Symbology

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
[img src=\'http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/57124-28.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /] [img src=\'http://www.cheguevara.itgo.com/images/che-guevara-soviet-union-flag-posterflag-4001883%5B1%5D_(1).jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]

The juxtapositon of those two flags is intentional. There's an old thread somewhere on this board that touched on the history of the swastika and how it originally symbolised a buch of happy things for different cultures around the globe. It is generally agreed, however, that the symbol has forever become associated with the atrocities committed by the Nazis.

I would argue the same holds true for the hammer and sickle. Originally, this was a symbol of the labour movements of the world. The hammer represented the urban workers, the sickle represented the rural farmers. It imagined, like the socialist movement, that the two would come together and create a better lot for all.
I believe the symbol, like the swastika, has been forever tarnished, though. The crimes against humanity committed by the Soviet Union are equal to those committed by Hitler and the Nazis. The Soviet Regime was a dictatorship just like the Nazi Germany, and both should be remembered for the evil mark they left upon the world. This symbol was plastered on every tank, stamped on every gun, and adorned the uniforms of some of the worst offenders against the basic God-given laws of humanity.

To me, the hammer and sickle will be forever associated with the slaughter of innocents, the oppression of millions, and the brutality of dictatorship. It is unfortunate that a symbol which originally was meant to promote human rights and human gains was stolen in such a manner, but it was stolen nonetheless.

As a Christian, and more importantly a human being, I find both equally disgusting. Anyone care to share your opinions?

(PS - I'm pre-emptively telling Onhell that I respect his beliefs and this post is not meant to offend and I'm sincerely sorry if it does)
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Apr 27 2005, 06:48 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Apr 27 2005, 06:48 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I believe the symbol, like the swastika, has been forever tarnished, though. The crimes against humanity committed by the Soviet Union are equal to those committed by Hitler and the Nazis. The Soviet Regime was a dictatorship just like the Nazi Germany, and both should be remembered for the evil mark they left upon the world.
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No... I'm afraid Duke, that I have to disagree with you.
Staline was a dictator, and only him commited crimes that could be somehow equal to those done by the Nazis, but which are not (equal).

I totally agree with you about the history of the hammer and the sickle, represented on the Soviet flag. But they do not represent horror.
Staline glued this disgusting image of the Soviets by his crimes, and his dictatorship. Killing humans, and opposing workers/artists/writers to his "regime" was one of his personal works.
Still this flag, my friend, represents the Soviets/Communists, and ONLY the Soviets/Communists, who aren't in any case represented by a man called Staline. Ppl brandish this flag proudly to express their feelings toward communism. Taking this particular case of these ppl, do you think they are representing horror ? Crimes ? Terrorism ? Death ? War ?
Well, I'd say no, but only communism.


Btw, as a european, and a human, I must admit that the Soviets saved a part of the world, a part of our continent, a part of our Europe, the Eastern-Europe. And I respect them for what they did, and for the sacrifice they made for the world and for us, so that we could live in peace. This is why we shouldn't put Soviets/Communists in the same bag with the Nazis, but maybe Staline with Hitler only for a part of his work (not all of it).

Note:I'm not a communist, nor a defender of communism and if I showed any lack of respect toward any kind of doctrine or person, pls tell me. Thank you.
 
I understand what you're saying, but I still disagree.

Because the crimes against humanity of Stalin's regime were committed in the name of the hammer and sickle, it has (sadly) become associated with them.

I think the people of the world who wish to express favourable views about socialism and communism should come up with a different symbol. This one has far too much bad history associated with it, and in my eyes it detracts from the legitamcy of their cause.


But I respect your opinion, mate:)

PS- I would credit the Russian people, not the soviet regime, with liberating Eastern Europe from the Nazis. When things were at their worst, with Nazis surrounding Moscow and Stalingrad, they did not fight for communism or for Stalin, they fought to defend their homes and Motherland.
 
Stalin was pretty good about working them up, too. In the speech he gave from the Kremlin a week after the German invasion, he invoked the name of every single Russian hero - pre, post, and anti-Revolution. He legalized the church so it could help.

But Duke, don't forget the other diasporas under Soviet control...it wasn't just Russians - Georgians, Ukranians, Belorussians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Kazaks...all those other people from "Stans"...
 
I like the one to the right [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Seriously though, I must agree with duke, Stalin performed attrocities against HIS OWN PEOPLE, whether it was Russians or other soviets, his attrocities are only equaled if not surpased by Hitlers. And 7th death I side with Duke on this one, blaming stalin IS blaming communism just like blaming Hitler IS blaming the nazis. They made the desicions while rank and file had to follow orders. And don't worry Duke I am not offended at all, I've explained myself before so I won't again, just it has a different meaning to me that's all.
 
