IRON MAIDEN SURVIVOR #7: Results -> Hallowed Be Thy Name wins for the 6th time!

Spambot said:
In lack of words for my disappointment with this song, I'll quote one MaidenFans member (I think it was Mosh) who summed it up pretty nicely:
"Empire just is and then it isn't."
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Fake news! I don't think I said that, but I'm curious what I meant by that if I did.

I like Empire of the Clouds and I am really glad that it exists, it's always cool when Maiden throws a curveball. I also like the rare occasions when we get a solo composition from Bruce as he tends to break the Maiden mold more often. I am still craving a sidelong epic from Steve, although a trilogy of epics almost satisfies that craving.

My biggest criticism of the song is that I think they should've fleshed out the piano and orchestration more. A real orchestra would've contributed a lot, and if they were going to correct Bruce's piano playing via MIDI anyway I think they could've hired someone to just arrange a piano part (imo this had more to do with making sure Bruce had a piano credit on the album). The one finger piano playing on the album just feels a little amateurish to me. It's also emblematic of Maiden's habit of putting out products that come off as unfinished (see also Bruce's book). So I would really like to see the song performed live with an orchestra and I hope it's on Bruce's to-do list, because I think it's great but there are things that could improve it. The overall composition, music, and lyrics are all great though. It won't make my top ten (it's probably my third favorite on the album) but it'll also be some time before I'm ready to vote for it here.
 
Jer said:
I didn't agree with everything you wrote, but you made good points and I enjoyed reading it. Though you should have started your post with "Hold my Trooper Red & Black Beer..." or some such. And maybe made some kind of reference to @Niall Kielt's couch.
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I really want to quote the Rick James/Dave Chapelle couch bit but that probably breaks some forum rules and rightly so.

Still, if you know you know.
 
Spambot said:
I think some of the things would be more appropriate in the thread of the aforementioned song, but it's a survivor, and I have to present my case, so why not. Also, I can joke that I hate this song, but if we're getting more serious I'd say "hate" may be a strong word, considering it's a felling towards the song. Phrases I used in the past were "pretentious", "pompous" and there might be a silent but determent "Fu**. You." after I heard it for second or third time.

Just a little background. I don't have a short song bias (same as Mindruler, I'd rate Rime and The Parchment in my top 10) Also I'm not going to say "it's not metal enough". For example, my favorite Bruce solo album is "Skunkworks". Even when "Skunkworks" is my favorite album, to affirm my status as a Bruce fanboy, I'll say I'd take "Chemical Wedding" and "Accident of Birth" over "X Factor" and "Virtual XI" and if you ask me to chose between "Iron Maiden - Killers" and "No Prayer - Fear of the Dark" I'd probably make a dick move and chose first two albums, because I know most of those songs were sung by Bruce at some point. Furthermore, last month I went to that concerto thing just because Bruce was singing. If you took that gig in my backyard and replace the singer I'd probably remain at my balcony with a beer.

Now, about the song. Nothing here is a fact, only my opinion/view of why I don't like the song - saying the song is "good" or "bad" is a moot point at most cases.

First minute there is a theme on piano, which can be viewed as an intro. Only, there is a different theme on the second minute. Now, even that wouldn't bug me if those two parts weren't repeated note-by-note, only this time with a vocal. If those two minutes qualify as intro, I think nobody should bug Steve anymore for editing. And if you look at them as an intro, that makes the first sung verse quite bare and uninteresting without any hook or surprise to make it more colorful. Since the song is 18 minutes long and it starts with two minutes on piano, maybe it can be counted as overture, but even then, there is nothing in those two first minutes that would announce what is happening in the rest of the song.

