Tournament of Instrumentals (r1): 97 vs 98 + 99 vs 100
- Thread starter Forostar
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MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I really liked both 97 & 98, but I found the energy in 97 to be rather infectious, whereas 98 is simply a pleasant, melodic song.
Didn't care too much for 99 or 100. The main riff in 99 is great, so I'll go with that (even though most of the song is just sparse soloing and vamping).
Didn't care too much for 99 or 100. The main riff in 99 is great, so I'll go with that (even though most of the song is just sparse soloing and vamping).
RTC
Libera et impera!
97 starts off with a very nice gallop and maintains great pacing and flow throughout the song, which is a good representation of the ethos it's trying to promote (fun and simply a piece of music to enjoy). In that respect, they've done a very good job with the instrumental, and it satisfies the task it set out to do. Good work from the Cult here.
98 has a soothing atmosphere to it and is a good listen to get you into a relaxed state of mind, very much the contrary of 97. It's a simplistic song, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that if it's done well, which is the case here.
99 is perhaps the most-well known instrumental here behind the obvious Maiden and Metallica ones, and it's an interesting song off a great album with some great variety in drum work from the late great John Bonham and the intro does a good job of capturing the listeners interest. While it's not so much an instrumental to represent something, it does a great job of showcasing Bonham's proficiency as a drummer.
100 is a ominous instrumental used to kick off Helloween's prestigious career that subtly symbolizes the calm before the storm. It's not as atmospheric as something like Electric Eye, but it's decent.
Knickerbocker raises a very good point about the differences between 97 and 98, while both songs are very good, 97 is a song that comes off as more technically proficient and simply more memorable.
100 is a decent song to set the tone, but 99 is a very different song, and also a song that has a lot more to work with. Couple that with John Bonham's great drumming, and you have a dark horse for this tournament.
97 and 99.
98 has a soothing atmosphere to it and is a good listen to get you into a relaxed state of mind, very much the contrary of 97. It's a simplistic song, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that if it's done well, which is the case here.
99 is perhaps the most-well known instrumental here behind the obvious Maiden and Metallica ones, and it's an interesting song off a great album with some great variety in drum work from the late great John Bonham and the intro does a good job of capturing the listeners interest. While it's not so much an instrumental to represent something, it does a great job of showcasing Bonham's proficiency as a drummer.
100 is a ominous instrumental used to kick off Helloween's prestigious career that subtly symbolizes the calm before the storm. It's not as atmospheric as something like Electric Eye, but it's decent.
Knickerbocker raises a very good point about the differences between 97 and 98, while both songs are very good, 97 is a song that comes off as more technically proficient and simply more memorable.
100 is a decent song to set the tone, but 99 is a very different song, and also a song that has a lot more to work with. Couple that with John Bonham's great drumming, and you have a dark horse for this tournament.
97 and 99.
Buck's Boogie was very fun but sightly overstayed its welcome. Still some great playing and some really tasty licks. Was never too keen on the Genesis track, it sounds nice but it doesn't go anywhere. They have so many great instrumentals, I'm not sure why this was picked. Went with 97.
Love Zeppelin, especially that album, but hate Moby Dick. It's a cool riff but that drum solo has got to be the most overrated drum performance in rock. Bonham was a great drummer for sure, but come on that solo sucks. The Helloween is just another intro, ugh. This one was cooler than the last one I heard but still all it did was build to a missing climax. And I know that climax is supposed to be on the next track, but the point of this is to judge the instrumental on its own. And on its own, there's no reason to listen to this song. Reluctantly going with Zeppelin, since it is a nice tune without the drum solo.
Love Zeppelin, especially that album, but hate Moby Dick. It's a cool riff but that drum solo has got to be the most overrated drum performance in rock. Bonham was a great drummer for sure, but come on that solo sucks. The Helloween is just another intro, ugh. This one was cooler than the last one I heard but still all it did was build to a missing climax. And I know that climax is supposed to be on the next track, but the point of this is to judge the instrumental on its own. And on its own, there's no reason to listen to this song. Reluctantly going with Zeppelin, since it is a nice tune without the drum solo.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
My new policy going forward for this game is not to vote for tracks that are really just intros to other songs and can't really stand alone as individual songs. Just because it gets its own track on a CD doesn't make it a song.
So, that rules out #100, which is so obviously an intro that the beginning of the next song is included in the track. Which leaves Moby Dick even though I don't really like drum solos. (By far the better Bonham solo is Bonzo's Montreaux, off the Coda LP.) At least the guitar riff kicks ass. Speaking of Zeppelin, if Jennings Farm Blues isn't one of the instrumentals considered in this game, and if it doesn't advance at least a few rounds, I may start my own one-man riot.
