The God Delusion: A Typically Human Trait

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The article below is particularly interesting and highlights how religion is part of Mankind's social life. I personally tend to think that believing in such fairytales shows a flaw in the human mind, but I also happen to know highly intelligent people who believe in a god.

As I pointed out in the commentary of "For The Greater Good Of God", faith and intelligence are not necessarily linked (although the lesser your IQ, the more likely you are to believe in such stories), and religion can have an emotional or cultural basis. I am a strong advocate of Richard Dawkins's view on this subject, but I am also trying to be as tolerant as possible towards other people's views -- as long as they do not do any harm, naturally.

So please read on and leave your impressions. For those who do believe in a god of some sort, I'd like also to read about their reasons to have such a faith in something that doesn't only seems unrealistic, but that has no factual basis.



Religion a figment of human imagination

Humans alone practice religion because they're the only creatures to have evolved imagination.

That's the argument of anthropologist Maurice Bloch of the London School of Economics. Bloch challenges the popular notion that religion evolved and spread because it promoted social bonding, as has been argued by some anthropologists.

Instead, he argues that first, we had to evolve the necessary brain architecture to imagine things and beings that don't physically exist, and the possibility that people somehow live on after they've died.

Once we'd done that, we had access to a form of social interaction unavailable to any other creatures on the planet. Uniquely, humans could use what Bloch calls the "transcendental social" to unify with groups, such as nations and clans, or even with imaginary groups such as the dead. The transcendental social also allows humans to follow the idealised codes of conduct associated with religion.

"What the transcendental social requires is the ability to live very largely in the imagination," Bloch writes.

"One can be a member of a transcendental group, or a nation, even though one never comes in contact with the other members of it," says Bloch. Moreover, the composition of such groups, "whether they are clans or nations, may equally include the living and the dead."

Modern-day religions still embrace this idea of communities bound with the living and the dead, such as the Christian notion of followers being "one body with Christ", or the Islamic "Ummah" uniting Muslims.

Stuck in the here and now

No animals, not even our nearest relatives the chimpanzees, can do this, argues Bloch. Instead, he says, they're restricted to the mundane and Machiavellian social interactions of everyday life, of sparring every day with contemporaries for status and resources.

And the reason is that they can't imagine beyond this immediate social circle, or backwards and forwards in time, in the same way that humans can.

Bloch believes our ancestors developed the necessary neural architecture to imagine before or around 40-50,000 years ago, at a time called the Upper Palaeological Revolution, the final sub-division of the Stone Age.

At around the same time, tools that had been monotonously primitive since the earliest examples appeared 100,000 years earlier suddenly exploded in sophistication, art began appearing on cave walls, and burials began to include artefacts, suggesting belief in an afterlife, and by implication the "transcendental social".

Once humans had crossed this divide, there was no going back.

"The transcendental network can, with no problem, include the dead, ancestors and gods, as well as living role holders and members of essentialised groups," writes Bloch. "Ancestors and gods are compatible with living elders or members of nations because all are equally mysterious invisible, in other words transcendental."

Nothing special

But Bloch argues that religion is only one manifestation of this unique ability to form bonds with non-existent or distant people or value-systems.

"Religious-like phenomena in general are an inseparable part of a key adaptation unique to modern humans, and this is the capacity to imagine other worlds, an adaptation that I argue is the very foundation of the sociality of modern human society."

"Once we realise this omnipresence of the imaginary in the everyday, nothing special is left to explain concerning religion," he says.

Chris Frith of University College London, a co-organiser of a "Sapient Mind" meeting in Cambridge last September, thinks Bloch is right, but that "theory of mind" – the ability to recognise that other people or creatures exist, and think for themselves – might be as important as evolution of imagination.

"As soon as you have theory of mind, you have the possibility of deceiving others, or being deceived," he says. This, in turn, generates a sense of fairness and unfairness, which could lead to moral codes and the possibility of an unseen "enforcer" - God – who can see and punish all wrong-doers.