So there are 2 minutes on piano theme + 2 minutes of that same piano with Bruce singing + 3 minutes of that same piano with Bruce singing and the rest of the band joins him. That's third of the song doing same old, same old. That kind of composing reminds me of a kid who takes only red Lego bricks and puts them in a straight line and then stacks couple of same rows above it. "Look, I've built a wall" Yeah, great, it's a nice wall, but with all the shapes and colors, it leaves me pretty unenthusiastic. Even if the piano theme was out of this world, it just too repetitive and with little to no twist to it for 7 damn minutes. Look at the songs that closed Senjutsu or Final Frontier, hell, even look at the longer song on the same album composed by Steve. You can say about Steve's editing whatever you want, but at least those songs have a "unpredictable" structure (unpredictable compered to Empire). Those songs either have a hints in their intro, or theme that is twisted later in the song, or some kind a different structure. For example "Hell on Earth" is like a fucking adventure. First time listening, the chorus always got my by surprise. Compared to Steve's full-on adventure Bruce's Empire feels like a tutorial. First you got to learn the moves for two minutes, they you need to repeat those same movies - this time with an NPC, and then you have a mission with NPC, but to pass it you need to repeat those exact moves. Not fun.

After 7 minutes there is SOS. Now, I know a lot of people love it, but I find it extremely amateurish. Like "Hey people, did you heard about my high school band? - Oh, yeah, you're the guys who put that SOS Morse code in a song. Cool stuff". That could pass for someone putting his debut out, but for a band with 35 years of experience and 14 studio albums in their belt I find it pretty uninspiring. And the fact that each SOS is getting slower and slower makes me imagine poor guys dying on their instruments.

Now, I like the part that starts 7:18, I'd even say I love it. First time I heard it, I fist-pumped the air thinking "Finally, the song takes of!!!" You know, like the R101. Nope. Here's another SOS to inflate it all. Speaking of inflating, it quite obvious things have gone awry for R101 at this point, at least that's what it looks like @8:38. Cool Nicko fills make me think the trouble is already here and the song is picking up. No, let's stop (once more) and here's a Legacy riff. Here, that riff alone looks like a piece baked dry chicken with no sauce and no side dish. That's now over half of the song, and even if I didn't lose my interest until now, this definitely ruined it for me. The only thing that is keeping me is the orchestral part that add some sort of flavor. Orchestra, which was pretty noticeable for first couple of minutes, only to be totally forgotten and now take the lead. Guitar solo's are nothing to write home about, but again, I really don't notice them unless they're really awful or really great.

@10:34 song changes the tempo, gets a bit heavier, a bit faster, lead guitar is interesting to follow. Let's see what happens after R101 crashes. Oh wait, let's return to Legacy riff once more. Here, even if Bruce constructed first part of the song, nothing here speaks "Bruce" or has the connection with first part of the song. There is no way Bruce came up with all of it, which kind a makes a saying that he "constructed it all" futile. At the same time he managed to make a song that is completely his but on the other hand is a team effort. I know it sounds contradictory, and that's how it feels to me. So, I'll say that, so far, "Empire" doesn't sound like a Bruce solo or a collective Maiden effort. This part ends with another solo over a generic riff progression that could be copy-pasted in majority of Books of Souls album and I wouldn't notice.

Bruce returns at @12:30, dare I say Bruce bursts @12:30. I love the guys voice, but here he sounds like a kid at a school play and after seeing his parents, he's trying to out-voice (out-sing?) everybody because "louder is better". So Bruce tells how R101 is lolling somewhere over France and... Wait a minute. I thought the ship is already broken?! I mean, that was what those SOS Morse code was for, right? And the part that illustrates it floating and the riding into storm. But Bruce is saying it just happened now. So this is the climax, right? I mean, it sounds like it should be climax, but it doesn't sound like climax. What was SOS before then? I won't say songs should have a climax, but if you're keeping me here for 18 minutes there better be some structure or story. Thirteen minutes in and I have no idea what each part should represent or tell.

Now, this three-note thing that happens @12:54 may sound good when Bruce was playing the piece on piano. But when you translate this three-note melody to a full band with three guitars, bass and drums... To me, it sounds awkward to say at least. Like on of those Sony-Ericsson ringtones from the beginning of the millennia, the ones that nobody ever used. OK, so the song stopped again, and let's see what happened when R101 crashed, but NO! @13:40 Bruce is singing that Reapers' scythe cut into the ship. Now. @13:40. Which makes me thing what the fu** was happening between 7:00 and 13:40. Those three-note melody is back again and if this wasn't based on real events, you bet my ass I'd mock this entire thing much more than I already did. Listen, you know that tune that is often used as a circus music? This one. Well, it was composed in 1897 as a military march by Julius Fulic and it's called "Entry of the Gladiators". I repeat - that tune, military march, "Entry of the Gladiator". Also example where composer had one idea/theory and in practice it turned out to be something else.

