the biggest mistake in metal history

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what's up guys. i've been a fan of metal, or well rock in general, for a long time now and a friend and i got into a discussion today about british metal bands like sabbath, priest, and of course maiden. i went on to voice my opinion on maiden.

in my opinion the biggest mistake in metal history was when maiden fired paul dianno after the second album released. i tell you, there's nothing like listening to an amalgamation of the sex pistols and black sabbath in one band. most of the music made with bruce dickinson is like...what the hell happened? they turned into a damn hair metal band. i can't bare to listen to songs like wasted years and run to the hills which is why i didn't bother with any of the later music.

sorry if this offends anyone, the first two maiden albums are still two of my all time favorites, but i just find it so hard to believe that a band wasted an opportunity to be one of the most original and hardest rocking bands on the planet. instead they made the mistake of going the commercial route and adopting the stereotypical 1980's metal sound. what do all you hardcore maiden fans think of this?
 
Rubbish I think, but you are of course entitled to your opinion. While I do love the first two albums, probably both in my top 5, I do think that it was a good progression. I think if you listened to more of the later maiden songs you might change your mind, which albums have you actually heard?
 
I'd like to note that Iron Maiden didn't adopt the typical sound...they invented it. In 1980 they were just one of many NWOBHM bands, which all sounded pretty much the same. The best of the NWOBHM bands, but still, very similar sounding. Listen to some Angel Witch, some Samson...you'll see what I mean.

Now, if you like the NWOBHM sound, that's great. Otherwise, I think that - and record sales prove - that adding Bruce to the band was the match that lit the rocket they rode to superstardom.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 02:18 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 02:18 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]in my opinion the biggest mistake in metal history was when maiden fired paul dianno after the second album released.
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If they hadn't fired him, he would have destroyed maiden with his drinking and stuff. Bruce made Maiden bigger and best.
 
First of all, killers is my favorite album and i love the feel on the first 2 albums BUT, paul his voice wasn't good enough for the long term it's as simple as that. Bruce is just another sort of singer, way better with his technique so he CAN keep his voice in shape while on tour, paul just can't.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 02:57 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 02:57 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] In 1980 they were just one of many NWOBHM bands, which all sounded pretty much the same.  The best of the NWOBHM bands, but still, very similar sounding.  Listen to some Angel Witch, some Samson...you'll see what I mean.

Now, if you like the NWOBHM sound, that's great.  Otherwise, I think that - and record sales prove - that adding Bruce to the band was the match that lit the rocket they rode to superstardom.
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I disagree here. I love the energy of Iron Maiden and Killers and no, Maiden were exceptional even back then. Paul was a superb singer whose attitude and vocals made early Maiden a medley of Sabbath and Pistols (I agree on this).

Bruce is very different to Paul, but can you say he's done damage? For me he's one of the greatest vocalists in rock, even as a solo artist.

Record sales - this is just what damagedone points out as commercialism. Which is a naive way of judging music. You have to sell records and show tickets. But if you don't feel it, the crowd will never buy it - or just for a short time. And there must be someting about Bruce and Maiden that keeps attracting younger and younger fans, don't you think?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Jun 10 2005, 11:50 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Jun 10 2005, 11:50 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I disagree here. I love the energy of Iron Maiden and Killers and no, Maiden were exceptional even back then. Paul was a superb singer whose attitude and vocals made early Maiden a medley of Sabbath and Pistols (I agree on this).[/quote]

Which is the sound of NWOBHM. Like I said, Maiden was the best of the genre, which usually implies that they were exceptional.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Record sales - this is just what damagedone points out as commercialism. Which is a naive way of judging music. You have to sell records and show tickets. But if you don't feel it, the crowd will never buy it - or just for a short time. And there must be someting about Bruce and Maiden that keeps attracting younger and younger fans, don't you think?
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Which is what I meant by pointing at record sales. Also, let's note the fact that the *same* people are buying Maiden's albums. Like at Bruce's first English concert, the crowd started to chant "Bring back Paul!"...and then stopped around the end of the second song.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 03:45 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 03:45 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Which is the sound of NWOBHM.  Like I said, Maiden was the best of the genre, which usually implies that they were exceptional.
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I agree, no discussion if you put it this way.

