USA Politics

More and more Democratic Socialists are winning primaries. Centrism has failed. People want to move further to the left. Red scare propaganda is childish and silly. Bring up actual arguments instead of "sHe PrAiSeD cOmMuNiStS!?!?!?!?!?!".

I'm sorry, but so what? We have literal fascists in ruling positions and not a single elected communist in power.
Anyone who tries to claim both sides are the same is a goddamn moron who has lost all touch with reality.

Also, abolishing police does not mean what you think it does Azas. Inform yourself and read up on some of these positions instead of being constantly outraged because you fell once again for the stupidest twitter scams. Time to get a grip on reality, buddy. If you want to discuss a position quote the exact wording and let us analyze it. Don't post random twitter clips or tweets by propagandists. Post the exact quote. You simply saying "they are loons!!!" because you aren't educated enough to understand their actual words is not an argument. There's no point to that. If you want to talk politics be specific and post exactly what was said, with the given context behind these positions.

But, just like every single time I've asked the centrists and conservatives to be specific in their claims, nothing will follow. It's never about discussing positions. It's just outrage farming and once there's the slightest pushback, once people actually ask to discuss an actual position we're met with silence. Or weird AI-generated rants that barely address the point and then go full-on whataboutism to give the illusion of having made a valid point.
 
Vaenyr said:
Also, abolishing police does not mean what you think it does Azas. Inform yourself and read up on some of these positions instead of being constantly outraged because you fell once again for the stupidest twitter scams. Time to get a grip on reality, buddy. If you want to discuss a position quote the exact wording and let us analyze it. Don't post random twitter clips or tweets by propagandists. Post the exact quote. You simply saying "they are loons!!!" because you aren't educated enough to understand their actual words is not an argument. There's no point to that. If you want to talk politics be specific and post exactly what was said, with the given context behind these positions.
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Actually in this case the woman in question seems to actually want to totally abolish not only the police but the prison system as well, not to mention all borders for good measure:

'A world without borders—just like a world without prisons or police—is possible, necessary, and the only moral way forward'

'Yes, literally, abolish the border'

“F**k you. We’re gonna defund and abolish. You don’t get to water down our movements.”

“No. It means ending policing full stop. Period. No more police at all ever,”

All of these quotes, as well as many other extreme and questionable statements, are from a now deleted twitter account but can be sourced via the web archive links in the below CNN article:

 
UpTheIrons said:
Actually in this case the woman in question seems to actually want to totally abolish not only the police but the prison system as well, not to mention all borders for good measure:

'A world without borders—just like a world without prisons or police—is possible, necessary, and the only moral way forward'

'Yes, literally, abolish the border'

“F**k you. We’re gonna defund and abolish. You don’t get to water down our movements.”

“No. It means ending policing full stop. Period. No more police at all ever,”

All of these quotes, as well as many other extreme and questionable statements, are from a now deleted twitter account but can be sourced via the web archive links in the below CNN article:

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Those were twitter hot takes. Here's her actual position on the matter:

So, you know, for prison abolitionists, I think a lot of folks misunderstand what that vision of the world actually is. And it is one that actually centers this question of harm. At the heart of what we're asking is: What, why is it that there is so much harm in our society?

And how do we, A, prevent it, and B, deal with it when it happens. And as someone who has worked with folks who have been incarcerated, who have felt ostracized, for lack of a better term, by so many facets of our society for being poor, for being Black, for being Latino. I work at a public defender's office where most of our clients are incredibly poor Black and brown New Yorkers. And for so many, the crimes that they're being indicted for are crimes of poverty, or the effects of poverty.

And when I think about this question of harm, I think how do we create a society where people feel so safe that they don't need to pick up the phone and call the police. And when harm does happen, how do we actually create repair? Because what we have right now is a system in whenever harm happens, there's more harm being perpetrated, not only on the folks who engaged in the harm, but also on the victims of the harm. I'm someone who has actually been the victim of crimes, of violence, and gone to the police as a young person thinking, doing the thing that society told me to do, and all that did was traumatize me more.

Josh Greenman

But what do you do to the murderer though? Or what do you do—

Darializa Avila Chevalier

But and so I'm trying to answer the question, which is that— What we do is that we then put people behind bars in incredibly traumatizing conditions in a context where they cannot actually reflect on the harm that they caused or feel any remorse on that because they're just trying to survive inside, and they're being re-traumatized day after day after day while inside. And then when they're released, they're bringing that trauma back to our community, and that is having a reverberating effect on everyone in our society. And so as an abolitionist, you know, when you think about this question of harm, we have to think not only about interrupting that cycle of harm but also preventing it from the onset. And part of that has to do with thinking about, what are the systems that actually reduce that harm from happening in the first place?