Tough to choose between 97 and 98. I think 97 is more interesting on a first listen, but 98 probably holds up better to future listens, as 97 seems like it would get old really fast. So, I'll go with 98 in a close, and speculative, call.
[EDIT: Was typing this when Mosh posted his. I see that my post says almost exactly what he said. Great minds think alike!!!]
So, that rules out #100, which is so obviously an intro that the beginning of the next song is included in the track. Which leaves Moby Dick even though I don't really like drum solos. (By far the better Bonham solo is Bonzo's Montreaux, off the Coda LP.) At least the guitar riff kicks ass. Speaking of Zeppelin, if Jennings Farm Blues isn't one of the instrumentals considered in this game, and if it doesn't advance at least a few rounds, I may start my own one-man riot.
Tough to choose between 97 and 98. I think 97 is more interesting on a first listen, but 98 probably holds up better to future listens, as 97 seems like it would get old really fast. So, I'll go with 98 in a close, and speculative, call.
[EDIT: Was typing this when Mosh posted his. I see that my post says almost exactly what he said. Great minds think alike!!!]
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Great minds? Or great lovers of limitations? Great drawers of barriers? Great nursers of narrowing looks on music? Great advocates of restriction? 
:--P
Sorry guys, I got carried away a little, heh.
Earlier I tried to make clear that this is not per se about songs (whatever the definition of that is). I made a whole rant about this, which Cornfed probably missed.
Anyway, even if you want to see it like that:
How do you guys "decide" (if there's anything rational about this "policy") for yourselves that a piece of music can't stand on its own? I mean, these are your decisions, and no one else's, but how does this principle work?
(For your information: several intros have gone further in this game. I see one or two of these even going further, another round)
Initiation is one of the best metal album beginnings out there. The suspense, the threatening mood, it's such majestic grandeur. There's also a sense of adventure. The warm sounding but still roaring guitars, Schwichtenberg's accents on the toms, then this marching beat and bass guitar, with that awesome carpet of choirish keyboards on top... simply make this powerful tour de force complete. Pure epicness. Bombast of the best kind. Legendary stuff.
Sorry guys, I got carried away a little, heh.
Earlier I tried to make clear that this is not per se about songs (whatever the definition of that is). I made a whole rant about this, which Cornfed probably missed.
Anyway, even if you want to see it like that:
How do you guys "decide" (if there's anything rational about this "policy") for yourselves that a piece of music can't stand on its own? I mean, these are your decisions, and no one else's, but how does this principle work?
(For your information: several intros have gone further in this game. I see one or two of these even going further, another round)
Initiation is one of the best metal album beginnings out there. The suspense, the threatening mood, it's such majestic grandeur. There's also a sense of adventure. The warm sounding but still roaring guitars, Schwichtenberg's accents on the toms, then this marching beat and bass guitar, with that awesome carpet of choirish keyboards on top... simply make this powerful tour de force complete. Pure epicness. Bombast of the best kind. Legendary stuff.
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Then what's it about? For me, the idea of this game is to listen to the songs, no biases about band/album/context/etc attached, and judge the piece on its own.
I listen to the song and I decide if it does anything for me by itself. I figured I made that quite clear in my post, the Helloween had nice ideas but ultimately it was a let down. I wanted it to go somewhere, and it didn't. Not all intros are bad, some of them work on their own. The Helloween doesn't imo.
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Unknown One
I see the ghost of navigators.
There's a Helloween intro later in this game (my favourite out of all of them) that definitely does stand alone better as a singular song and not just an intro.
As to the actual songs. 97 has a bunch of energy while 98 kinda is just a simple melodic song. It's fine but not really my style. And 100 because it's not Zeppelin.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
That's correct, apart from that the game is not per se about songs. Piece or track is a better wording. I don't necessarily want to reopen/continue the discussion but here's what I posted earlier about it: http://forum.maidenfans.com/threads...ntals-r1-45-vs-46-47-vs-48.28754/#post-468062
(+ next post)
But wait, look what happened in the meantime:
That's not what Cornfed said, and I didn't deduce that from your earlier post either. But this sounds more reasonable.
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Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
Humbug. Or, is the modern term, "meh"?