[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 03:45 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 03:45 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Which is what I meant by pointing at record sales.  Also, let's note the fact that the *same* people are buying Maiden's albums.  Like at Bruce's first English concert, the crowd started to chant "Bring back Paul!"...and then stopped around the end of the second song.
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All I was trying to say is that some of the "same" fans tend to condemn Paul which is something I can't relate to. Is it either "Bring back Paul" or "Bruce and no other"? Of course, the post that started this is another extreme. But as much as I love Bruce, I also enjoy Paul on songs like Charlotte or Sanctuary or Murders. And his stamina, for that matter.
 
I for one think your're wrong. Bruce is better overall singer than Paul. And calling maiden a hair metal band... You must not know maiden that well.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Jun 10 2005, 04:46 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Jun 10 2005, 04:46 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I agree, no discussion if you put it this way.
All I was trying to say is that some of the "same" fans tend to condemn Paul which is something I can't relate to. Is it either "Bring back Paul" or "Bruce and no other"? Of course, the post that started this is another extreme. But as much as I love Bruce, I also  enjoy Paul on songs like Charlotte or Sanctuary or Murders. And his stamina, for that matter.
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It's important to note that the original two albums were written for Paul, not Bruce. Which is why Charlotte the Harlott 88 kinda blew. Paul is what got Maiden from the pub circuit in Britain to the world stage - so there is absolutely no reason to trash him, either.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 07:53 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 07:53 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's important to note that the original two albums were written for Paul, not Bruce.  Which is why Charlotte the Harlott 88 kinda blew. Paul is what got Maiden from the pub circuit in Britain to the world stage - so there is absolutely no reason to trash him, either.
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Which is not to say that Bruce didn't get some other songs right, like Remember Tomorrow or Iron Maiden.

Sorry about your dad BTW (hope this post doesn't get banned [!--emo&:unsure:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/unsure.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'unsure.gif\' /][!--endemo--] )
 
My dad?

No, of course it doesn't mean that. Bruce has nailed some songs from the first few albums, but I kinda cringe when he sings other ones.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 08:36 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 08:36 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]My dad?
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<LooseCannon> My dad was shot by the Canadian police because he didn't speak enough french.

[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 08:36 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 08:36 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]No, of course it doesn't mean that.  Bruce has nailed some songs from the first few albums, but I kinda cringe when he sings other ones.
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You might do some cringing during this new tour then [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] . I was overjoyed at the set.
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]<LooseCannon> My dad was shot by the Canadian police because he didn't speak enough french.[/quote]

And rightly so! Anyone who doesn't speak French should be shot. Let's start with the Quebecois and torture them so they die in agony for ignoring such a beautiful language! [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Jun 10 2005, 09:05 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Jun 10 2005, 09:05 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Uhm.  You realize that that was a joke?
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Well, I hope anyway...
 
paul looking and sounding punk was what made Maiden great in the early 80s. look at what the band performed in when they changed, they wore spandex and glam clothing. maiden may not be glam per se but the kind of music they did in the mid 80s was a bit on the cheesy side. oh and so what if paul did drugs? in the metal business, who hasn't?

to the poster who brought up the speeches made by bruce and blaze, well i don't think that's a positive. why bother wasting time screaming at the audience and fighting a big fake zombie when you should be giving the audience what they paid for- the music? btw, blaze was the guy who was hired and fired in the 90s right? i never heard the music he did with maiden but from what i hear those albums nearly put the band six feet under.

anyway i seem to have gotten my answer. i don't claim to be a maiden expert, as i said i haven't really listened to their later albums all the way through, but overall i respect the fact that they're a dedicated and popular band. i just think their music would have been much better if they had kept their punk vocalist.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]paul looking and sounding punk was what made Maiden great in the early 80s.  look at what the band performed in when they changed, they wore spandex and glam clothing.
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Judging a band based on the way they look is ridiculous. Who cares what they wear? It's the music that counts. Yes, the music on the first two albums is great, but Paul's 'punk sound' is only one element of that music - a very minor element.

[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]maiden may not be glam per se but the kind of music they did in the mid 80s was a bit on the cheesy side.
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From [a href=\'http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheesy&r=f\' target=\'_blank\']Urban Dictionary[/a], an online slang dictionary:

cheesy: sentimental, maudlin, melodramatic, corny

I suppose 'corny' is a matter of opinion, but I challenge you to name one Maiden song from the 80s which fits the other three adjectives. Many Maiden songs are dramatic (e.g. ROTAM), but that's not the same thing as melodramatic.

[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]oh and so what if paul did drugs?  in the metal business, who hasn't?
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Ted Nugent, for one. And from my observations, metalheads in general are much less likely to do hard drugs than fans of other genres. Reefer and alcohol, sure. Experimentation with hard drugs, sure. But how many metalhead crackhead or dopefiends can you name?