You could also bet my ass that Bruce took the melody @14:25 from some free online database just by typing "suspense" or "horror" and clicked download on first tune available. OK, I overreact but, again, for a band with three decade of experience making albums this stinks quite amateurish. Even worse, I don't see how it fits to the previous part (three-tone) or how it fits to the next part (repeated intro/overture/7 minutes of piano) because it doesn't feel like natural extension of either, nor does enhance either of those parts. I guess it should portray the horror that happened that it crash, but... As I said, it's based on real-life so I'm going to refrain myself.

Repeated intro at the end of the song kind of fits the Maiden style and here is the piano bit again, but Bruce also decided to add a "finale". Too bad he forgot to add every other bit of operatic composition also. To people who love this song I see that it resembles as an emotional closure, to me - I'm just glad it's finished. OK, I can de-construct any Maiden song like this and try to make it look awful, even better, somebody can take and de-construct my review and beat me on every single point. So, I'm going to add what really bugs me about this.

Bruce is the man, man! If they went from Paul di'Anno to Blaze or had some other singer, I doubt I'd be fanatic as I am/was. His voice on Brave New World was a huuuuuge crossroad in my music life some 20+ years ago. I really love most of things he does. There are times when he tries to take a hit and misses, and even he realizes it and takes it with style. But when he hits the ball, it goes out of the park. That talent, at the right moment, with right phrase, can inspire thousands. I'm saying this because once me and my friend were watching some making of (I don't remember was it Dance of Death or AMOLAD) and we both agreed on same thing: "Damn! Bruce should have more creative freedom! Look at that talent, look at that style! Damn you Steve, for constraining Bruce so much. Give that guy a bit space and time and watch him fly!" And, it happened. Now, I hoped/waited for a song like this for a long, long time and when it finally happened - it sank worse than a ... submarine.

When Book of Souls came out, I don't know was it hype or what, but it was like everything Maiden did led to this moment, the moment where "Empire" will close the album, and even worse, people were ecstatic. One guy, who acts like he has stick in his ass, said he danced when he first heard "Empire" (true, it was a new album bias and with time, his and everybody's else opinion on the song lowered). Still, even than I wondered what it everybody else hearing that I don't.

I mean, music fits the story. OK, at least first part and that isn't so hard to achieve when there's a recurring theme for 7 minutes. But does that make it interesting? Somebody can take a train conductor reading announcements for 7 minutes and compose something to go beneath it. "Crowning achievement"? Well yes and no. As I said, in later part you can hear other members but, to me, it sounds like they kept putting things on in and kept first one that sticks, without any coherent though how to approach it. Even if it was 18 minutes solely Bruce, there is a problem for me. It's like he tried to be MVP of the game, you know, best scorer, most assist, most blocks, stolen balls and so on. And those things do happen. But this was fifth game of an NBA finals. Closing song on what could've been (at the time) their last album. He did achieve his triple-double, but his team lost the game. If it was team effort from the first second, it would sound completely different, for better or worse. But at least it would be "we did it our best" instead of "we played it all to Bruce."

Bruce is not an instrumentalist but composed entire song. Yeah, that is admirable. But that doesn't automatically make it great. Listen, tomorrow I can apply for marathon and run the whole thing for 11 hours. I may get a small article in "Believe it or not" category in newspaper, but I doubt that in near future some P.E. teacher would be: "Listen kids! One time, old Spambot smoked half a pack of cigarettes, drank couple of beers and next morning - he ran the entire marathon!" That may speak about my determination, but it doesn't say a thing about hard-work, talent, strategy, or whatever. If it was a Bruce solo effort, for his solo album, I might view it different. But for fuck sake, you had 5 other guys in the room next to you, 5 other guys whose ingredients made Maiden what they are.

In lack of words for my disappointment with this song, I'll quote one MaidenFans member (I think it was Mosh) who summed it up pretty nicely:
"Empire just is and then it isn't."