May I add that Stalin persecuted the Jews as well as his own people, and killed many more than Hitler (he had more time, as the international community let him do his evil deeds until he finally -- thankfully! -- died).


For some reason, the Jews were the victims of both right- and left-extremisms. They've been hated throughout History for no apparent reason, well to my eyes anyway.

Has anybody got any historic insight for the age-old hatred of Jews? (and don't tell me that it's because the Church said that they killed Jesus. The man was a Jew himself -- which makes me wonder why the Jews feel more Jewish, and the Christians are supposed to be different... [!--emo&:blink:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--] )
 
I've read a few books on ancient Jewish/Hebrew history, particularly regarding the development of their religion. The consensus of the experts seems to be:

The Hebrews originated in a polytheistic world. Their god, Yahweh, appears to have originated as a god of storms and war in a polytheistic pantheon. As long as the Hebrews chose to worship Yahweh only, the rest of the world had no problem with them. Polytheism is generally a tolerant philosophy, and if one group chose to favor one god then everything was cool.

However, most polytheists believed that a war/storm god was not enough to ensure a successful life. The fertility gods Baal and Asherah were considered more essential. Even most Hebrews worshipped these other gods; that's a huge part of why the biblical prophets were always popping up and causing trouble. The prophets didn't like polytheism.

Eventually, Hebrew beliefs changed from "Yahweh is the most powerful god and the only one worth worshipping" into "Yahweh is the ONLY god, and all the others are figments of your imagination". This was equivalent to atheism in the ancient world. Denying the power of the fertility gods was believed to be dangerous to the harvest, and thus to society as a whole.

The final straw was when Hebrew kings made it a law that Yahweh was the only god. Most people in Canaan rebelled against that ... just like most ancient Egyptians rebelled against Akhenaton when he tried to enforce worship of the sun god only. In other words, the Hebrew state became a theocracy and a whole lot of people became upset.

So the Hebrews, having formally and legally installed monotheism as part of their nation, were now true Jews as we understand the term today. But in the process, they abridged the religious freedom of non-Jews in their land and threatened the natural order by denying the fertility gods. Next thing you know, the natives start getting restless and pretty soon the ancient Palestinians strongly dislike the ancient Jews.

It's worth noting that two other notable polytheistic cultures - Greece and Rome - had no problem with the Jewish religion, but this is because they weren't direct neighbors of the Jews during the ancient Hebrew period. Sure, the Romans at one point ruled the Jews, but they allowed the Jews to practice their own religion as long as it didn't threated Roman authority.

Finally, there's the issue of land. The Hebrews came up from Egypt and violently took possession of Canaan. The biblical details are almost certainly exaggerated, but there's no doubt that the Hebrews waged violent war in the name of Yahweh. Modern Israeli behavior is little (if any) better. The Jewish idea of a "promised land" is a concept that can only cause trouble, just like "manifest destiny" made pioneer-era Americans all too willing to kill the natives.

Mount Moriah in Jerusalem (also known as the Temple Mount) is considered sacred by all three major monotheistic faiths. Everyone wants the whole pie, instead of just a piece. The current situation there seems stable for now, but people have been waging wars over that hill for 4000 years. Sooner or later, Jerusalem will be war-torn again. It's not imminent, it may not even happen in our lifetimes, but it will happen.

I hope that answered a bit of your question, Mav. I'm also sure that Onhell probably has some good information on this subject.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-7th Death of a 7th Death+Apr 27 2005, 01:19 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(7th Death of a 7th Death @ Apr 27 2005, 01:19 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I shall add that the "they" (in They killed him) is refered to the jewish priests who wanted The Christ dead.
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No, not entirely. In one of the gospels (I'm too lazy to look up the exact verse), when Pilate is deciding whether or not he should kill Jesus, the Jewish mob says, "His blood be on us, and on our children." This specific verse was used as a justification for anti-Semitism by medieval Christians, who widely believed that the entire Jewish race was to blame for killing Jesus.

However, this particular attitude was mostly gone by the time of Hitler and Stalin, so I doubt it applies to discussions of modern holocausts.

Here's another historical cause of anti-Semitism: Jews have been involved with the control of money for hundreds of years. This is because usury (or as we call it today, loan-sharking) was considered to be a serious sin by medieval Catholics. So it was the Jews who handled all the dirty money, and they eventually built that up into financial power. And anytime you have a group of people with power, some other people will come to hate them.