"Once you have these additions of the imagination, maybe theories of God are inevitable," he says.

Source: Andy Coghlan - NewScientist.com news service
Journal reference: Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B, (DOI:10.1098/rstb.2008.0007)
 
This is something I've heard before. In fact, "The God Delusion" I believe is a book that I'm actually looking forward to reading. I have explained my reasons for believing in God in other threads, but I will be perfectly honest. I grow increasingly more agnostic as time goes on... maybe cause I'm too much of a chicken shit to go full blown atheist :p
 
Onhell said:
"The God Delusion" I believe is a book that I'm actually looking forward to reading.

It's a brilliant book explaining a lot of things, like most of Dawkins books. In the meantime, you can search YouTube for Richard Dawkins; I've found many great videos and documentaries where he gives lectures about his views.

Another fascinating book written by the same author is The Blind Watchmaker. I strongly recommend it too.  :smartarse:
 
I have explained my reasons for believing in God in other threads, but I will be perfectly honest. I grow increasingly more agnostic as time goes on... maybe cause I'm too much of a chicken shit to go full blown atheist

It is completely normal and expected that as we progress into and throughout adulthood, to question our faith. I think most of us go through the majority of our lives with nothing but questions, only to try with all of our might to grasp faith and belief again when it comes time to die. The fear becomes overwhelming and we need something to grasp to believe that our thoughts and souls will continue.

What humans do that no other sentient being does is ask how and why. Not only do we have to trudge through life trying to survive and thrive, we have to question why we are doing this and how we got here in the first place.

While my religion is Episcopal, I do not believe strictly in everything that comes from the bible, much of it is fairy tales. I do believe, however, that there is some force or omniscient power that got all of this started in the first place. I just cannot accept that the laws of the universe are just arbitrarily "there". Society now labels this as "intelligent design". I don't think I strictly follow this concept either because I do believe strongly in the possibility of alternate universes. The point being is that the amazing plethora of scientific knowledge that is out there and yet to be discovered has to come from some intelligent "mind". .....

Unless of course, you believe that we imagine things and by our human will, bring them into being ourselves, which would pretty much make us gods.

Really too much to go into in one post, the possibilities are astounding.
 
What truly bothers me is not that people believe in the divine, but that people instead choose to believe in the divine as a substitute for science.  That I find mindboggling, and to me, it is a very dangerous attitude.
 
Yes, to deny science and scientific proof of things is purely asinine. Sticking to faith in the face of something that has very clearly been proved scientifically does indeed indicate a weak mind. I guess you can always run the risk of falling all the way into Scientology though; but I believe that is based way more on science fiction than anything scientific (I don't know a thing about it, so I could be wrong on that one).
 
Maverick said:
It's a brilliant book explaining a lot of things, like most of Dawkins books. In the meantime, you can search YouTube for Richard Dawkins; I've found many great videos and documentaries where he gives lectures about his views.

Another fascinating book written by the same author is The Blind Watchmaker. I strongly recommend it too.  :smartarse:

Actually, I'm reading The Blind Watchmaker at the minute.  Dawkins is a fascinating author, and is really able to relate complex ideas to people without the in-depth scientific knowledge he and his contemporaries have (for example, myself).  I look forward to reading The God Delusion at some point, although I believe that Dawkins' real strength lies in the evolutionary field.  His arguments refuting creationism are overwhelmingly strong, and yet he doesn't take away from the marvel of evolution; rather, he adds to it.