There.
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I don't want to convince you to like the song. I understand that 18 minutes is too much for many fans and you can't like every song, but I want to share some thoughts.
The song is presented to be more than that, it is meant to be a whole experience, an opera.
When a song is 18 minutes long, a lot of repetition is to be expected. You don't want the song to be a mess with different parts just for the sake of them. And of course, an 18-minute song will be mostly instrumental. Bruce wants to create the vibe with it - both musically (you need the impact) and lyrically (you need the story to be properly told).
And let's not forget - we are talking about a song without a proper chorus and with only 2 solos!
The intro is 2 minutes long (normal for the length of the song) and is quiet, like every ''dream'' at the start. Steve did the same in Hell On Earth. The repeated piano motif should be there constantly to represent the atmosphere, it is everything for the song. The song really kicks in after 4 minutes. The ''journey'' begins. And of course more lyrics will follow, the guitar melody is also needed. Then after 7 minutes it's time for an impactful part again. I think the song truly shines after Janick's lead (around 7:19). Nicko's drumming is amazing during this Act of the song. I guess Bruce wanted this part to be 2 minutes long because he needed more instrumental and to showecase that the storm was coming. Then follows a hopeful melodic riff (before the solos) to showecase the urgent need to think fast in this situation. The two solos are some of Dave and Adrian's best imo. I wish they were longer. The ''Legacy riff'' after Dave's solo is great and was probably added to have a cool bridge between the solos and as a sign of hope (again) with its melody. He probably could have not repeated the riff after it again (the riff from 9:20-10:02), but I suspect it was added because the orchestartion is really distinct druing it. Then after Adrian's solo we reached the pivotal part of the song with those fantastic verses. We had the ''worrying'' melodies/riffs again, of course (x2). The creepy riff (along with the drumming) after 14:23 is also needed. Then more quiet verses and the main melody are following, and that's something Steve would have done too. Then after that the ''Dreams live on'' sort of chorus (culmination) is all you need to hear. The story of life continues. A 1 minute quiet outro is also mandataroy.

Not many composers can write such a song! Probably only Steve. Btw, he said he wished he had written it (probably Powerslave too). I mean, I'm sure he likes it a lot. It's curious if Bruce had co-written the song with Steve what the end result would have been, but this is an amazing achievement for a vocalist. No one can deny the greatness of the song.
____no5 said:
5 is one, disguised as 5 :ninja:
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There's been a lot of writing ''freedom'' since TBOS album, so it's no surprise that Bruce wrote a song of his own for the first time since 1990. I think IESF was demoed a few years before 2015. And Bruce was probably the only one who had an idea for a song involving piano parts (hence the length of the song). Also, look at the writing credits since 2000 - yeah, Steve is involved in almost all songs, but it's not just him.
 
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Mosh said:
I like Empire of the Clouds and I am really glad that it exists, it's always cool when Maiden throws a curveball. I also like the rare occasions when we get a solo composition from Bruce as he tends to break the Maiden mold more often. I am still craving a sidelong epic from Steve, although a trilogy of epics almost satisfies that craving.

So I would really like to see the song performed live with an orchestra and I hope it's on Bruce's to-do list, because I think it's great but there are things that could improve it. The overall composition, music, and lyrics are all great though. It won't make my top ten (it's probably my third favorite on the album) but it'll also be some time before I'm ready to vote for it here.
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A 20-minute epic by Steve would be curious (and great, no doubt), but it's too much imo. One long long epic is enough. 10-13 minutes is perfect. And I like Empire a lot. I'm also glad that it exists. Something different. A pure masterpiece!

I wish Maiden would play Empire just once live.
 
