The cheapest and most expensive book you've bought.

Urizen

Trooper
I've just bought a new, hard cover, 650 pages book for 88,5 dinars equals 1,10 euros or 1,40 dollars. It's a big study of population and work power in the world by Milos Macura called Population and work power, it also has sections in english, and a little bit in french.

And the most expensive one I bought was A. Maskin's History of ancient Rome, for 20 euros.
 
Excuse me for being so direct, but why on Earth would you want to know this, and why do you think any of us remembers this?
 
Natalie said:
Excuse me for being so direct, but why on Earth would you want to know this, and why do you think any of us remembers this?

yes, why?

(after a quick checking)
one super expensive I bought (I don't know if is the most expensive) is "The Internal Combustion Engine Vol II" of Charles Fayette Taylor in the finger-in-the-ass-price of 64€

the less expensive must be the "Poésies Choisies" of Chrétien de Troyes in the super price of 0.2€
 
I'm not sure, but I think I spent something like €35 on L. Thommen, Sparta. Verfassungs- und Sozialgeschichte einer griechischen Polis. for a proseminar I've got this term. But I might have spent more money on books already.
 
Perun said:
I'm not sure, but I think I spent something like €35 on L. Thommen, Sparta. Verfassungs- und Sozialgeschichte einer griechischen Polis. for a proseminar I've got this term. But I might have spent more money on books already.

I wonder if your book agrees with what is said in Plutarch's Lycurgus about life in Sparta. I felt in love with the Spartan polis when I read it.....

Is a fact that the 90% of what we learn in schools about ancien Greece, concerns the city of Athens (and the Ionian tribe), which is somehow unfaire when we have great "unknown" civilizations like Sparta's (Dorian tribe)

We know even less about other towns, like Thebes (Aeolic tribe ???) or Corinthus etc
 
The book of course uses Plutarch's biography of Lycurg as a source, but much of the credibility of the source is disputed.
 
Is a fact that the 90% of what we learn in schools about ancien Greece, concerns the city of Athens (and the Ionian tribe), which is somehow unfaire when we have great "unknown" civilizations like Sparta's (Dorian tribe)

We know even less about other towns, like Thebes (Aeolic tribe ???) or Corinthus etc

This reminds me of reactions I got when I was talking to a couple of schoolmates about ancient Spartans. They sure were impressed when I went on about their courage, training, honor... but the enthusiasm for the Laconians dropped a bit when I mentioned that homosexuality among both genders was common and even organised by the state. Then I went into explaining how this type of behavior was conceived much differently back then... but as I said the enthusiasm was not the same to say the least. It is hard, if not impossible for people today to relate honor, fearlessness and strenght with being homosexual, I think.
We could of course call some of my schoolmates narrowminded, but even in my junior year history book, the facts about sexual orientations in ancient Sparta are overlooked, intentionally in my opinion. Perhaps the teachers are convinced that it is better to leave this question unraised because of all the trouble they would go through in an effort to explain the difference between the type of homosexuality that exists today and the one in the ancient days.
 
I know virtually nothing about ancient Greece except the rudimentary basics. I do recall that in our history books this interesting detail about the Spartans was never mentioned. I think you might be right in what you're saying Urizen, since I doubt any teachers would take the time to explain it. Even now, I have difficulty envisioning a homosexuality thats different from the one we understand today, and why it would be encouraged by the state.
 
About homosexuality in the ancient era:

The major difference I think comes from an ancient myth that tells how people were once whole and then they revolted against the Gods and then Kronos I think was the one who cutted them in half, and because of this man and women were/are constantly searching their other halves. The ancient people of Greece and Rome believed this to be true and therefore a man who was attracted to other men was thought of as being a real, fully complete man, because both of his halves where manlike.

Homosexuality was encouraged and even organised in Sparta because in the case of men, it meant a greater bond between them, which ensured a bigger degree of valour and effort in battle(Spartans were of course primarily concerned with war and maximizing the performance of their soldiers in it), but it also had other purposes because it was customary for a young Spartiat trainee in his late teens I think, to have an older warrior as a tutor who was responsible for the young warrior's bringing up - the two were also intimate.