And I have spoken to clients at public defender's office where you hear the larger story of what happened, and it was folks who were under so much stress from the conditions that they were facing that they lashed out in a way that was out of character, in ways that they deeply regret. They don't have a way to actually repair now because they don't have a pathway towards that. You see folks who just need access to medical care. I had, at one of the jobs I had many years ago, a client who would actually intentionally get arrested because being on Rikers was the only way that he could get access to his bipolar medication. And this is a reflection of a larger failure of our system to actually protect our people from harm, to think about harm in a more expansive way, and actually address it meaningfully and effectively.

Josh Greenman

But, did we answer what happens to the murderer? Do you not incarcerate the murderer?

Darializa Avila Chevalier

You know, again, I'm talking about this question between the distance between the world we want to see and the world that we're at. And tomorrow, you know, when that instance happens, that [incarceration] is what's going to happen, right? And I don't think anyone in society questions that that's what's going to happen.

Ben Smith

But can you get a little less abstract? Like she was watching a jury vote on the guy's guilty, should he be sentenced or not?

Darializa Avila Chevalier

Well, this is what I'm saying is that when that happens, and as someone who has sat in so many courtrooms, to me, all of that is tragic. The fact that the murder happened is tragic. The fact that there was a circumstance in which that could even come to pass is tragic, and all of that is a reflection of systems that allowed that circumstance to be possible. And so, you know, I have always focused my attention on how do we create systems where that's not even the possibility.
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Many of the articles written about her in the last week were straight-up making shit up and lying about her positions.

As for the thing about borders: if we're talking in the abstract, there's nothing wrong with her statement. We made borders up. Those are arbitrary lines. They move constantly, Greece for example has different borders a hundred years ago, different borders the century before, and so on. They aren't something that inherently exists, they are simply something we decided on, and started to wage wars to change them. So, criticizing her for "she's against borders!" is the nothingest of nothing burgers lol

The president of the United States is a child rapist. Fascists are in power. They have murdered innocent civilians. They are trying to take away the rights of various minorities. They are trying to create a christofascist state. They are actively supporting a genocidal ethnic cleansing campaign. They are trying to take healthcare of suffering people away.

People are becoming poorer and going from crisis to crisis, while the world's richest man became a trillionaire posting Nazi rhetoric and memes on his shitty social media website. The planet is boiling due to our actions, people are dying, even more are getting displaced and forced to flee. The toddler in chief is starting wars and manipulating markets because he only cares about money.

All that, and I'm supposed to care about ONE (1) demsoc shitposting in twitter a few years ago?

Again: One side has nazi child rapists, yet somehow the center only cares to attack leftwards. This entire conversation is deeply unserious and a waste of time. It's outrage farming, pure and simple.
 
He asked for quotes, and UpTheIrons provided the exact quotes. And then they were simply downplayed, as if they didn't matter at all.

Those Twitter hot takes can reveal quite a lot about a person and their worldview. Apparently, it's perfectly acceptable to criticize Trump's unhinged rants, but when someone on the left posts something equally moronic, suddenly it's dismissed as "just heat-of-the-moment stuff."

As for the "Nazis in power" argument: how many times have I criticized Trump? Plenty. What you're doing now is whataboutism. The fact that there are loons on the right in positions of power is not a justification for ignoring the loons on the left. One form of extremism can easily fuel another.

These people are on the far-left wing of the Democratic Party, and I don't think it's an irrelevant issue. It tells us something about the direction some people within the party would like to take it. It reveals certain ideas that may gain influence or be pushed more aggressively in the future.

I agree on one point only: the danger from the far right is more immediate, more of a "here and now" problem, whereas the danger from the far left feels more like a time bomb with a delayed fuse.

And let me be clear: criticizing the far left does not mean I support the far right. Both extremes are utter crap.
 
Azas said:
He asked for quotes, and UpTheIrons provided the exact quotes. And then they were simply downplayed, as if they didn't matter at all.
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I gave her very detailed answer to these topics, instead of cherry-picked, out of context tweets. Do you honestly not understand the difference between those?