Speaking of creationism, reading Dawkins has really piqued my interest (which was already very strong) in the whole debate.  I regret not reading the book before my Cambridge interview, because if I had and mentioned it there, they'd have had to drag me off the premises, I'd have waxed lyrical so much!  I believe the reason 'intelligent design' is insinuating its way into schools across America is because of the incredulous nature of evolution; specifically, what Dawkins terms 'The Argument from Personal Incredulity'.  To a layperson, it's much harder to see the connection between monkeys and humans than to accept that falling bodies are attracted to Earth because of gravity, yet both are theories.  Why, then, do we not have 'intelligent falling' discussed in science classrooms?  It's because the creationists feel that they can twist and distort the truth of evolution by playing on everyone's inability to comprehend the scale of evolution.  It really angers me when ID proponents spout their evangelical nonsense as if man is so perfect that he couldn't have evolved from a single-celled ancestor...to believe we are the apex of 100's of millions of years of evolution is both narcissistic and shallow.

As for the belief itself, I hold no religious beliefs, but I don't begrudge people their religion, provided it is tempered.  Don't shove your views down my throat, and I won't air my personal cynicism regarding faith.  Equally, religion can be a powerful aid to someone's piece of mind, particularly when they're going through difficult periods of their lives...it's just not something I would choose to rely on anymore, even if I was feeling depressed or anxious; I prefer to trust in the friends I do have, rather than making ones up.
 
Deano said:
It is completely normal and expected that as we progress into and throughout adulthood, to question our faith. I think most of us go through the majority of our lives with nothing but questions, only to try with all of our might to grasp faith and belief again when it comes time to die. The fear becomes overwhelming and we need something to grasp to believe that our thoughts and souls will continue.

What humans do that no other sentient being does is ask how and why. Not only do we have to trudge through life trying to survive and thrive, we have to question why we are doing this and how we got here in the first place.

That's not it at all. Though what you describe was put forth by Kierkgaard... good stuff. Anyway, I think DEIST is a more accurate term. I am a quasi-practicing Catholic who at one point wanted to be a priest and now it's like "meh, i COULD still be one, but do I really want to? maybe..." Anywho, my beliefs are rather complicated at the moment. I am very much at peace with death, have been for years, I refuse to believe god is vengeful, wrathful, etc. I really don't think the devil exist, if he does, he is not as powerful as we make him out to be, he is just another of God's bitches. I am an ever growing proponent of Free Will to the point that I doubt God has any true influence in our lives (the agnostic/atheist terrain here). I mean as a Catholic Free Will is  given, but once I truly grasped the power of the concept... Damn, our lives are in OUR hands, not some invisible puppeteer's... So on and so forth... for further discussions on the subject I accept letters (see pen paling thread) Shameless selfpromotion? you bet :D
 
Good topic. I was raised a Catholic, but I don't follow that anymore because I think it's a load of nonsense and practically brainwashing the way they teach it in religious schools. Do I believe in God, or a higher spiritual being? Maybe. Suffice it to say, I'm really not sure, so perhaps I should be hedging my bets and indoctrinate myself into all the major religions. ;)

Raven said:
As for the belief itself, I hold no religious beliefs, but I don't begrudge people their religion, provided it is tempered.  Don't shove your views down my throat, and I won't air my personal cynicism regarding faith.  Equally, religion can be a powerful aid to someone's piece of mind, particularly when they're going through difficult periods of their lives...it's just not something I would choose to rely on anymore, even if I was feeling depressed or anxious; I prefer to trust in the friends I do have, rather than making ones up.
I completely agree with this. Religion should be a completely personal thing; if it makes you feel better fine, but don't impose it on others.
 
Maverick said:
The article below is particularly interesting and highlights how religion is part of Mankind's social life. I personally tend to think that believing in such fairytales shows a flaw in the human mind, but I also happen to know highly intelligent people who believe in a god.

As I pointed out in the commentary of "For The Greater Good Of God", faith and intelligence are not necessarily linked (although the lesser your IQ, the more likely you are to believe in such stories), and religion can have an emotional or cultural basis.

My view on this part has usually been based more on class than level of IQ.  I have always believed in religion as those that need god and those that use god.  Classically, the peasants, the very poor, were the ones that needed a god and an afterlife, to be satisfied with what life has given them, and believe that there is an afterlife to provide them with all they didn't get in this life.  The wealthy, upper class have been the ones that use god, to (a) keep the peasants in line, and (b) to keep their wealth and power.  Now, is using god a declaration of a belief in god?  I don't think so.  Take a look at some of the 'ruling class' in the States today.  They all have this 'god' thing in their campaigns, but, really, they are using it, to improve their chances of getting elected.

