November 11

I

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
November 11th marks the 86th anniversary of the armistice that ended the Great War. It was to be “the war to end all wars” – a title which has thus far proven untrue. Millions needlessly died in combat on both sides, and countless more from disease and circumstance.
In Canada (and undoubtedly other nations as well), November 11th is known as “Remembrance Day”. We remember those who gave their lives in defence of our country and of freedom – World War I, World War II, Korea, UN Peacekeeping missions (like Bosnia and Kosovo), and most recently Afghanistan. We do not celebrate the wars, rather we remember the sacrifices made by our countrymen so that we may live in peace. Lest we forget.

I post this here because this is a truly international forum – Canadians, Germans, Frenchmen, Americans, Britons, and scores of other nationalities visit this forum on a daily basis, and we all get along in relative harmony…..perhaps there is yet hope for humanity.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them.
 
Thanks to all the servicemen who have given their life for peace and for everyone in the world. May you always be remembered.
 
[img src=\'http://erik.nerim.net/photo/poppy/pictures/20.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]
 
In some french calendars, this day is called "Victory 1918".

I don't like this. [!--emo&:angry:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/mad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'mad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
I don't think it was a victory, for anyone. It's good to celebrate an end of a war, but - and for this one in particular - I don't want to celebrate a "victory" : who has finally won in this conflict ? Many of the horrors of the 20th century were occured by this "victory", called "dictat" by germans : I think that they were not far from the truth...
 
World War I was absolutely horrific (worse than WW2 in many aspects) so all the men who made the ultimate sacrifice for the good of their country, may you rest in peace. We won't forget you or what you did for us today.
 
Haven't we forgotten?

Haven't we as a human race forgotten the sacrifices of millions? Millions upon millions? Let's have some numbers.

British Empire in World War 1: Dead: 908,371. Wounded: 2,090,212.
France in World War 1: Dead: 1,375,800. Wounded: 3,620,000.
Italy in World War 1: Dead: 650,000. Wounded: 947,000.
USA in World War 1: Dead: 126,000. Wounded: 234,000.
Russia in World War 1: Dead: 1,700,000. Wounded: 4,950,000.
Germany in World War 1: Dead: 1,773,000. Wounded: 4,216,058.
Austria-Hungary in World War 1: Dead: 1,200,000. Wounded: 3,620,000.

World War 2 fatalities:
Soviet Union: 8,668,000.
Germany: 3,250,000.
Japan: 1,506,000.
China: 1,324,000.
Poland: 850,000.
Rumania: 520,000.
Austria: 380,000.
France: 340,000.
Italy: 330,000.
Great Britain: 326,000.
Canada: 42,000.
Australia: 39,000.
India: 36,000.
New Zealand: 12,000.
South Africa: 9,000
Commonwealth Fatalities: 464,000.



That's just numbers. We're not talking conditions. We haven't discussed the civilians. If you see a veteran, thank him or her on bended knee - they're the reason we have such liberal things as the Internet.

And for God's sake (or H's sake, or whoever's sake), if they have a story to tell, as some may...listen. If we listened to our veterans, if a certain President of the United States listened to his veterans, we wouldn't be where we are, globally.

Remember...
 
Actually many people have forgotten. The only reason I know about WWI is because of this site. I knew NOTHING about WWI except that there was one but was greatly overshadowed by WWII and the Nazis. Now I know about our little-known friend Franz Ferdinand (and NOT because of the band with the same name) and Paschendale among other facts and factoids. I don't know where I heard this but, WWI and WWII are in reality ONE World War with a 20 minute intermission that began with one shot (the assasination of Franz Ferdinand) and ended with a shot (Hiltler's suicide).
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Nov 9 2004, 04:06 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Nov 9 2004, 04:06 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't know where I heard this but, WWI and WWII are in reality ONE World War with a 20 minute intermission that began with one shot (the assasination of Franz Ferdinand) and ended with a shot (Hiltler's suicide).
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For some odd reason, I live with the impression that that last shot is yet to be fired.
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't know where I heard this but, WWI and WWII are in reality ONE World War with a 20 minute intermission that began with one shot (the assasination of Franz Ferdinand) and ended with a shot (Hiltler's suicide).  [/quote]


That thesis has been put forth by many not-so-professional historians. But when one studies the Weimar period (1919-1933), one can see that at the time Germany could have been saved. To suggest that the rise of a madman like Hitler in Germany was inevitable is to do a great injustice to the German people.

Was the Versailles Treaty harsh? Yes. But the Allied powers were in the process of revising it in Germany's favour when the Great Depression hit.....I could go on and on...suffice to say, they are two seperate conflicts, and you shouldn't look at the period in between soley for how it led to the Nazi Era.

As Leopold von Ranke said in the 1850s, history should be studied wie es eigentlich gewesen...
 