Kalata said:
I don't want to convince you to like the song. I understand that 18 minutes is too much for many fans and you can't like every song, but I want to share some thoughts.
The song is presented to be more than that, it is meant to be a whole experience, an opera.
When a song is 18 minutes long, a lot of repetition is to be expected. You don't want the song to be a mess with different parts just for the sake of them. And of course, an 18-minute song will be mostly instrumental. Bruce wants to create the vibe with it - both musically (you need the impact) and lyrically (you need the story to be properly told).
And let's not forget - we are talking about a song without a proper chorus and with only 2 solos!
The intro is 2 minutes long (normal for the length of the song) and is quiet, like every ''dream'' at the start. Steve did the same in Hell On Earth. The repeated piano motif should be there constantly to represent the atmosphere, it is everything for the song. The song really kicks in after 4 minutes. The ''journey'' begins. And of course more lyrics will follow, the guitar melody is also needed. Then after 7 minutes it's time for an impactful part again. I think the song truly shines after Janick's lead (around 7:19). Nicko's drumming is amazing during this Act of the song. I guess Bruce wanted this part to be 2 minutes long because he needed more instrumental and to showecase that the storm was coming. Then follows a hopeful melodic riff (before the solos) to showecase the urgent need to think fast in this situation. The two solos are some of Dave and Adrian's best imo. I wish they were longer. The ''Legacy riff'' after Dave's solo is great and was probably added to have a cool bridge between the solos and as a sign of hope (again) with its melody. He probably could have not repeated the riff after it again (the riff from 9:20-10:02), but I suspect it was added because the orchestartion is really distinct druing it. Then after Adrian's solo we reached the pivotal part of the song with those fantastic verses. We had the ''worrying'' melodies/riffs again, of course (x2). The creepy riff (along with the drumming) after 14:23 is also needed. Then more quiet verses and the main melody are following, and that's something Steve would have done too. Then after that the ''Dreams live on'' sort of chorus (culmination) is all you need to hear. The story of life continues. A 1 minute quiet outro is also mandataroy.

Not many composers can write such a song! Probably only Steve. Btw, he said he wished he had written it (probably Powerslave too). I mean, I'm sure he likes it a lot. It's curious if Bruce had co-written the song with Steve what the end result would have been, but this is an amazing achievement for a vocalist. No one can deny the greatness of the song.

There's been a lot of writing ''freedom'' since TBOS album, so it's no surprise that Bruce wrote a song of his own for the first time since 1990. I think IESF was demoed a few years before 2015. And Bruce was probably the only one who had an idea for a song involving piano parts (hence the length of the song). Also, look at the writing credits since 2000 - yeah, Steve is involved in almost all songs, but it's not just him.
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While I disagree with a bunch of Spambot's opinion, I can see the points that are raised. For example that the song has a rather strange structure, not because it's an epic, but because the sections feel out of order. The lyrics don't always reflect what has happened musically and vice versa. I feel countering them with "a 2 minute intro is normal for an epic", or "minutes of repetition are to be expected" is a bit of a weak argument, to be honest. There's not a single correct way on how to write long songs, or hell, music in general. Maiden like to repeat certain sections a lot (notably the intro/outro sequence). That's not the only way though.

More progressive bands like Dream Theater, Blind Guardian, or even something like Cradle Of Filth like to have a chorus to their epics, but to have wildly different sections between those. So you have a ton of new ideas coming at you, but every few minutes you'll get the familiar chorus so that the listener isn't overwhelmed.

Another approach is seen when looking at classical music. There a musical motif will be introduced, but rarely will it be simply repeated without some kind of variation. The material gets developed and changes over time. Every once in a while there will be a callback to the original idea, but the piece itself keeps moving along to explore the idea to its fullest.

Personally I'm a fan of Empire Of The Clouds, but I feel that some of the decisions hold it back; it could've been even better. I think at the very least they should've used real musicians for the orchestral instruments. The piano is mostly okay since it's rather simple, but especially the cello would've benefited tremendously from it. There are also some of the earlier verses that I'm not the biggest fan of, because I'm not enjoying the melodies used for them as much, but that's obviously entirely subjective.

Having said all that: "Oh the dreamers may die, but the dreams live on" is both an absolutely badass lyrics and a fantastic section. Easily one of the best moments in their entire discography and I will fight anyone who disagrees :D
 
Vaenyr said:
While I disagree with a bunch of Spambot's opinion, I can see the points that are raised. For example that the song has a rather strange structure, not because it's an epic, but because the sections feel out of order. The lyrics don't always reflect what has happened musically and vice versa. I feel countering them with "a 2 minute intro is normal for an epic", or "minutes of repetition are to be expected" is a bit of a weak argument, to be honest. There's not a single correct way on how to write long songs, or hell, music in general. Maiden like to repeat certain sections a lot (notably the intro/outro sequence). That's not the only way though.