I will say, though, that as Maverick stated, usually the farther down the IQ scale, the more likely to have a deep, solid belief in god.  So, on the scale in my head, the lower the IQ and the lower the 'class' status, the more likely to need and have god, whereas, the higher the IQ and wealth, the less likely.

Granted, these are very broad generalities, and we all know people that don't fit into those scales, but this has been my view. 

Onhell said:
This is something I've heard before. In fact, "The God Delusion" I believe is a book that I'm actually looking forward to reading. I have explained my reasons for believing in God in other threads, but I will be perfectly honest. I grow increasingly more agnostic as time goes on... maybe cause I'm too much of a chicken shit to go full blown atheist :p

I think there is a huge difference between god and religion.  I know many people that have a strong 'religion', but seem to not be able to find their god.  I also know some that have no religion at all but have a strong feeling towards theirs.  I think its perfectly acceptable to have a belief in some sort of being with out having the need to go to church, or whatever, to prove it.  Agnosticism is perfectly acceptable.
 
Maverick said:
For those who do believe in a god of some sort, I'd like also to read about their reasons to have such a faith in something that doesn't only seems unrealistic, but that has no factual basis.
If you could understand for a second my upbringing - my Father came from an extremely religious family, and they still are. My Mother came from a not so religious family but nevertheless, still they had faith. Why have I become the agnostic that I am? I have no idea, but it may stem from the fact that all through my very younger years, my Mother would question, to us kids, if their was a God and my Father seemed totally alienated from anything religious (he now, however, is a born again).

But the one thing I have noticed in my family outside of my sisters, Mother and me is that the inner peace they have - which is almost entirely down to their faith (this is not to suggest that the rest of us are highly strung). Perhaps by finding their faith, they are happy. Yes you can be happy by not being of a faith, but if they seek solace in the chapters of the Bible, and the rest of us in music/football/pets/whatever, it matters little where it originates - as long as they are happy.
 
Albie, be at peace. Your faith is not in question. I doubt that there are any 2 members here that share the same beliefs. That is one of the things most sought after and fought over, religious freedom. Who cares what someone else says, don't feel the need to defend yourself, just describe what you feel and know. That is what a free society is all about.
 
I do agree that religion, and faith for that matter, are both a form of delusion, but I can also see how faith may be useful to some people.  After reading other members' experiences with both religion and faith, I've decided to summarize my own.

Having been brought up in a communist country, one may suspect that the importance of religion was downplayed in my childhood.  It was, but not due to cultural reasons.  Rather my parents chose to take to heart the old Yugoslav communist credo of brotherhood and unity, a propaganda spread often.  One could not mix religion with such dogma because Yugoslavia had three distinct religions, and religion, as world's events still show us, is often a key division amongst ethnic groups.  Although religion was not banned or had even diminished in old Yugoslavia under communism, any proper high ranking government official obstained from religion in order to practise true communism.  Common people, on the other hand, paid no heed to such limitations.

Most of my classmates went to church and practised their Catholic faith; I wasn't even baptised until I was fourteen and living in Canada.  It seems my parents found their faith in the New World.  They're not overtly religious, but they do attend mass on a semi-regular basis and on all important events.  I am different from them in this regard.  This is perhaps our biggest difference, though religion or absence thereof on my part does not hurt our relationship.

God would not have even entered my consciousness had it not been for my grandmother.  During summer breaks, I'd spend some time with my maternal grandparents on their farm in the eastern, rural part of Croatia.  She was a religious woman and slowly got me to follow her routines of religion, including prayer.  Being young, I accepted it, but not without asking curious questions that could not always be answered to my satisfaction.