[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]to the poster who brought up the speeches made by bruce and blaze, well i don't think that's a positive.  why bother wasting time screaming at the audience and fighting a big fake zombie when you should be giving the audience what they paid for- the music?
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They don't scream at the audience, they speak to the audience as friends. For all the vitriolic rants Bruce has given, never was a single one of them directed against the audience. Furthermore, speaking to the audience between songs is considered to be good manners among musicians. And the 'big fake zombie' is part of the entertainment - some people like to get more than just music at a rock show. Perhaps you like bands who do nothing but play the songs in the most bare-bones way possible, but most people don't.

[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]btw, blaze was the guy who was hired and fired in the 90s right?  i never heard the music he did with maiden but from what i hear those albums nearly put the band six feet under. 
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Their commercial fortunes faded somewhat, yes. But the music itself was great.

[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 05:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]anyway i seem to have gotten my answer.  i don't claim to be a maiden expert, as i said i haven't really listened to their later albums all the way through, but overall i respect the fact that they're a dedicated and popular band.  i just think their music would have been much better if they had kept their punk vocalist.
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We've discussed this matter before in another thread that I can't find right now. I'll repeat what I posted there: as good as he was, Di'anno was technically limited as a singer. Keeping his in the band would have limited what they could have done. It wouldn't have worked with the direction that the band's writing was taking. Even Di'anno has said it was best for Maiden for him to leave.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-damage_done+Jun 10 2005, 11:38 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(damage_done @ Jun 10 2005, 11:38 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]paul looking and sounding punk was what made Maiden great in the early 80s.[/quote]
Wrong. Paul got their foot in the door to greatness. The tour with Kiss, for instance. And really, that was Rod Smallwood. The first Maiden tour where they didn't open: The Beast on the Road, 1982. The first #1 Maiden album: The Number of the Beast, 1982. The singer? Paul Bruce Dickinson.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]look at what the band performed in when they changed, they wore spandex and glam clothing.[/quote]
[a href=\'http://www.maidenfans.com/imc/?url=album02_killers/pictures02_killers&lang=eng&link=albums\' target=\'_blank\']Check out this page.[/a] There are two pictures, the last with Paul, and the first with Bruce. Notice how they're wearing the same bloody clothing. Besides, in the 80s, spandex rocked.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]maiden may not be glam per se but the kind of music they did in the mid 80s was a bit on the cheesy side.[/quote]
No, no, and no. Cheesy is Manowar. Cheesy is Sonata Arctica. Cheesy is some Hammerfall, and some Stratovarius. Cheesy is the same subject into the ground, and cheesy is the same subject done incredibly melodramatically. Maiden's music was intelligent after Paul. Subject matter like the Crimean War, Greek mythology, World War 2, global politics, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Alexander III, and Celtic legend.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]oh and so what if paul did drugs?  in the metal business, who hasn't?[/quote]
Steve Harris.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]to the poster who brought up the speeches made by bruce and blaze, well i don't think that's a positive.  why bother wasting time screaming at the audience[/quote]
I don't ever recall Bruce or Blaze screaming at the audience - except when they deserved it - on any of the bootlegs I've ever seen. I, for one, find Bruce's rants amusing and informative. There's a lot of history behind some of these songs, and it's quite nice of them to share it.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]and fighting a big fake zombie when you should be giving the audience what they paid for- the music?  [/quote]
Normally, in fact, always, the "battle with Eddie" takes place during the songs. So you get both. It just adds to the entertainment.
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]btw, blaze was the guy who was hired and fired in the 90s right?  i never heard the music he did with maiden but from what i hear those albums nearly put the band six feet under.[/quote]
The albums sold decently well, if not spectacularly. And the addition of Blaze to Iron Maiden is what saved the band, rather than sinking it. If they had've tried to continue with Bruce, it's likely that Steve would have quit.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]anyway i seem to have gotten my answer.  i don't claim to be a maiden expert, as i said i haven't really listened to their later albums all the way through, but overall i respect the fact that they're a dedicated and popular band.  i just think their music would have been much better if they had kept their punk vocalist.
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That's your right to think that. However, I think we should encourage you to go back and listen to the albums. Some, like you say, have a less punk sound. Some are darker, brooding. Some are brighter. Some have heavy synth, others don't. You're cutting away 11 great albums because there was a change.
 
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