Well LC I think I actually heard it on the History channel (i'm addicted to that thing!) and I agree with perun, we are yet to see a war to end all wars. s for the view I discribed I know it is very simplistic and when you simplify the message is bound to get deluded and become erroneous, but sadly it is the easiest way to comprehend it if you don't know much of it to begin with.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Nov 9 2004, 01:51 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Nov 9 2004, 01:51 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If you see a veteran, thank him or her on bended knee
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Not an easy thing : here in France, there are only 15 veterans of the first world war ! [!--emo&:(--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Tons of French fought in the Second - remember, it was a French army that liberated Alsace-Lorraine.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Nov 9 2004, 01:51 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Nov 9 2004, 01:51 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If you see a veteran, thank him or her on bended knee - they're the reason we have such liberal things as the Internet.
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That's quite easy for a non-German to do...
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Nov 11 2004, 07:36 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Nov 11 2004, 07:36 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]That's quite easy for a non-German to do...
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Well, if I wanted, I Could thank a lot of Germans every summer, but I choose not to....
My great-grandfather fought the Germans during WWII, so he's still rather sceptical everytime he sees one. According to him it's just a matter of time before you (they) start a new world war.......
It has to be mentioned that he's 84 years old and rather senile
 
Sixty years later, we can look back on the horrors of World War 2 and do exactly what people did in 1946 - divide the world up into "good" and "evil". How many people decided that the horrors of Auschwitz belonged to every German? How many people jumped to the conclusion that every German soldier fought for Hitler, fought for facism? Too many.

The fact of the matter is, 19 of every 20 German soldiers were conscripts, boys and men swept from their homes, handed a gun, and told to fight. Some were Nazis, or members of the party, but that alone doesn't make you evil in a one party state, or unusual. The majority of "evildoers" were Hitler's staff, and the SS he used to carry out his genocidal whims.

In Canada, Remembrance Day is for everyone, of any nationality. "For he today who sheds his blood with me shall be my brother." - Shakespeare, Henry V. To condemn a soldier for the politics of his leader is wrong; these men shared the same trenches, the same conditions, the same death and devastation that visited their enemies. Bravery should be remembered, and honoured. Germany has a strong military tradition, and it's not always been placed in the hands of immoral men.

Germans bleed the same blood and feel the same feelings as every other person on this planet. Why shouldn't they deserve the same recognition as that of other men who took up arms in the name of their flag?

Finally: a nation that scorns its veterans scorns its history. If we forget our history, we're doomed to repeat it. Look at America, a nation that tucked away its Vietnam veterans and tried their very best to forget about them. Aren't they just into another quagmire?
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]World War 2 fatalities:
Soviet Union: 8,668,000.
Germany: 3,250,000.
Japan: 1,506,000.
China: 1,324,000.
Poland: 850,000.
Rumania: 520,000.
Austria: 380,000.
France: 340,000.
Italy: 330,000.
Great Britain: 326,000.
Canada: 42,000.
Australia: 39,000.
India: 36,000.
New Zealand: 12,000.
South Africa: 9,000
Commonwealth Fatalities: 464,000.
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Roughly 295,000 Americans died as well.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Nov 11 2004, 10:46 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Nov 11 2004, 10:46 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Sixty years later, we can look back on the horrors of World War 2 and do exactly what people did in 1946 - divide the world up into "good" and "evil".  How many people decided that the horrors of Auschwitz belonged to every German?  How many people jumped to the conclusion that every German soldier fought for Hitler, fought for facism?  Too many.
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All to true. I saw a show on the Berlin Wall the other day and of the 5,000 (roughly) that escaped from Eat to West Germany a lot of them were border guards. That's right, the dudes hired to keep people from crossing crossed themselves many times helping other civilians escape. I keep thinking... all that money that went into building that stupid wall could have been used renovating East germany and actually paying people good wages so they wouldn't be as tempted to go to the west.... oh well.
 
Well, a lot of things had been said here about the first and second world war. I'd like to add that there are wars that had to be fought. The IIWW or the independence wars of 19 and 20th century, for example. Other wars will be fought and they will need to be fought.

But other wars were are and will be pure stupidity, like vietnam, the IWW, irak, etc.

War will never be erradicated. It sucks but it's true. It's humman nature and human stupidity, both things seem to be conected....
 
No war *had* to be fought. It's all a choice that the leaders of the time made. There are some who believe in peace - at any cost.

Yes, some wars are more ridiculous than others. Some have a greater moral character to victory. But I refuse, I absolutely REFUSE, to dishonour those who fought in wars that were not to mankind's advantage, but to a man's advantage. We call upon these people to sacrifice their lives so that we may be safe from other nations. Its their sacrifice so that we might have security. And if they are sent to die - for any reason - they are sent in the IDEA that they are serving us. Even Germans in World War 2 went to fight to serve Germany, and the German people. That's why you have to honour veterans. Not because they fought against or for freedom...not because they battled facism or Communism...but because they fought.
 
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