Azas said:
Those Twitter hot takes can reveal quite a lot about a person and their worldview. Apparently, it's perfectly acceptable to criticize Trump's unhinged rants, but when someone on the left posts something equally moronic, suddenly it's dismissed as "just heat-of-the-moment stuff."
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Trump is the president of the United States. You are trying to tak shit about a person who has not been elected yet, while simultaneously clearly having no idea about her actual positions.

Azas said:
As for the "Nazis in power" argument: how many times have I criticized Trump? Plenty. What you're doing now is whataboutism. The fact that there are loons on the right in positions of power is not a justification for ignoring the loons on the left. One form of extremism can easily fuel another.
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Not only is it not whataboutism to call out bad faith both sidesing, you routinely take every single criticism that people lob at fascists and try to attack the left and the West. Seriously, you need to touch grass because you have a pathological need to draw false equivalences between sides that are very clearly not the same. I'll repeat: there's not a single elected communist in power. There are multiple fascists. The sides aren't anywhere close to being the same

Just because you got baited by stupid twitter outrage farms (once again!) doesn't mean that what she said is equal to what the entire right wing has been spewing for the past decade. I posted her detailed positions, how about you discuss those? But that's too much effort, since you're obviously not interested in good faith discussion.

Azas said:
These people are on the far-left wing of the Democratic Party, and I don't think it's an irrelevant issue. It tells us something about the direction some people within the party would like to take it. It reveals certain ideas that may gain influence or be pushed more aggressively in the future.
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The demsocs winning the primary tells us one thing: The people clearly voted for those ideas and are supporting them. Apparently there's a hunger for such change. That's the thing with democracy, you won't always like the results.
I mean, we can look at Mamdani and what he's done for New York so far. He's the new template for the left, he's incredibly popular, and he's influencing elections. Hell, even Trump loves the guy lol. We can talk about his policies, instead of nebulous red scare idiocy.

Azas said:
I agree on one point only: the danger from the far right is more immediate, more of a "here and now" problem, whereas the danger from the far left feels more like a time bomb with a delayed fuse.
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That's utter bullshit and beyond naive. How many governments in Europe are "far left"? Exactly, not a single one. How many world-wide? How many of the Western democracies are anywhere close to electing "far left" governments? Just sayit "it's gonna happen anytime soon you guys and it's gonna be the worst thing evah!" doesn't make it any more real or serious. It's pretty much on the same level as doomsday prophets. I'd rather live in the real world and engage with what's actually happening, rather than these disingenuous scaretales.

Azas said:
And let me be clear: criticizing the far left does not mean I support the far right. Both extremes are utter crap.
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You are free to believing both are crap. One is objectively orders of magnitude worse and more dangerous than the other. Again, feel free to quote specific positions and arguments and we can discuss them. But you won't be doing that, just as you didn't do it the last time I asked you. That says everything we need to know. You once again got baited by your social media consumption into going after the left, you are constantly indirectly defending far-right figures and fascists, and you are utterly incapable of not tying everything to the "far left" and the "Western elites". And most of the time that is pure whataboutism.

If you have something specific to discuss, quote the exact passages and let's discuss them. Otherwise drop this childish act and all the concern trolling.
 
Azas said:
It tells us something about the direction some people within the party would like to take it. It reveals certain ideas that may gain influence or be pushed more aggressively in the future.

I agree on one point only: the danger from the far right is more immediate, more of a "here and now" problem, whereas the danger from the far left feels more like a time bomb with a delayed fuse.
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I wouldnt worry. The Dems literally spend all of their time absolutely shitting on the left wing of the party.

You can't even get the centrists to fight for something as basic and obvious as public healthcare or a living wage.
 
Trevoire said:
I wouldnt worry. The Dems literally spend all of their time absolutely shitting on the left wing of the party.

You can't even get the centrists to fight for something as basic and obvious as public healthcare or a living wage.
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Personally, I can't understand how the US still doesn't have some kind of public healthcare system, more or less like the ones we have in Europe.

You'd think introducing something like that would win a party a huge number of votes. So clearly there are powerful forces behind the scenes - lobbying, vested (!) interests, or something else entirely.
 
Vaenyr said:
More and more Democratic Socialists are winning primaries. Centrism has failed. People want to move further to the left. Red scare propaganda is childish and silly. Bring up actual arguments instead of "sHe PrAiSeD cOmMuNiStS!?!?!?!?!?!".

I'm sorry, but so what? We have literal fascists in ruling positions and not a single elected communist in power.
Anyone who tries to claim both sides are the same is a goddamn moron who has lost all touch with reality.

