Question for Germans

[IronDuke]

Hey meine Freunde! Ich habe a question for y'all.

What is the procedure for using the formal (Sie) and informal (du) pronouns and conjugations? Is the formal ever used sarcastically, like the "sir" or "Mr. Smith" is in English? (i.e. You, sir, are a complete idiot.) Would you use it with a university professor or school teacher?
In English we got confuzed and said "F**k this!" to the whole idea of formality just after Shakespeare died. The second person singular pronoun, you, is actually the formal form of address. The informal, equivilent to "du", was "thou" (and verbs were conjugated using the "st" ending, just like German!). Ironically, this is now used by the uninformed to seem more formal (though usually only in historical reproductions, melodrama, and satire.)

A girl I knew from Baden once said it was considered a big deal when your boy/girlfriend's parents tell you it's ok to use the informal pronoun with them. How do they go about this? Is there a party afterwards, like some weird bar mitzvah with sausages?

I can just imagine the awkwardness in even bringing such a thing up....
Joe (greeting his girlfriend's dad): Hello sir! How are you this evening? (Where's your daughter?)
Mr Smith: Hello Joe. It's good to see you again!
Joe: Is Sarah ready to go the the moving picture show? (I'm horny)
Mr Smith: Not yet. By the way, you are no longer required to call me Mr. Smith.
Joe. Ummm.....ok. Thanks....you. (Joe, being too obsessed with having sex with Sarah neglected to learn Mr. Smith's first name when they they were introduced 18 months ago.)
Mr Smith: Remember, young man, I have a very extensive collection of poisonous toads in my basement.
Joe: Yes, sir, Mr Smith. I have nothing but honourable intentions. (Joe resolves then to use a condom tonight)
Mr Smith: Good lad.

 

[Anonymous]

The formal Sie is to be used in any case, when in doubt -when talking to adults. You invariably use Du when talking to children.

For example, when talking to a professor, police officer, or any person you just met, it is strongly advised that you use Sie, because Du is considered offensive in that case.

If you are having a steady business relationship with someone, it depends. With co-workers, it usually helps to break down barriers when using Du. It gives the relationship an easier and friendlier tone. When talking to someone in a higher rank, you should wait until (s)he uses the Du first.

With friends, you use Du. There are exceptions, but these can be compared to older people referring to their friends as "Mr. Smith" instead of "Adrian", for example.

With perfect strangers, you always use Sie. That is a code of respect. There are exceptions, however. For example, if you are in a bar which is attended by younger people, and the waiter/waitress is around your age, you can use Du. Likewise, if I go to a record store wearing my Maiden shirt and the vendor wears a Maiden shirt too, I use Du as well. And basically, if anyone (except, perhaps, a teacher) adresses you with Du, you are expected to do the same.

If you adress someone with Du, you invariably also adress them with their first name ("Du, Herr Smith" is plain wrong). If you adress someone with Sie, you usually use their last name ("Sie, Herr Smith"), though there is an occasional exception.

So, in general, Du usually suggests a more informal, personal and friendly relation, whereas Sie is formal and usually suggests a more distant relation.

To give it a bit more flesh: If Iron Duke went to Germany and met Perun, Perun would be either amused, uneasy or maybe even offended if Duke adressed him with "Sie" or "Herr Perun". However, if Duke is caught by the police, it is a very bad idea if he adressed the officers with "Du"- that is regarded as a serious sign of lack of respect.

If Duke had a German girlfriend, he should better adress her parents with "Sie" first. He would always have to wait for them to offer the "Du". That is simply a social rule. If Duke went to the parents straight away and said "Du", that would really be a serious offense.

 

[Anonymous]

What about Perun meeting Serratia and talking in German?

Very nice reply indeed. It would also be interesting to know the details of usage in other languages/countries, because, obviously, it's not only German that it applies to.

In my country, for example, elementary school pupils are addressed informally by their teachers, but as soon as they enter highschool, at the age of 15, that is, they are addressed formally. That usually makes them feel 'honoured'.

