❤ Dating Advice For MaidenFans Thread ❤
- Thread starter Night Prowler
- Start date
Saapanael
Ancient Mariner
A Serbian Film? Probably not good for date night. Wouldn't recommend Cannibal Holocaust either, although...
...she might cry and I can comfort her
Guys, I found spycam footage of NP's date night:
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Yeh, I heard they didn't stay in, they actually went to the cinema...
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
New name, same shit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre
mtmccox
Ancient Mariner
I was not here for the whole Me too VS. Incel discussion .. just read it all now, and learned some new stuff. For instance I had no idea about incel terrorism being a thing.
Not sure if I should resurrect the discussion, but I have only a few bits from my POV.
1) Let's say there are things that I would not do to a girl I don't know - things like catcalling, obvious over-engaging in a girl that I have no business talking to, or giving some hyperbole compliment on her looks. I don't do that, because I feel it is not my way, not because I was told by a girl that it is uncomfortable for her. I know it's uncomfortable for them, but the reason I do not do those things comes from inside of me. A person who doesn't have this "inner rule" - he needs a movement like Me too to tell him what is wrong from a woman's point of view, but a guy who has some basic empathy should feel on his own, what is acceptable and what is too much.
Another thing. I live in central Europe now .. but if I go over a few countries to the southwest, this kind of behaviour is rather common there. My girlfriend studied in Spain for about 2 years, she said she was hit on constantly but never she sounded like this caused her discomfort. I will ask her after work for more details. I have tried to google now how much, let's say, Italian women mind being cat-called - (I can't really consider a couple blogposts being a measuring stick) but I have found that plenty of them do mind.
So this is my frank question - can we universally define what is inside limits, and what is too much? If in culture A 75% of people are ok with receiving a compliment and in culture B the same compliment is uncomfortable for 75% of the people, that just makes it ok for people in culture A, but wrong for B. Who can dictate the rules then, shouldn't it all be considered in context?
And even inside one culture, one person can regard a smile their way harrassment, another will say it's fine or pleasant. Who then will create an official table defining ok moves and bad moves? Is a compliment on the wristwatch ok, but compliment on the skirt wrong, because I have glanced on thy legs? Can I smile at my colleague while saying good morning?
Mind that I haven't actually dealt with these issues in here, I know the discussion is a bit more prominent in the US, so I am just letting my mind wander .. based on things I have heard or read. I don't know which side to take here, just thinking out loud, using the keyboard.
On one hand I would like to argue that all the behaviour should be judged in a context but, but then again, if I say this - then someone can argue that it is fine to abuse women in some islamic countries only because "most people are used to it there". Which is despicable and horrifying. So I just don't know.
2) I kind of feel that in the end it comes down to - if you plan to shoot someone over your personal feeling, you are a shit person to begin with. And I don' think that listening to dating gurus, pick up masters, or creating depressed virgin groups can change this basic principle inside you - you just don't kill a man. You don't approve of rape or aggression, because those are wrong things to do, no matter what angle you see them from. It's like if someone claims a videogame can make a kid kill someone, I would say there was sometwhing wrong with the kid in the first place.
Not sure if I should resurrect the discussion, but I have only a few bits from my POV.
1) Let's say there are things that I would not do to a girl I don't know - things like catcalling, obvious over-engaging in a girl that I have no business talking to, or giving some hyperbole compliment on her looks. I don't do that, because I feel it is not my way, not because I was told by a girl that it is uncomfortable for her. I know it's uncomfortable for them, but the reason I do not do those things comes from inside of me. A person who doesn't have this "inner rule" - he needs a movement like Me too to tell him what is wrong from a woman's point of view, but a guy who has some basic empathy should feel on his own, what is acceptable and what is too much.
Another thing. I live in central Europe now .. but if I go over a few countries to the southwest, this kind of behaviour is rather common there. My girlfriend studied in Spain for about 2 years, she said she was hit on constantly but never she sounded like this caused her discomfort. I will ask her after work for more details. I have tried to google now how much, let's say, Italian women mind being cat-called - (I can't really consider a couple blogposts being a measuring stick) but I have found that plenty of them do mind.