To your larger point. You evidently made clear (yes, I missed or forgot it, but that's typical of me) that intros are fair game. Fair enough. I, in turn, made clear that my votes reflected my personal biases and snap judgments, and generally would be arbitrary and capricious. For example, "Eruption" is arguably an intro, but I voted for it, because in my view, it stands on its own as a classic. In my view, "Initiation" does not. Is that purely subjective? Yep. Is it arbitrary? You betcha. Is it how I plan to continue voting?
In fairness to Foro's legitimate question, how do I "decide" whether an intro can stand alone, obviously there is no bright line rule, but the best way I can describe it is, is it something I would want to listen to again and again on its own, or would I more than likely skip it to get to the "real" song that it is introducing. Put another way, if I were making an iTunes playlist, would I include this on its own? If so, then it's legit. If I would only add it to my playlist if I also included the song it is introducing immediately thereafter, then probably not legit, unless it is really special. (Think "Intruder" and "Ides of March"). If I would just include the introduced song and not the intro, then that means the intro is pretty much worthless to me. Incidentally, "Initiation" would fall into a fourth category: I wouldn't put EITHER "Initiation" or "I'm Alive" on ANY playlist.
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I can't speak for Cornfed, but the way I read his comment, that's exactly what he said: "My new policy going forward for this game is not to vote for tracks that are really just intros to other songs and can't really stand alone as individual songs.". Meaning an exception would be made for songs that can stand on their own. That wouldbe my rule anyway. I'm not gonna vote for any songs that don't work by themselves. Eruption is a great example of something that works, the Helloween songs are great examples of intros that don't work.That's not what Cornfed said, and I didn't deduce that from your earlier post either. But this sounds more reasonable.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
He may be young enough to be my son, but this Mosh fellow is talkin' some sense!
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Yeah, what those guys said!
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Thanks for your reactions. Much appreciated. What I appreciate even more is that you guys are still playing this game, while we're discussing the way you're dealing with it. The last thing I want is chasing you (and others) away, so after this post, I'll try to duck in my hole again. Before that, bear with me once again:
The i-tunes list-method. I wonder: is that fair, as long as you do not use it for opponents of intros ("normal" songs)? It feels as if you're stigmatizing intros while you give "normal" songs more chance to win.
Why not stick to: which is your favourite of the two, when you hear these songs after each other, when you compare them.
And here we arrive to my main argument (something that I forgot to note earlier):
If you like an opponent less, then why not vote for an intro if it feels better even if doesn't stand on its own?
By the way: "I don't have a reason to play this song": that's a saying that I find odd. We all do have a reason since we want to find out which one feels the best in a battle. We need to compare.
The i-tunes list-method. I wonder: is that fair, as long as you do not use it for opponents of intros ("normal" songs)? It feels as if you're stigmatizing intros while you give "normal" songs more chance to win.
Why not stick to: which is your favourite of the two, when you hear these songs after each other, when you compare them.
And here we arrive to my main argument (something that I forgot to note earlier):
What I want to stress is that these songs have opponents. That is the context that shouldn't be forgotten, it's the most important one we're all dealing with. A song (intro or not) wins or looses, depending on the strength of its opponent.
If you like an opponent less, then why not vote for an intro if it feels better even if doesn't stand on its own?
Judge the pieces together in the context of a battle.
By the way: "I don't have a reason to play this song": that's a saying that I find odd. We all do have a reason since we want to find out which one feels the best in a battle. We need to compare.
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None of these discussions are going to turn me away from the game. I find them fun and interesting, and I I enjoy reading the responses.
That sorta thing applies to all songs I hear. Another way of-putting it would be: Which of these songs would I be most likely to listen to more outside of this game? Not the only criteria, but certainly a factor.
Well that's what I'm doing. More often than not, the song opposing the intro has better musical merits and is more enjoyable than the intro.
Again, of course I understand this and take it into account. It's rare for me to enjoy the intro more than a fully fleshed out song.
I've never done this before. If I like the opponent less I vote for the intro. I know I slagged the Zeppelin but besides the drum solo, it still has a decent song built around it. It did much more for me than the Helloween did.
I mean that outside of the context of this game. There's no reason why I would want to go out of my way to listen to the Helloween song by itself. And that's true for a lot of songs I like too. They're cool songs but they don't offer quite as much out of context. In fact these are songs I refrained from nominating for this game because of that very reason.By the way: "I don't have a reason to play this song": that's a saying that I find odd. We all do have a reason since we want to find out which one feels the best in a battle. We need to compare.
97 & 100. I'm afraid I just mentally switched off after listening to that drum solo for a while.