True, the Knights Templar (a supposedly Catholic organization) is often credited with creating banking. But their treasuries were only open to the very rich. When an ordinary man needed money, he had to go to a Jew.
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here's another historical cause of anti-Semitism: Jews have been involved with the control of money for hundreds of years. This is because usury (or as we call it today, loan-sharking) was considered to be a serious sin by medieval Catholics. So it was the Jews who handled all the dirty money, and they eventually built that up into financial power. And anytime you have a group of people with power, some other people will come to hate them.[/quote]


I couldn't have put it better, SMX
 
Well anti-semitism finds its roots in all of that... the killing Christ issue (which i find ridiculous), the SUPPOSED control of money (Jews have always been a minority population so the part they did "control" still wasn't much) but more than anything their isolationist outlook. To Orthodox Jews there are only Jews and everyone else and Jews stick together, several rulers were fine with that as long as they paid taxes, in other words Jews were a nation within a nation claiming alliegence to no one but God. Of course with the Enlightment, Modernity and the Industrial revolution that changed and hence the ever popular "Jewish Question". What to do with a group that doesn't want to be part of your new country and wants to be left alone? Their isolation and stubborness was yet another factor for anti-semetism. Look at this way, you are in a group of say 10 people and one says "let's go bowling!" 8 say "alright" 2 say "nah leave us out of it" and for everything the group suggests these two folks keep being somewhat anti-social... eventually those 2 will come to be hated by the 8.

On a seperate note: Why the "they killed Jesus" reason is Moronic.
IT HAD TO HAPPEN! GEEES if Christ isn't crucified and dies he can't resurrect, if he doesn't resurrect YOU DON'T HAVE CHRISTIANITY! AAAAAHHHHRRRRGGGG. It is moronic to blame a group of people for something that had to happen and most importantly, what your entire religion is based on... the death and resurrection of Jesus. nuf said.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Apr 28 2005, 02:23 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Apr 28 2005, 02:23 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]

On a seperate note: Why the "they killed Jesus" reason is Moronic.
IT HAD TO HAPPEN! GEEES if Christ isn't crucified and dies he can't resurrect, if he doesn't resurrect YOU DON'T HAVE CHRISTIANITY! AAAAAHHHHRRRRGGGG. It is moronic to blame a group of people for something that had to happen and most importantly, what your entire religion is based on... the death and resurrection of Jesus. nuf said.


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The problem between between Jews and Christians didn't really come from that. In the first centuries, they used to live in peace. In the beginning Christians were more or less considered as a Jewish sect and that they followed the rules and rites of Judaism. The main problem is that Jews and Christians were trying to convert in the same areas and Christians were preaching in the synagogues. (Can you imagine nowadays a priest preaching in a mosque or an iman preaching in a synagogue [!--emo&:blink:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blink.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ). It led the two communities to feel a lot of animosity against each other. It's only later when the dogma of the deity of Jesus was established that the Christians accused the Jews of being deicide which , of course, added to their hatred of the Jews.


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]  but more than anything their isolationist outlook. To Orthodox Jews there are only Jews and everyone else and Jews stick together, several rulers were fine with that as long as they paid taxes, in other words Jews were a nation within a nation claiming alliegence to no one but God. Of course with the Enlightment, Modernity and the Industrial revolution that changed and hence the ever popular "Jewish Question". What to do with a group that doesn't want to be part of your new country and wants to be left alone? Their isolation and stubborness was yet another factor for anti-semetism. Look at this way, you are in a group of say 10 people and one says "let's go bowling!" 8 say "alright" 2 say "nah leave us out of it" and for everything the group suggests these two folks keep being somewhat anti-social... eventually those 2 will come to be hated by the 8. [/quote]

The Torah is at the same time their weakness and their strength. Weakness because as you said it isolate them from the rest of a nation. But it's also their strength because without the Torah that kept them united in a unique religion they would probably have soon disappeared after the Exile.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-syl+Apr 28 2005, 12:17 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Apr 28 2005, 12:17 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The problem between between Jews and Christians didn't really come from that. In the first centuries, they used to live in peace.
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Well, the matter at had is Medieval to Modern strains of anti-semetism... which does find it's logic in "Christ killers" etc.... but you're right
[!--QuoteBegin-syl+Apr 28 2005, 12:17 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Apr 28 2005, 12:17 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Torah is at the same time their weakness and their strength. Weakness because as you said it isolate them from the rest of a nation. But it's also their strength because without the Torah that kept them united in a unique religion they would probably have soon disappeared after the Exile.
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Exaaactly [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--] me loves the homer simpson
 
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