In third grade, I recall telling my grandmother than I no longer believed in God.  I still remember her expression of mixed anger and sadness and the accusing remark: "Shame on you!  Is that what they teach you in school".  Eagerly I replied "yes".  That is precisely what I was taught by my history teacher, who quite scientifically and labouriously explained to my class how religion was needed 20,000-30,000 years ago but not in a modern, technologically advanced and scientifically driven society.  We as a modern society, continued my teacher, have outgrown religion because we are, in essence, more educated now.  She even said that one of the key indicators of modern development is a lack of religion in society.  In retrospect much of this was propaganda, but admittedly this anthropological lesson was one of the few things I've learned under communism that I give credit to having influenced me.

God and religion were not heard again in my life until I moved to Canada at the age of 11.  My parents were disillusioned with communism and with the wake of war a couple of years following our emigration, religion's ugly head popped up.  I say ugly because I was so adamant that I would not be baptized or go to communion, and more than a few conversations with my parents ended in frustration and anger.  As a child, I stopped believing in God because the scientific explanation was more parsimonious and made common sense.  As a teenager, I was officially rebelling because I learned how hypocritical religion can be.  Nevertheless, I ended up being baptized and I attended communion during my teenage years.  Somehow my parents convinced me that I'd be a pariah if I did not at least have these two religious milestones under my belt.  "How will you get married?" was a common accusation.  However, as soon as communion was over, I stepped into church only once afterward and that was only during Christmas one year because I owed my mother a favour.  As some of you know, I'll be married soon.  Explaining to my parents that my wedding ceremony will not happen in a church went much better than I expected.  They've tried to compromise, going so far as suggesting a non-denominational ceremony, but as an atheist, I refused.  Acceptance was eventually forthcoming, even if the understanding is not there.

That is essentially the public face of my experience with religion.  My private experience is a little different and the following is not something I've told anybody.  At the beginning of my little anecdote I stated that I understand how faith may be helpful even though it is a delusion.  I believe this because at one point in my life, I contemplated whether or not faith could help me through a very difficult time.  Depression took a hold of me and prayer seemed like a potential solace.  Deep down inside I felt this would be hypocritical of me, as any utterance of the word "God" would be a temporary tool to gain quick relief.  I'm glad I did not succumb as I'd probably have felt dirty for lying to myself after my lengthy bout of depression was over. 

When I say "hypocritical" I want to stress that hypocritical is a personal value judgement and I'd not feel the same way if another person chose prayer to overcome difficult life situations.  Also, I want to make it clear that I would not feel superior in any way to someone who depends on faith during trying times, so long as that faith was tempered with reason and common sense.

Thank you to all who read this.  :)
 
My father studied theology and spent around 10 years in the seminary and several monastaries. At some point (near the end of his study) he didn't feel that well, and after a talk with a psychologist the advice was he better could leave the monastery. He did. Finished his study (meanwhile he met my mother) and instead of working in a church (e.g. as a priest) he started working for the church. Work like writing, office-work, documenting history, but also attending and leading meetings, and helping others in the Catholic organization to get further.

I was raised as a Catholic, went through all the stages (even church marriage, which was way better than the simple and short formal marriage), sang even in a church choir for some years. In the beginning we also prayed before dinner and we went regularly to church, but now all this disappeared, and I only go to church twice per year, during the two most important "events".

My true belief? I believe that the church can be good and give comfort to people. I think it's a good thing to be in a communion, to be with other people, but only if wanted. Not out of fear, not with stern faces, not because of routine.

I dislike dogma's, I dislike all black sides of the church. And there's lots of them. Sides that can make people blind for real issues, real problems. But to say that the world is better off without it, in general? I doubt that.