 

[Anonymous]

What about Perun meeting Serratia and talking in German?

Well, you can guess

In my country, for example, elementary school pupils are addressed informally by their teachers, but as soon as they enter highschool, at the age of 15, that is, they are addressed formally. That usually makes them feel 'honoured'.

It's the same in Germany. It never made me feel honoured, in fact, I was always very annoyed by it. And I still am. I usually hate being adressed to with Sie, except maybe when it's some sort of official occasion and there is a need for formalities (or if I really hate the person who talks to me). But if it's a co-worker, teacher/professor or anything like that... I can't stand it.

 

[Anomica]

In Sweden we had a similar system as in Germany up until the 60s. Then they had something called the "you reform" and everybody started saying Du (you singular) instead of Ni (you plural and/or formal). Today, many younger people use the formal adress to "honor" the older who most often get really annoyed What's interesting (I think) is that the royal family obviously are adressed formally, with "The King" or "Your majesty", but when a journalist asks our prime minister, Göran Persson, something it's never "Mr Persson" - it's Göran. A bit like if Tom Brokaw (only name I could think of) adressed George Bush with "Geroge" instead of Mr President. Swedish formality is more in the use of social spacing and a knack for "seeing through" somebody, rather than adressing them formally. But then, we're a bit odd (better I say it first )

 

[IronDuke]

Thanks for the reply, Per. Just to clarify - Do you usually just wait for the older (or higher ranked) person to use "Du" in conversation, and then it's considered ok for you to use it too? Or do they actually say "You may now use "du" when addressing me?"

Sweden may be odd, but you have incredibly hot women. I just hope my girlfriend doesn't read this!
In English, we have a weird system (if you can even call it that) which most of you seem to have down pretty well. Teachers usually address their pupils by their first name (e.g. Johnny, take your seat!) . However, older ones (and younger ones who like to be formal and respectful) sometimes will use the pupil's surname once he or she hits High School (e.g. Smith, do you know the answer?) Sometimes they'll even use Mr./Ms. before the surname, though this is increasingly rare. In public schools teachers are ALWAYS Mr./Mrs./Ms. Lastname. Often a teacher will face disciplinary action from his/her principal if they let students call them by their first name. It's considered respectful.

In universities, many professors have taken to letting students address them by their first name.
I hate this and don't practice it. Anyone who attains such an honoured position, to me, is always Dr. Smith, or usually Professor Smith. (Not all professors have doctorates, but for those who do the titles are interchangable)

With 95% of my friends, I use first names, but there are a few for whom we use surnames, only because there are too many people with the same first name. Most people don't use any formality with strangers anymore, though I try to use it all the time. It shows, to me at least, a touch of civility which is often lacking. Even the clerk at the grocery store is "Ma'am" to me. It often impresses people, and you get much better service.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply, Per. Just to clarify - Do you usually just wait for the older (or higher ranked) person to use "Du" in conversation, and then it's considered ok for you to use it too? Or do they actually say "You may now use "du" when addressing me?"

Usually, yes. There are exceptions, but usually, you can tell. Sometimes, people even explicitly say "we can use 'du' if you don't mind" - I had such a case today.

 

[Anomica]

A question for the North Americans on this board:
Is it only in movies, or do you regularly call your teachers (at least from High school on up) professor? Regardless of academic rank? In Sweden, only a academic professor is "Professor", i.e Masters degree => doctorate => publishing and academic prowess etcetera...

 

[IronDuke]

In all Canadian universities I've seen, to actually hold the rank of Professor (or Associate/Assistant/ Professor), you need a doctorate degree. Otherwise you're classified as a "Lecturer" or "Instructor" or something like that.
However, all people who teach at a university are usually addressed as "Professor Smith" by students as a sign of respect.
Sometimes a professor who also has a doctorate (about 80-90% of most faculties) will prefer to be called "Dr. Smith", to avoid being mistaken for a lowly lecturer.