So this is my frank question - can we universally define what is inside limits, and what is too much? If in culture A 75% of people are ok with receiving a compliment and in culture B the same compliment is uncomfortable for 75% of the people, that just makes it ok for people in culture A, but wrong for B. Who can dictate the rules then, shouldn't it all be considered in context?
And even inside one culture, one person can regard a smile their way harrassment, another will say it's fine or pleasant. Who then will create an official table defining ok moves and bad moves? Is a compliment on the wristwatch ok, but compliment on the skirt wrong, because I have glanced on thy legs? Can I smile at my colleague while saying good morning?
Mind that I haven't actually dealt with these issues in here, I know the discussion is a bit more prominent in the US, so I am just letting my mind wander .. based on things I have heard or read. I don't know which side to take here, just thinking out loud, using the keyboard.
On one hand I would like to argue that all the behaviour should be judged in a context but, but then again, if I say this - then someone can argue that it is fine to abuse women in some islamic countries only because "most people are used to it there". Which is despicable and horrifying. So I just don't know.
2) I kind of feel that in the end it comes down to - if you plan to shoot someone over your personal feeling, you are a shit person to begin with. And I don' think that listening to dating gurus, pick up masters, or creating depressed virgin groups can change this basic principle inside you - you just don't kill a man. You don't approve of rape or aggression, because those are wrong things to do, no matter what angle you see them from. It's like if someone claims a videogame can make a kid kill someone, I would say there was sometwhing wrong with the kid in the first place.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
You have members of a generation that is having a widespread social isolation, depression and anxiety epidemic. I know some here were skeptical of this being the case, but I don't think so, and many psychologists also don't think so. They are confined to their electronic devices and have difficulties with socializing.
This obviously affects courtship. Socially isolated and depressed men who struggle with socialization end up having problems with courtship, which drives them to desperation. They then look towards online communities supposedly designed to save them (Pickup artists), or ones where they can find comraderie among other desperate men and feed each other pseudophilosophy that affirms and legitimizes their loserdom (Incel communities or MGTOW communities - One may argue they are the same thing). Some cunning men profit off the desperation of said people and drive them towards violent ideas.
Incels don't just fall out of the sky. They have a path to inceldom that begins with issues that are faced by many young men out there, in increasing numbers these days. This sentiment got misconstrued multiple times here as me advocating for the accommodation of incels. Of course you can't accommodate incels that are far gone. That was never my point. My point was to examine the reasons why those people end up where they end up. This is an issue with multiple angles, and since those angles weren't the point from which the discussion began, they weren't central to the arguments I made. This may have been interpreted as me glossing over such angles, but I believe many of those angles simply go without saying. Entitlement of sex, ideas and behaviors that do clearly constitute sexual objectification, there being societies in which women's status continues to be deemed as the property of their father or husband, or ones in which this sentiment has lingering effects and so on. The Gen Z and young Millennial specific mental health angle, and its consideration in relation to the MeToo movement (or some prominent third-wave feminist positions) was the one I talked about, because I felt like it was relevant to the observation made by Saap.
These are touchy subjects and I do understand the concern in regard to such considerations being expressed possibly undermining the rightful causes of the MeToo movement. But I believe it's the opposite. I believe not pointing out unjust cases, not just from a legal standpoint but from an opinion standpoint, the effects such unjust cases may have on men, and so on does more harm to the MeToo movement than anything else. Such cases being glossed over muddies the waters and arms the aforementioned cunning men in their efforts to indoctrinate more young men who find themselves desperate. It is working, the size of these communities are much larger than I suspect people here would think. Consider that these are very politically charged groups, and that their sentiments, reasonings and behaviors bleed into other political issues. The alt-right and the Manosphere have very organic ties and have created a sense of comraderie under the proverbial "Red Pill" title.
I do realize that I have been called out for my estimations of what can objectively be called regular courtship, sexual harassment or sexual abuse specifically with the notion of there not being an objective estimation and that it varies from women to women. I believe this constitutes moral relativism. When moral relativism starts defining social norms, it becomes a problem. If certain women complained of a smile constituting sexual harassment, and we as a society judged that it did constitute sexual harassment because said women felt like it constituted sexual harassment, you'll have situation where people are completely paranoid about making courtship advances. Adding to that the original point of Gen Z and young Millennials already having problems socializing and already having high levels of anxiety compared to previous generations, I think this may be recipe for disaster.