More progressive bands like Dream Theater, Blind Guardian, or even something like Cradle Of Filth like to have a chorus to their epics, but to have wildly different sections between those. So you have a ton of new ideas coming at you, but every few minutes you'll get the familiar chorus so that the listener isn't overwhelmed.

Another approach is seen when looking at classical music. There a musical motif will be introduced, but rarely will it be simply repeated without some kind of variation. The material gets developed and changes over time. Every once in a while there will be a callback to the original idea, but the piece itself keeps moving along to explore the idea to its fullest.
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The sections feel out of order? The lyrics don't always reflect what has happened musically and vice versa? A weak argument? I don't think so, especially since repetition is used a lot in Maiden's music. Every few minutes you'll get the familiar chorus - what about Angel And The Gambler? Empire has enough different sections and callbacks. If there isn't repeated motif, I think the song can easily become a mess with just different parts sticking together. And you need to repeat (exactly the same way) the most important parts for the long song. That's how I see the things.

I personally find it amazing that Maiden can write epic long songs without a proper chorus and the songs are still amazing. A unique skill. For me, no one can create epics like Maiden.
Vaenyr said:
Having said all that: "Oh the dreamers may die, but the dreams live on" is both an absolutely badass lyrics and a fantastic section. Easily one of the best moments in their entire discography and I will fight anyone who disagrees.
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I agree.
 
Kalata said:
The sections feel out of order? The lyrics don't always reflect what has happened musically and vice versa? A weak argument? I don't think so, especially since repetition is used a lot in Maiden's music. Every few minutes you'll get the familiar chorus - what about Angel And The Gambler? Empire has enough different sections and callbacks. If there isn't repeated motif, I think the song can easily become a mess with just different parts sticking together. And you need to repeat (exactly the same way) the most important parts for the long song. That's how I see the things.

I personally find it amazing that Maiden can write epic long songs without a proper chorus and the songs are still amazing. A unique skill. For me, no one can create epics like Maiden.
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Yes, stating your subjective opinion as if it's some kind of objective fact while not really addressing any of the legitimate points raised by that post is a rather weak argument. It probably wasn't your intention, but that's how it comes across.

Preferences and all that, but I mentioned multiple different approaches how someone can write long music without repeating the same idea in the same way for literal minutes. The Angel And The Gambler isn't what I described in any way. I talked about songs that, and I quote, "like to have a chorus to their epics, but to have wildly different sections between those. So you have a ton of new ideas coming at you, but every few minutes you'll get the familiar chorus so that the listener isn't overwhelmed." TAATG doesn't do that.

Cradle's Tortured Soul Asylum does that. Blind Guardian's The Grand Parade does that, as does And Then There Was Silence. Dream Theater's Home spend almost the first half introducing new material and then repeats some of that in its second half. Opinion's and all, but while I love most of Maiden's epics, with some like SSOASS being some of my favorite songs of all time, all of the songs I mentioned here are far better songs to me than Empire is. That's obviously completely subjective though.

About the song becoming a mess: That's why I specifically mentioned classical music, where the whole point is to introduce a motif and to modify it in various ways. There are countless symphonies that span anywhere from a dozen minutes to almost an hour with incredibly rich thematic material, complex and intricately composed masterpieces where every note for every single instrument has a place and a purpose. Let's not underestimate listeners. People can listen to stuff like that, analyze it and follow it perfectly well. To claim that long songs need to repeat the same section exactly as is, is almost patronizing. Fugues for example are entirely based around manipulating one single idea and creating a piece out of that. Furthermore, you can callback without repeating the same motif as if copy/pasted. You can modulate, you can change the chords, you can add harmonies; there are a million ways to make it more interesting than just repeating what came before.

The strongest part (for me) in The Red And The Black is the second half, where you get new melodies and riffs one after another, for literal minutes. The ending repeating earlier riffs knocks it down a notch, as do the rather weak verses that also get repeated. SSOASS spends it's first half going verses-chorus and repeating all that, then a section of buildup and then rapid-fire melody and solo sections, without repeats.

Like I said before, there isn't a single correct way to write music. Plenty of different valid approaches.