Also, abolishing police does not mean what you think it does Azas. Inform yourself and read up on some of these positions instead of being constantly outraged because you fell once again for the stupidest twitter scams. Time to get a grip on reality, buddy. If you want to discuss a position quote the exact wording and let us analyze it. Don't post random twitter clips or tweets by propagandists. Post the exact quote. You simply saying "they are loons!!!" because you aren't educated enough to understand their actual words is not an argument. There's no point to that. If you want to talk politics be specific and post exactly what was said, with the given context behind these positions.

But, just like every single time I've asked the centrists and conservatives to be specific in their claims, nothing will follow. It's never about discussing positions. It's just outrage farming and once there's the slightest pushback, once people actually ask to discuss an actual position we're met with silence. Or weird AI-generated rants that barely address the point and then go full-on whataboutism to give the illusion of having made a valid point.
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Not a single "objectively" in the whole blah blah? Must be the heatwave.
And, as one goddamn moron to another, educate yourself, @Azas.
Try to understand this is the brave new forum, where mods have basically abdicated, and there is a single member who is most equal and most educated and allowed practically everything.
Also, blah blah, at the same time, blah blah, said it before and will say it again, blah blah, objectively, as I've already told you, blah blah, ranting, ad hominems, blah blah, specific, blah blah, objectively.
 
Obnoxymoronyx said:
Not a single "objectively" in the whole blah blah? Must be the heatwave.
And, as one goddamn moron to another, educate yourself, @Azas.
Try to understand this is the brave new forum, where mods have basically abdicated, and there is a single member who is most equal and most educated and allowed practically everything.
Also, blah blah, at the same time, blah blah, said it before and will say it again, blah blah, objectively, as I've already told you, blah blah, ranting, ad hominems, blah blah, specific, blah blah, objectively.
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Yet not a single challenge to the things I mentioned, thus, once again proving my point. The fact that none of you even try to engage with the mentioned facts says it all ;)

Cope and seethe, buddy.
 
I wrote that the newly elected Darializa Avila Chevalier, appears to hold some very questionable views based on her now-deleted tweets. UpTheIrons then provided the exact quotes. Yet all of that was dismissed as unimportant.

And after that, how can you accuse us of not wanting to engage in discussion? Man, look in the mirror.

Whenever you reply to one of my posts, you immediately lose me because of your attitude. It always comes across as: "I know better." Every single time.

I admit it when I'm clearly wrong. You, on the other hand - or at least that's my impression - never seem to do so.

Just acknowledge that there are some loons in the Democratic Party, whether it's one, two, or three of them, and move on. I'm not asking for much. But every time, you put on your armor and go to battle over it.

Pick your fights.

This time, I don't think I was obviously wrong. Darializa Avila Chevalier does appear to hold some questionable views. Now, whether it's the right moment to focus on those views when the far right is currently in power - that's a perfectly legitimate question, and I have no objection to raising it.

That's all I'm saying. Huh.

***

Or is his opinion supposed to be automatically rejected just because it was aired on Fox News?
 
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Azas said:
I wrote that the newly elected Darializa Avila Chevalier, appears to hold some very questionable views based on her now-deleted tweets. UpTheIrons then provided the exact quotes. Yet all of that was dismissed as unimportant.

And after that, how can you accuse us of not wanting to engage in discussion? Man, look in the mirror.
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Once again: I gave the detailed and current quote instead of some cherry-picked tweets from years ago. The fact that you still refuse to engage with it shows that you don't care about discussion. Will you finally go back and talk about it since you so clearly wanted to start a discussion?

Azas said:
Whenever you reply to one of my posts, you immediately lose me because of your attitude. It always comes across as: "I know better." Every single time.
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There are some things where I do know better. There are some things where most people who post in this thread know better than you, because you rarely take a deep dive into the actual facts. That's what happens when you mostly consume random tweets.

You have a history of concern trolling, of making some vague claim based on vibes, and once challenged on it (especially when the data is clearly against the claim) you never engage. You never discuss. You either move on and pretend nothing happened, or you try to whatabout. I asked you to be specific and to post an excerpt or a quote to discuss the actual position. You refused to do so, just as you refused the last time I asked you to post something specific. Why is that? Why is it so difficult to take the excerpt, post it with its surrounding context, and then talk about it? Stop trying to play the victim and go dig into the lengthy quote that shows her positions, if it's what you want to discuss.

