Why the EU will NEVER work

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
[a href=\'http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn29.html\' target=\'_blank\']Won't Take 'Non' For an answer[/a]
[a href=\'http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/09/nve09.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/05/09/ixportaltop.html\' target=\'_blank\']Vote against the EU constitution and risk a new Holocaust[/a]
(Read both links before you dismiss my rant as Amero-centric)
As everyone knows by now, France today voted no on the EU constitution. According to the article, though, the people of France will asked to vote again until they return the result the powers-that-be want.
In the European Union, then, the will of the people means nothing. Apparently, Europe is new to the idea of a plebiscite. When you don't get the result you want, you suck it up and accept the will of the people. You don't condescendingly tell them to rethink their answer and warn them of an impending 'Holocaust' (YES! That's the word one EU official used.) if they don't change their mind.
It's this kind of arrogance on the part of pro-EU people that will make this whole thing impossible. When the people speak, you accept it whether it's good or bad. Europe really needs to get its shit together if it ever wants to 'beat America,' as one Parisian interviewed by a CBC reporter said.
To be honest, I applaud the people of France. You can't meld so many diverse peoples together so quickly and expect 2000 years of language, culture, national identity, and other fundemental differences to be forgotten. It's not like in 1776 when the 13 American states joined to make one country. They were ethnically, historically, and religiously homogenous.
What's so bad about having a France for the French, a Germany for the Germans, an Italy for the Italians, etc? Creating a new level of bureaucracy and government will take away from the voices of the people and make the whole thing more inefficient. Every law and restriction a government passes leaves the people with just that much less freedom. Nation states are not the cause of evil, as some pro-Euros would have you believe. Evl mean (and women, I guess) are the cause of evil. Deal with it. ( i.e. - Germany didn't caused the holocaust, Hitler did.)

Iron Duke,
A Canadian Euro-sceptic

(by the way, as I'm typing this I'm watching a story on the CBC news on how the Swedish ambassador in Ottawa has said 'Canada's environmental policy is useless. You aren't smart like Sweden. We are perfect and you are a flawed country.' I'm slightly pissed off at the Old World arrogance right now...)
 
I agree so very deeply. Back in '92, the Danish people voted against an EU treaty (I think it was mahstricht (sp?), but I might be mistaken), and the governement simply made a few adjustments and put it up for vote again, this time successful. Had it been another no, they'd surely have tried again. We were "freed" from the euro, the plans for a united military, and something else that I can't remember right now. Pissed me off back then, and still does. Now, France voted no for the new treaty and polls show that DK is about 50/50 at the moment, even though 98% of politicians are supporting a yes. Guess what a Danish no will bring?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+May 30 2005, 01:33 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ May 30 2005, 01:33 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] It's not like in 1776 when the 13 American states joined to make one country. They were ethnically, historically, and religiously homogenous.
What's so bad about having a France for the French, a Germany for the Germans, an Italy for the Italians, etc? Creating a new level of bureaucracy and government will take away from the voices of the people and make the whole thing more inefficient. Every law and restriction a government passes leaves the people with just that much less freedom. Nation states are not the cause of evil, as some pro-Euros would have you believe. Evl mean (and women, I guess) are the cause of evil. Deal with it. ( i.e. - Germany didn't caused the holocaust, Hitler did.)


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Actually Europe is probably more homogenous than america has ever been and there is no such things as a pure "french" ,"German" or "italian" there never was and less now that Germany is full of Turks, Spain is full of Africans and when once Black people were confined to the african continent now they even roam China and Japan.... So who are these "french" and "germans" you speak of?

As far as I know only 27 European countries are part of the EU, for those that are and vote "no" on a constitution that's fine, the powers-at-be should instead rewrite it until all 27 nations are happy with it, in this case I agree with what the articles and you are saying.

I applaud the EU and Europe in general. Technology, economic growth and standard of living don't make a country great and they are not what is the most important thing in life. The U.S can keep thinking they can by happiness with their dollars and i'll just keep telling it to shove them up its ass. As soon as I can I plan to leave this country so I can criticize it in peace without getting the "if you don't like it get out" because that is exactly what I plan to do.

Last but not least. There is no such thing as evil, just severely twisted individuals.
 
The question is what is the value of this vote. I think it has no value for the very simple reason that most of people had no idea of what they voted for. In France we ( the medias, the people, the politicians..) almost never talk about Europe. Last time was 13 years ago for Maastricht. When we have elections in France the debate mainly focusses on home policy and it’s never question of the european policy. Why ? Once a politician said it was because french people weren’t interested in it. Probably they’re not interested because they’re not informed about it.

Therefore people don’t know how european institutions work, what are their roles, which decisions they make (and which ones are made by the french government), they just have no idea. So how can they vote ?
I mean the question could have been “Should Iron Maiden include Prodigal Son in their setlist ?” it wouldn't have made any difference as most of people don’t know this song just like they know so few about Europe and the result would be the same : NO as a warning for the french government.


Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the people who said YES are smart and the people who said NO are stupid. I think they are both ignorant about Europe and about politics and institutions. I bet most of them don't even understand what a constitution is. The vote have been spoiled because of people ignorance.