I do know that things aren't this bad for the time being, but it is concerning. You may think it's somewhat paranoid, but you can just chalk that up to me being a member of Gen Z who has OCD and has socialization problems himself.
Allow me to end this tl;dr post by expressing my disappointment that I have been positioned like a defender of incels against MeToo, when in reality my concerns are based on incels gaining more prominence and increasing the magnitude of the issues MeToo aims to fight against.
This obviously affects courtship. Socially isolated and depressed men who struggle with socialization end up having problems with courtship, which drives them to desperation. They then look towards online communities supposedly designed to save them (Pickup artists), or ones where they can find comraderie among other desperate men and feed each other pseudophilosophy that affirms and legitimizes their loserdom (Incel communities or MGTOW communities - One may argue they are the same thing). Some cunning men profit off the desperation of said people and drive them towards violent ideas.
Incels don't just fall out of the sky. They have a path to inceldom that begins with issues that are faced by many young men out there, in increasing numbers these days. This sentiment got misconstrued multiple times here as me advocating for the accommodation of incels. Of course you can't accommodate incels that are far gone. That was never my point. My point was to examine the reasons why those people end up where they end up. This is an issue with multiple angles, and since those angles weren't the point from which the discussion began, they weren't central to the arguments I made. This may have been interpreted as me glossing over such angles, but I believe many of those angles simply go without saying. Entitlement of sex, ideas and behaviors that do clearly constitute sexual objectification, there being societies in which women's status continues to be deemed as the property of their father or husband, or ones in which this sentiment has lingering effects and so on. The Gen Z and young Millennial specific mental health angle, and its consideration in relation to the MeToo movement (or some prominent third-wave feminist positions) was the one I talked about, because I felt like it was relevant to the observation made by Saap.
These are touchy subjects and I do understand the concern in regard to such considerations being expressed possibly undermining the rightful causes of the MeToo movement. But I believe it's the opposite. I believe not pointing out unjust cases, not just from a legal standpoint but from an opinion standpoint, the effects such unjust cases may have on men, and so on does more harm to the MeToo movement than anything else. Such cases being glossed over muddies the waters and arms the aforementioned cunning men in their efforts to indoctrinate more young men who find themselves desperate. It is working, the size of these communities are much larger than I suspect people here would think. Consider that these are very politically charged groups, and that their sentiments, reasonings and behaviors bleed into other political issues. The alt-right and the Manosphere have very organic ties and have created a sense of comraderie under the proverbial "Red Pill" title.
I do realize that I have been called out for my estimations of what can objectively be called regular courtship, sexual harassment or sexual abuse specifically with the notion of there not being an objective estimation and that it varies from women to women. I believe this constitutes moral relativism. When moral relativism starts defining social norms, it becomes a problem. If certain women complained of a smile constituting sexual harassment, and we as a society judged that it did constitute sexual harassment because said women felt like it constituted sexual harassment, you'll have situation where people are completely paranoid about making courtship advances. Adding to that the original point of Gen Z and young Millennials already having problems socializing and already having high levels of anxiety compared to previous generations, I think this may be recipe for disaster.
I do know that things aren't this bad for the time being, but it is concerning. You may think it's somewhat paranoid, but you can just chalk that up to me being a member of Gen Z who has OCD and has socialization problems himself.
Allow me to end this tl;dr post by expressing my disappointment that I have been positioned like a defender of incels against MeToo, when in reality my concerns are based on incels gaining more prominence and increasing the magnitude of the issues MeToo aims to fight against.
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mtmccox
Ancient Mariner
Just for the record, Flash, I did not see you as the defender of that side, I see your points are coming from a concern that also arises in my mind when I hear about men being accused of things that in my workplace/social circle would be considered as merely a part of warm human communication. That is why I only drafted some questions that arise in my head - mostly about what/who is the mirror that can be used to evaluate our possible behaviour to opposite sex. My post was not aimed against you or the points you brought up. And I understand perfectly that you were not trying to accomodate or justify those who acted on their "inner hatred", just to make myself clear. The things I said some societies objectifying women were just me going on with the train of thought.