Upon turning 7 Spartan boys were taken from their families, and enrolled in enduring military training until age 18. They used to exercise naked frequently and when you add the fact they slept in barracks until age 30, homosexuality could be hardly avoided.
Interesting thing is women freedom that existed in Sparta, unlike in Athens where women had the status similar to those of slaves. Spartan women were intimate among each other which is no wonder, when you consider that all the men were constantly on campaigns or exercising.
 
Why thank you, have one yourself :bigsmile:

Maybe we could have the pleasure of Perun, No.5 and some other member coming to this thread and sharing their knowledge about the ancient world.
 
Homosexuality in the ancient world: The most overrated "issue" ever.

Pedophilia in Sparta did exist, but contrary to common belief, it was not endorsed by society. I'll spare you a rundown of a male Spartan's (better said Spartiate) education, but it is important to know that a Spartiate was educated entirely for the sole purpose of serving the community (and hence, the state). Since the Spartans believed in military power as the only way of preserving their independence and identity, the Spartiate was specifically trained in military fields, and spent his life from age seven to age forty in the barracks.
In his teenage years (from age 14 to 18), an elder man was assigned to be his erástes. The Spartiate became his erónemos. Although the relation to "eros" can clearly be seen in these two words, the erástes was first and foremost a tutor. He became something like a fatherly friend, teaching him and guiding him through various situations. The bond was tight, and a certain "love"-relationship certainly existed; though it must be noted that the ancient Greeks had a somewhat broader definition of "love" and were not ashamed to say they "loved" good friends. I believe it was Plutarch in his Vita Lycurgos (though it might have been Xenophon in his Lakedaimon Politeia) who mentioned that the fact that these tutors saw their pupils naked all day caused them to develop erotic feelings towards them. If an erotic relationship would develop, it was usually tolerated as a sort of "human weakness"-thing, but at no point was it ever endorsed.
As a matter of fact, Spartan social rules aimed to strengthen the emotional and erotic bond between man and woman by what would seem now as paradox methods. A man was given the feeling that loving his wife and craving to see her was something bad and out-of-the-ordinary, but this element of "forbidden" love furthered the man's desire to see his wife and get intimate with her. Usually, the man would sneak out of his barracks at night time, see and make love to his wife and sneak back to the barracks afterwards, hoping nobody noticed. Plutarch mentions that sometimes, a man would already have fathered several children without having ever seen his wife at daylight.

Homosexuality was encouraged and even organised in Sparta because in the case of men, it meant a greater bond between them, which ensured a bigger degree of valour and effort in battle(Spartans were of course primarily concerned with war and maximizing the performance of their soldiers in it)

This was the case in Thebes, where Epaminondas insisted the members of his "Sacred Band" (a Theban elite unit) develop relationships so they would do everything to save their lover on the battlefield. I recall reading somewhere that this strategy was considered something special in Greece (and, of course, the main reason for Thebes' military success).
 
Perun said:
As a matter of fact, Spartan social rules aimed to strengthen the emotional and erotic bond between man and woman by what would seem now as paradox methods. A man was given the feeling that loving his wife and craving to see her was something bad and out-of-the-ordinary, but this element of "forbidden" love furthered the man's desire to see his wife and get intimate with her.


Urizen's bit:

Is it not the case that these social rules were aimed to weaken the bond between Spartiats and their wives, so the warrior would not be distracted from combat preparations by worrying about family issues. Though on the other hand, affection towards his wife and children could have been encouraged in the paradoxal way you mentioned, in order to cause even greater commitment and decisiveness on the field of battle because the warrior would have had another reason to win, next to loyalty to Sparta's laws, his tutor, fellow warriors, honor, polis...
 
Though on the other hand, affection towards his wife and children could have been encouraged in the paradoxal way you mentioned, in order to cause even greater commitment and decisiveness on the field of battle because the warrior would have had another reason to win, next to loyalty to Sparta's laws, his tutor, fellow warriors, honor, polis...

That, in my opinion, is how it is. Of course, this is all disputed by scholars (as nothing is undisputed), but the tendency of, dare I say post-Freudian historians goes in that direction. And let's not forget that even the ancients themselves believed it. Plutarch even claimed that such a thing as adultery did not exist in Sparta.
 
Perun said:
L. Thommen, Sparta. Verfassungs- und Sozialgeschichte einer griechischen Polis. for a proseminar I've got this term.


I thought I read in a thread(can't remember which though), that you are a student of prehistory.
 
In Germany, you usually have to study at least subjects, and in my case that is History and Prehistory.
 
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