[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+May 30 2005, 03:33 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ May 30 2005, 03:33 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]To be honest, I applaud the people of France. You can't meld so many diverse peoples together so quickly and expect 2000 years of language, culture, national identity, and other fundemental differences to be forgotten.
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I totally disagree , europeans have actually been melting for 2000 years and more, that's why EU is possible.


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Evl mean (and women, I guess) are the cause of evil. [/quote]

You must be misinformed, women aren’t evil, historians are.
 
I think the EU works. But I don't think it would with a constitution. I think that is what we are seeing in France is a mirror of that view... Something like that
 
I think that the EU will not work.

Its lucky that the UK isnt corrupted yet. And is sticking by itself.
If that moon-wanker Blair makes us convert to the Euro and take in the EU constitution. Britain will not be a happy bunny. Lets just hope Blair doesnt get voted for a 4th term. Which I dont think is possible by some government act. Vote OMRLP! Cos they want to introduce a 99p coin. And appoint Norman Wisdom minister for pensions. How totally simple and clever is that? But unfortunatley the general elections are now ages away again. Go Britain, keep away from EU twats!!!!
 
The Raving Looney Party still exists? I thought that Screaming Lord Such was dead... [!--emo&:blink:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I think syl is right. Many peolpe voted no just because they thought it would hurt Chirac and his policy. Or other people voted no because they thought that by voting yes, they would accept Turkey in the EU. Much as the romanianas woudl have voted... Anyway, the EU WILL work. I'm absolutely sure of it. It just needs time, to get everyone's attention and to proove to everyone it's benefits. Here in romania, there's not one euro-sceptic. Even the ultra-natioanlist party here changed its name to be acepted in the PPE. I'm not sure if it would work. Almost every large party here wants to affiliate to the PPE. I can't wait for 2007, when Romania will oficilay be part of the EU (or in the worst case in 208,if hte salv-garde clause comes into action).
 
Anybody know how many nations are currently part of it and how many, like Romania, expect to be on it? I don't think Turkey should be part of the EU because technically it is not in Europe but rather in Asia Minor. I think using their religion as an excuse not to admit them is moronic and backward, but using geography now THAT is moving forward! [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Jun 1 2005, 12:54 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Jun 1 2005, 12:54 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Anybody know how many nations are currently part of it and how many, like Romania, expect to be on it? I don't think Turkey should be part of the EU because technically it is not in Europe but rather in Asia Minor. I think using their religion as an excuse not to admit them is moronic and backward, but using geography now THAT is moving forward! [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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Turkey's argument for entry is that a small part of Turkey is technically part of the European continent. Istanbul, the largest city, is in that part of the country. Hoever, I agree with you. The Turks would be better off trying to form a similar organization for the countries of the Middle East and North Africa. Socially and historically, they have much more in common.
 
Well, after the EU I thought if something similar could work in other areas. I first thought of Latin America, however when Mexico is the strongest economy of the bunch, that gave me the impresion it would never work. If something similar could be started in the Middle East the West has to but out and I KNOW the U.S would go berzerk. It could work because there is more than one country strong enough economically speaking (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia come to mind) However Europe is a very unique case because there are several first world nations or at least economically stable. In fact I remember people protesting countries like Spain and Italy joining because of their weak economies (one of the reason's England didn't join). So you need several countries strong enough to bring other's up instead of being dragged down.
 
ANd now we have the icing on the cake. It seems the EU officials now think it was a mistake to let the french 'peasantry' actually read the constitution before voting on it...


[a href=\'http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=19331\' target=\'_blank\']CLICK HERE FOR STORY[/a]

not even the Republicans are THAT blatantly retarded
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Jun 1 2005, 02:18 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Jun 1 2005, 02:18 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, after the EU I thought if something similar could work in other areas. I first thought of Latin America, however when Mexico is the strongest economy of the bunch, that gave me the impresion it would never work. If something similar could be started in the Middle East the West has to but out and I KNOW the U.S would go berzerk. It could work because there is more than one country strong enough economically speaking (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia come to mind) However Europe is a very unique case because there are several first world nations or at least economically stable. In fact I remember people protesting countries like Spain and Italy joining because of their weak economies (one of the reason's England didn't join). So you need several countries strong enough to bring other's up instead of being dragged down.
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First, parts of that post are comedic gold! (Especially the "when Mexico is the strongest economy..." part) Props to Onhell!

didn't they try something like this in central America? the 'United Provinces of Central America' or something. It consisted of Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, and Costa Rica....I think it lasted from about 1820 to 1840.

and also, in South America there was Gran Colombia, consisting of Colombia (and Panama, which was part of Colombia proper), Ecuador, and Venezuela.

Both federations broke up because there were far too many differences among the former Spanish colonies.


I think it's a shame this happened, because united they might have stood a chance at actually becomming stable, modern, strong countries - with economies free of Gringo interference
 
I think what you are talking about, Duke is after Mexico won its independance from Spain in 1821 it sent emmisaries to Central America to promote unification, in other words Mexico would extend from what is today the American Southwest to Panama (and maybe more). However when the emmisaries got there, they were to late as Central America was already working on their own autonomy. Every country has a section that simply doesn't want to be part of the rest, or the rest of the country doesn't want it there. Candada has the french, The U.S has Texas, Mexico has Chiapas and Yucatan, Germany Has Munich, Spain... Hell the whole country! and the list goes on.
 
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