MGTOW is another thing I've never heard about. For me it is strange in this way - from the basic idea I have from the wiki article it looks like the members solve their issue in a way completely opposite from the logic. Like when I have trouble and frustrations with people, I should try and open up more (yes, even to a possible change of oneself), rather than closing inside or building barriers and communities. That would be an advice I would give to a friend who would tell me he has trouble meeting girls. I see this as a bit of "village wisdom" as we say in czech, but this makes sense in my head.
I am not that good with words but this is basically what I was trying to say in my post above.
About social media - I have been thinking about this the few times i tried Tinder in the past. Even when getting a match, being initially satisfied with it, after some moments I just did not have the drive, the motivation to pursue the girl forward, because I did not get any feeling from the experience. When you meet someone in person, you get multiple channels of absorbing their emotions, voice, body language, every little detail of their being. A whole rainbow of magic happens when you start a conversation that "fires the nerve endings", or some teasing/joking/flirting IRL. On internet/social media I saw only a picture, and even though the girl is pretty and nothing was wrong with her profile/answers, after a while I just had zero feeling abou the whole thing. Maybe it is because I was not a fuckbuddy kind, so I was not the target user.
To me hobby groups/social circles is the natural way to go. So I as well would not be happy if I saw guys afraid to speak to/compliment a girl only because of fear of unfair accusation.
MGTOW is another thing I've never heard about. For me it is strange in this way - from the basic idea I have from the wiki article it looks like the members solve their issue in a way completely opposite from the logic. Like when I have trouble and frustrations with people, I should try and open up more (yes, even to a possible change of oneself), rather than closing inside or building barriers and communities. That would be an advice I would give to a friend who would tell me he has trouble meeting girls. I see this as a bit of "village wisdom" as we say in czech, but this makes sense in my head.
I am not that good with words but this is basically what I was trying to say in my post above.
About social media - I have been thinking about this the few times i tried Tinder in the past. Even when getting a match, being initially satisfied with it, after some moments I just did not have the drive, the motivation to pursue the girl forward, because I did not get any feeling from the experience. When you meet someone in person, you get multiple channels of absorbing their emotions, voice, body language, every little detail of their being. A whole rainbow of magic happens when you start a conversation that "fires the nerve endings", or some teasing/joking/flirting IRL. On internet/social media I saw only a picture, and even though the girl is pretty and nothing was wrong with her profile/answers, after a while I just had zero feeling abou the whole thing. Maybe it is because I was not a fuckbuddy kind, so I was not the target user.
To me hobby groups/social circles is the natural way to go. So I as well would not be happy if I saw guys afraid to speak to/compliment a girl only because of fear of unfair accusation.
Saapanael
Ancient Mariner
This is how I feel about using Tinder.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Incels...oh boy.
I think the problem is exploration of the outside world through the internet. You need to go out and you need to do it preferably before 16 and with real people. You don't want to surge into puberty without having any clue whatsoever. Again it's better late than never but it will get harder and harder to do so.
I think the problem is exploration of the outside world through the internet. You need to go out and you need to do it preferably before 16 and with real people. You don't want to surge into puberty without having any clue whatsoever. Again it's better late than never but it will get harder and harder to do so.
SixesAlltheway
Ancient Mariner
Bingo. Upbringing from your parents and how you learn to treat and interact with other people is a huge part of it.
Magnus
currently discounted
Objectivization
This co-worker is flirting with me, or at least that's what my other co-workers are telling me. Also she talks about me how I'm super awesome when I'm not there and texted me stuff like "HEY DO YOU WANNA HANG OUT SOMETIME" and "You're lovely 
". I dunno how to respond to that. She has a boyfriend and also I'm not interested in dating co-workers, especially because I'm her superior at work.
". I dunno how to respond to that. She has a boyfriend and also I'm not interested in dating co-workers, especially because I'm her superior at work.