them?
[/quote]

Yes, I do believe that they are being educated on the virus and how it spreads - National Geographic had a segment on it one time. The people, however, don't want to listen and think that they are immune to it. They showed men/pimps saying that their women didn't have it and that all they had to do was to wash afterwards (or some silly belief like that). The men were adamant about their belief and were agitated when the workers (Doctors) told them otherwise. The women (prostitutes) said that they were careful and that they couldn't stop working because they needed the money (or whatever) to care for themselves and their families.

The rate of contracting the virus is higher for females (esp. young girls) because they are forced into prostitution at very young ages.
That is why I said that the fastest way to stop it at this point is to castrate. The inherent problem with this is the obvious....... no children to come from men without a set! The only upside to this solution (if it can count as such), is that there could be great choir formed with many castratti.....

I don't think that condoms are adequately supplied though..... and if they are, they may choose not to use them. You have to understand that many of these countries aren't open about such subjects and so it's hard to get them to go to a gathering of where info will be relayed. The doctors/volunteers have to go from perosn to person most of the time.

So, YES!!!! I do think that was being done is all that can be done.
 
Save marching in and taking it over and making them listen, eh?

Sorry, I had to...
 
haha [!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--] ..... smartass.

me thinks the boss is onto me now. [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[span style=\'color:red\']Hold on a second there.[/span]
The first sentence, from Infliction, was supposed to be a joke. And I intend it to stay a joke.
Here are a few points:
Sorry guys, but reading your posts, I really have the feeling that this is a talk between "western" guys a little bit to haughty and too condescendant towards "underdevelopped" people.
Do you really think "castration" would be an answer? Do you really think that people of Africa are not aware of the disease? Come on, tell me this is the hugest joke on this forum!
First, take the time to go in a family planning close to your home and ask how many abortions there is every year. Then ask about the legends about sex, intercourse and having babies. You'll be surprised how many people can believe in the stupidest things, like "impossible being pregnant on the first time" or "I kissed a guy, can I be pregnant".
What about you? Have you always used condoms? What do you know about it? What do you know about the transmission of the disease?
You have the luck to live in a developped country, where you have access to medias and informations. Where you have access to drugs and condoms. This is a LUCK.
Have you ever wondered about the cost of informations, sending doctors to explain, fighting the cultural beliefs. Of course, help is given by western countries. Do you know that the US government, by Bush own voice, agreed to pay for the help, under the condition that the countries helped will promote abstinence? Great answer to the spreading of the disease, isn't it?
Have you ever wondered about the cost of a condom compared to the monthly earnings. In Africa, a condom is expensive, very expensive. Some are given, of course. But now begin the technical problems. An old condom can break. A condom exposed to sunlight or heavy heat can break.
Have you ever wondered what it means, when you are leaving in a village far from any health center, to go to this health center. It can take a few days sometimes. So people are not going, they don't know they have the disease and it spreads...
A last word about castration, there was a campaign 40 or 50 years ago, very quiet, about "castration" for "insane" people. Men and women were taken into surgery to avoid the women to get pregnant. When it came out it was quite a scandal. Look for the papers' cuts.
Please, think about all that.
Thanks
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jul 25 2004, 06:10 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jul 25 2004, 06:10 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] I hope that one day Americans learn to treasure their freedom again and not let presidents piss it away in bullshit laws like the Patriot Act. [/quote]
To appreciate freedom, you have to experience the other side - ask any ex-convict. Unfortunately, most Americans haven't lost enough freedom to notice it yet.

As much publicity as there has been for the Patriot Act, it hasn't actually affected enough innocent lives yet to make TV-addicted, Fox-News-brainwashed middle America realize how insidiously evil it is. Before anything changes, there will have to be so many victims of "homeland security" that a majority of the population personally knows at least one such victim.

It's a sad fact that many people don't care about important issues until they've felt the effects. I care about the environment because I had the misfortune of living next to the Fox River in Wisconsin from 1989-1992, when it was among the most polluted in the US; the stench was so bad I couldn't stand it in the summer. I care about finding a cure for AIDS because I've lost one very close friend to the disease (and several other acquaintances) - watching a man die of AIDS, wasting away to nothing, looking like a walking corpse, is one of the most horrible things I've ever seen. I care about gay rights not because I'm gay, but because one of my best friends (a guy who literally saved my life more than once) is gay, and I've hated watching rednecks treat him like he's less than human because of it.

So I, with immense regret, expect the Patriot Act to be around for a while. The best hope for getting rid of it soon is electing Kerry in November, but even that won't do much as long as Satan's Minions - oops, as long as Republicans control the Congress.
 
[img src=\'http://fatali.servebeer.com/~ilkka/bush/Bush_adolf.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]

[!--emo&:lol:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lol[1].gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lol[1].gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Ahem. Most Western nations are getting there. It's only the USA that ignored Kyoto. Some nations (I'm thinking the Scandinavian ones here) are incredibly clean and efficient. Wind power, solar power, thermal energy are all in high use.[/quote]

That is true of places like Norway and Sweden, but there is a dark side to their success. The solar and thermal technologies they use cost enormous amounts of money to develop and deploy. Where do you think that money comes from? Selling oil to the polluting countries, of course! They can only afford to be environmentally friendly because they are profitting from other nations being not-so-friendly.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If we let those nations develop as the West did, we will be destroying this planet. It has to be a priority to help them to at least our level of environmental care, or else there won't be much left![/quote]

That brings up a question about morals. Do we have the right to dictate to other nations how they should develop? Do we have the right to say "I'm rich, but don't do what I did to get rich yourself!"
What happens if the developing nations don't listen to us? Do we invade? Maybe you and Bush have more in common than you care to believe. [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
The Duke is putting words in my mouth. If the developing countries want aid (and they do!) we can put environmentally friendly limitations on it. No different than limitations currently put on (my favourite is the one that countries getting bilateral aid from the US have to sign - no suing them in World Court!).
 
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