Do I believe in God? When I'm pretty afraid or very, very worried about certain things, I can't deny that I think of God (or "something"), sometimes. To think about a higher power who could help, or who could assist me in some faith doesn't hurt. Do I truly believe God exists? Technically: not really. It's a rediculous paradox, I know, and it doesn't make sense. Still, this rare faith comes never in place of common sense. It's just a minor "supporting psychological" addition. Do I mind if I don't know if a God exists, or even if I know that he doesn't exist? No, I find it not important, I'm not busy with it. I tolerate this. These thoughts simply don't have any influence on my actions. Only from the inside faith could make me feel better when I have weak moments.

I don't need to prove any belief, nor do I need to disqualify religion as a whole.

I admire people who are religious themselves and who don't force it to other people, who don't threat, who don't make people afraid. Most people who do not like religion have had experienced bad situations themselves, in person. I am glad I never had such situations in my private life (well, not yet that is ;) ), I've never been afraid of religion. I guess I was grown up in a progressive and tolerant family, always place for 100% common sense.

At the same time, I have to admit that I am on my guard for orthodox, conservative, dogmatic, radical (you name it) forms of religions. I've often ranted on this forum about the consequences of such communities.

I'll end with this sentence:

The way religion is practised, tolerated, accepted, respected is a human trait. The religion itself I find a less important topic.
 
Here's a little follow-up on the subject. Sorry I haven't got the time to elaborate more for the moment...



Religion is a product of evolution, software suggests

God may work in mysterious ways, but a simple computer program may explain how religion evolved

By distilling religious belief into a genetic predisposition to pass along unverifiable information, the program predicts that religion will flourish. However, religion only takes hold if non-believers help believers out – perhaps because they are impressed by their devotion.

"If a person is willing to sacrifice for an abstract god then people feel like they are willing to sacrifice for the community," says James Dow, an evolutionary anthropologist at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan, US, who wrote the program – called Evogod (download the code here).

Dow is by no means the first scientist to take a stab at explaining how religion emerged. Theories on the evolution of religion tend toward two camps. One argues that religion is a mental artefact, co-opted from brain functions that evolved for other tasks.

Aiding the people

Another contends that religion benefited our ancestors. Rather than being a by-product of other brain functions, it is an adaptation in its own right. In this explanation, natural selection slowly purged human populations of the non-religious.

"Sometime between 100,000 years ago to the point where writing was invented, maybe about 7000 BC, we begin to have records of people's supernatural beliefs," Dow says.

To determine if it was possible for religion to emerge as an adaptation, Dow wrote a simple computer program that focuses on the evolutionary benefits people receive from their interactions with one another.

"What people are adapting to is other people," he says.

Religious attraction

To simplify matters, Dow picked a defining trait of religion: the desire to proclaim religious information to others, such as a belief in the afterlife. He assumed that this trait was genetic.

The model assumes, in other words, that a small number of people have a genetic predisposition to communicate unverifiable information to others. They passed on that trait to their children, but they also interacted with people who didn't spread unreal information.

The model looks at the reproductive success of the two sorts of people – those who pass on real information, and those who pass on unreal information.

Under most scenarios, "believers in the unreal" went extinct. But when Dow included the assumption that non-believers would be attracted to religious people because of some clear, but arbitrary, signal, religion flourished.

"Somehow the communicators of unreal information are attracting others to communicate real information to them," Dow says, speculating that perhaps the non-believers are touched by the faith of the religious.

Ancient needs

Richard Sosis, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Connecticut in Storrs, US, says the model adds a new dimension to the debate over how religion could have evolved, which has previously relied on verbal arguments and speculation. But "these are baby steps", he cautions.

Sosis previously found that in some populations – kibbutzim in Israel, for instance – more religious people receive more assistance from others than the less faithful. But he notes that the forces that maintain religion in modern humans could be very different from those that promoted its emergence, thousands of years ago.

Palaeolithic humans were probably far more reliant than modern humans on the community they were born into, Sosis says. "[Now] you can be a Lutheran one week and decide the following week you are going to become a Buddhist."

Source: Ewen Callaway - NewScientist.com news service
Journal reference: Journal of Artificial Societies and Social Stimulation, vol 11, p 2
 
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