Azas said:
I admit it when I'm clearly wrong. You, on the other hand - or at least that's my impression - never seem to do so.
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I can't do anything about that if it's your impression, but I have admitted wrongdoing quite a few times in my posts. Things that are subjective in nature obviously don't have an actual "right" or "wrong". But things where I was wrong about proper facts? Sure, I can admit to that without issue.

Azas said:
Just acknowledge that there are some loons in the Democratic Party, whether it's one, two, or three of them, and move on. I'm not asking for much. But every time, you put on your armor and go to battle over it.
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Dude, I criticize the Democratic party all the goddamn time, just for different reasons than you. Go through my posts in this thread and actually read them, instead of assuming and misremembering. I'm not a fan of the Democratic party.
My issue with saying the DemSocs are loons is that no proper argument has been made to show that. You simply declared that they are loons because one of them praised communists. A socialist/leftist praising communist figures and saying that Marx was a great thinker? The horror! lmao. Even if you dislike how Marxism turned out, it should not be controversial to acknowledge that the man was a great thinker. There's a reason his writing ended up being so influential.

So, explain to me who the loons are and why they are loons. Saying "they are far left" is not enough. I can explain to you why the far right are loons, by talking about specific ideals that they follow, by showing you the rhetoric they spew, by the legislation that they try to push. I don't care about you simply saying "they are loons" and being done with it. I want to see actual arguments and points raised.

Azas said:
This time, I don't think I was obviously wrong. Darializa Avila Chevalier does appear to hold some questionable views. Now, whether it's the right moment to focus on those views when the far right is currently in power - that's a perfectly legitimate question, and I have no objection to raising it.

That's all I'm saying. Huh.
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I posted a long quote that goes into her views. Let's talk about it, go and take a crack at it.

And while we're at it, about the laughable "both sides are extreme and crap": Let's take a specific time frame, let's say the last 20 years, and since we're in the US politics thread, let's talk about America specifically. Can you give me a list or examples of the "far left" and them doing bad, harmful or dangerous things? Because I can give you a lengthy list of death, rape, corruption, extortion, and quite a few other crimes committed by the far right. Some of them even in position of power. If we wanna claim that both "extremes" are bad, let's quantify that. Let's analyze the claim. Show what the "far left" has done in that time frame. And please don't use an AI to formulate some garbage, it shouldn't be difficult to substantiate your view with examples, since you obviously feel strongly about that topic.
 
If I need to explain to you why people on the far left who still have wet dreams about communism and Marxism are loons, then we simply live on different planets.

Communism is not thriving in any country on this planet. From my perspective as an Eastern European, it's quite baffling - if not downright depressing - to see some Westerners still looking at those ideas with admiration and awe.

I disagree with all of it. Period.

And as for the AI: it merely translates what I'm writing. I don't ask it to formulate my arguments for me, although lately it has started softening my wording a bit. Ha, ha.
 
Vaenyr said:
Yet not a single challenge to the things I mentioned, thus, once again proving my point. The fact that none of you even try to engage with the mentioned facts says it all ;)

Cope and seethe, buddy.
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Why would anyone take the time and considerable effort to engage with your diatribes when you only ever argue in the worst possible faith?

You have made it abundantly clear over a span of literal years that you are a leftist ideologue, you interpret everything that your ideological bedfellows say in the best possible light and interpret everything that anyone with a different view says in the worst possible light, making reasonable discussion practically impossible.

On top of this you engage in the most fatuous pedantry, insisting that others 'educate and inform' themselves at every turn whilst playing the hatchling and faux-helplessly demanding that you are spoon-fed every scrap of information to disseminate with everybody knowing full well you will dismiss any such evidence that contradicts your own views out of hand in an instant.

But what really rubs me up the wrong way, and is the reason I'm writing this post is that the way that you talk down to others (just see any of your replies to Azas), regularly belittling their intelligence and level of education, being insulting and domineering. You're entitled to whatever political views you desire, but the fact you seem to think it gives you the ground to behave in such a spiteful manner towards others whilst deluding yourself into thinking you're sat on some moral high horse leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

You may sit around thinking that you are some virtuous hero 'owning the chuds' or some such but frankly, most people you smugly reply to just find you to be a tiresome boor.

I'm sure you will respond with your customary 'but show me exactly where I did these things, trawl through my entire posting history and give me specific examples or... I win, I win, I win!' so just to make you aware in advance, I can't be bothered, it is not a productive use of my time.
 
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