As for the "out of order" part: As Spambot correctly pointed out, the music is portraying the disaster much earlier than the lyrics. You get literal SOS-messages (which I adore as a detail btw) minutes before the actual disaster happens in the story. I like the lyrics, I like most of the music, I like a lot of sections where they are combined well, but I still think that as a song that tells a story it doesn't succeed as well as Dance Of Death for example. That's all my opinion though and I respect yours and Spambot's as well, even if I don't fully agree with either of you. :)
 
So, Wrathchild, Killers and Lord of Light are gone.
What about the 8-vote songs - Afraid to Shoot Strangers & Futureal?
 
Vaenyr said:
Yes, stating your subjective opinion as if it's some kind of objective fact while not really addressing any of the legitimate points raised by that post is a rather weak argument. It probably wasn't your intention, but that's how it comes across.

Preferences and all that, but I mentioned multiple different approaches how someone can write long music without repeating the same idea in the same way for literal minutes. The Angel And The Gambler isn't what I described in any way. I talked about songs that, and I quote, "like to have a chorus to their epics, but to have wildly different sections between those. So you have a ton of new ideas coming at you, but every few minutes you'll get the familiar chorus so that the listener isn't overwhelmed." TAATG doesn't do that.

Cradle's Tortured Soul Asylum does that. Blind Guardian's The Grand Parade does that, as does And Then There Was Silence. Dream Theater's Home spend almost the first half introducing new material and then repeats some of that in its second half. Opinion's and all, but while I love most of Maiden's epics, with some like SSOASS being some of my favorite songs of all time, all of the songs I mentioned here are far better songs to me than Empire is. That's obviously completely subjective though.

About the song becoming a mess: That's why I specifically mentioned classical music, where the whole point is to introduce a motif and to modify it in various ways. There are countless symphonies that span anywhere from a dozen minutes to almost an hour with incredibly rich thematic material, complex and intricately composed masterpieces where every note for every single instrument has a place and a purpose. Let's not underestimate listeners. People can listen to stuff like that, analyze it and follow it perfectly well. To claim that long songs need to repeat the same section exactly as is, is almost patronizing. Fugues for example are entirely based around manipulating one single idea and creating a piece out of that. Furthermore, you can callback without repeating the same motif as if copy/pasted. You can modulate, you can change the chords, you can add harmonies; there are a million ways to make it more interesting than just repeating what came before.

The strongest part (for me) in The Red And The Black is the second half, where you get new melodies and riffs one after another, for literal minutes. The ending repeating earlier riffs knocks it down a notch, as do the rather weak verses that also get repeated. SSOASS spends it's first half going verses-chorus and repeating all that, then a section of buildup and then rapid-fire melody and solo sections, without repeats.

Like I said before, there isn't a single correct way to write music. Plenty of different valid approaches.

As for the "out of order" part: As Spambot correctly pointed out, the music is portraying the disaster much earlier than the lyrics. You get literal SOS-messages (which I adore as a detail btw) minutes before the actual disaster happens in the story. I like the lyrics, I like most of the music, I like a lot of sections where they are combined well, but I still think that as a song that tells a story it doesn't succeed as well as Dance Of Death for example. That's all my opinion though and I respect yours and Spambot's as well, even if I don't fully agree with either of you. :)
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I respect every opinion. This is metal, not classical music, although Empire uses classical elements. I think the ''alarming'' part was added earlier as a warning. Maiden always manages to tell the story great with their epics imo. Repetition is everywhere, especially in the long songs. You gave examples with Seventh Son, Red And The Black and Dance Of Death - there are repetitive parts in the instrumental sections of the latter two, while the former is unique, but the 2+ minutes middle part helped Steve to avoid repetition. Book Of Souls is the better example. Anyway, I gave my arguments in my first post. One of the best epics in the genre for me.
 
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Eliminated after Round 31:
Wrathchild - 12 votes
Killers - 10 votes
Lord Of Light - 10 votes
 
Voted for The Number Of The Beast, Futureal, If Eternity Should Fail and The Writing On The Wall.
 
  • Afraid To Shoot Strangers
  • The Clansman
  • Blood Brothers
  • Paschendale
 
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