It's a terrible, terrible album that Nightwish should be embarrassed to have released. The fact that they aren't is worrying for the future of the band.
NIGHTWISH ALBUM RANKING GAME: #8 REVEALED
- Thread starter Mosh
- Start date
It was a reasonably successful album right? I think it sold well and in the mainstream press I've mostly only seen positive reviews. They also toured it pretty extensively. It seems to me like the Floor era has taken them to new levels of popularity, at least in the USA. I think there is a really good chance they go all in on that album's direction and that becomes the standard for Nightwish as it is clearly working for them.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
I think a lot of it also has to do with many of their modern fans not first getting into albums like Oceanborn or Wishmaster, let alone Once or Dark Passion Play. A lot of the younger fans came onboard during and for the Floor era, so they’re more into the artsy-fartsy new concepts and not down for the rocket blasting that they did back in the day. It really blows my mind as someone who every album from Nightwish to see the old fans complain about the new stuff and the new fans write off the old stuff. Nightwish didn’t get to their modern form overnight, it was a gradual process, but if you toggle between Oceanborn and H/N it’s shocking how different they sound. They appeal to different audiences for different reasons.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
I agree with this from the musical point of view - even nowadays, in hindsight the biggest jump was inarguably between Century Child and Once (I still recall the complaints about the "Evanescentisation" of the band back in the day); everywhere else the transition's been rather smooth and foreshadowed - but I strenuously declare that the shift in lyrics, image, concepts in the Floor era has been very jarring and the discontinuity is certainly present, almost palpable there.
Which isn't helped by the fact they've been bleeding bandmembers as well. You might probably still call it gradual (since they release an album only every five years or so), but as someone who genuinely loves the Anette era as well (and even welcomed Floor and was kinda hyped about EFMB at first), I insist the band isn't the same band anymore, in fact it's not even a band anymore, as with Emppu giving off the burnt-out vibes for some time now, it's mostly "Tuomas & his hired guns", honestly.
All the good to you if you like the product, really, I respect that, but I find your bafflement at the older fans' bafflement rather weird; even liking the new era, you must know what we're talking about.
I personally deeply love the reunion era of Maiden - it's my favourite era, definitely - I could imagine keeping everything in their discography since 1999 and burning all the rest for evermore... but I can definitely see where some of the older fans get lost, with all the acoustic intros, every song being ten minutes, the X-factorish dourness, Bruce's shift in vocals and so on. And that's a band that still has all the iconic members and whose image hasn't shifted all that drastically since the 90s (the X Factor to be precise).
It's a pretty common thing in Metal these days imo, you can see a similar phenomenon with bands like Leprous, Gojira, and Symphony X. Some of these bands weren't touring much early on and the early albums aren't widely known/available, but have picked up in popularity significantly in the last decade with a legion of new fans who, understandably, skew more toward liking the new material.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
I agree as far as image goes, the sudden deep dive into science was a bit out of left-field, but at the same time when you've got songs like "A Return to the Sea", "Lappi", "Last of the Wilds", etc in your discography, it doesn't seem quite as extreme to go down this route lyrically. But I can concede that not having been a fan during the shift might mean my perception is colored by hindsight.
No I 100% agree with this. This is why I'm currently having mixed feelings going into Yesterwynde. I was in high school when Human. :||: Nature. dropped, and it was during the pandemic when I got really into biking, so all these artsy nature songs were perfect for me. Now I'm working retail and a lot more cynical about Tuomas and Troy waxing poetic about themselves. The band has definitely changed and I'm a bit pensive about just where they're headed. Maybe I just missed the disappointment everyone else has by an album or two, who knows?
Maybe I'm not good at explaining myself but my bafflement lies less in "I don't understand how you don't like modern Nightwish!" because of course the sound has changed and it's not for everyone, I get that. My bafflement lies in comments like LC's about how this is a "terrible, terrible album that Nightwish should be embarrassed to have released". This is where I really just don't get it. Nothing about this record is offensive unless you actually find the entire concept offensive. Musically this feels pretty inoffensive, which can also be its biggest weakness in a sense. Like, I just feel there's a difference between being bored by something and being repulsed by something. I'm baffled by the extreme repulsion on a musical level.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Yeah, but despite me being a neoclassical bloke by nature and despite me usually preferring prog to other things, I certainly see the difference in their new era since Paradise Lost (or the first half of Odyssey, since there's where the biggest shift happened) ... and, shameful as I am to admit it, there are moments I tend to prefer it myself.
(though I'd argue it's not the last decade - they hardly had an album in the last decade; it's more like the last two decades, but that's just their studio laziness
)
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
...also in not really getting why Human. :||: Nature. felt out of left field for so many people when to me it was a natural continuation. But this discussion has been really interesting and a little elucidating even if I don't 100% agree with everyone.
Yea last two decades in the case of Symphony X. The Odyssey was the first album they did significant touring for which gave them a little bit of a bump (thanks in no small part to high profile spots on the Megadeth and Dream Theater festivals). Generally though I think the last decade has seen a bit of a market expansion for Metal bands, particularly non-extreme ones. Maybe due to social media, maybe due to legacy bands slowly phasing out of festivals, maybe something else. But I do see a sort of "second wind" happening for a lot of bands like Nightwish that have actually been around for a fairly long time.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
(sorry for being personal below, skip it if necessary)
I don't mind either science or nature, in fact, I think I would rather love that (I am a huge fan of similar concepts with some Czech bands and I am a huge fan of ... say, Angra's Holy Land as well), it's the fact that Tuomas has suddenly decided to preach.
I'm sorry to put it this way, but I really can't say it otherwise. Sorry, sorry sorry.
Fake humility aside - I'm smarter than him, more well-read than him and admitting the fact I might not be here very long (I'm battling thoughts of death and memento moris nearly every day now) and trying to suffuse myself with 3000 years of philosophy, I might also even be a tad wiser than him (despite it probably not showing on this forum). That's not to aggrandise me, I'm definitely not a better person or anything (in fact, I'm rather terrible), but even I'm not as obnoxious with my preaching.
Thing is, fuck you, Holopainen, you have nothing. You have nothing to preach about. I don't care about your tuppence wisdom. Dawkins is so stupid, I have seen atheists distancing themselves from him, since they don't want to be counted in that society. Since I'm not 15, you won't awe me with your quotes of Dawkins (try Hitchens at least, you fucker).
You're a fucking MUSICIAN. ENTERTAIN ME. I didn't ask you to preach. To TELL ME THE TRUTH. Intentionally. Explicitly.
Sorry, I've been feeling somewhat unwell these past few days and I've been relistening to these last Nightwish albums and I'm just... dunno. Sorry for being so personal and honest. But he kinda pisses me off.
Okay, I might have understood that wrongly.
Yeah, I understand Loosey's sentiment in that regard as "bland is the worst offence". He feels they've become shallow (as I have, honestly) and that's more embarassing than doing some bollocks for fun. Dunno, maybe I misunderstood him.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Sorry for being so bitter above, I'm kinda wavering between deleting that and keeping it for the posterity, anyway, I wanted to say why I actually like, say, Arjen Lucassen and hate current-era Holopainen. I might look like a condescending cunt, but so does he, I guess we're even then.
I was willing to take the certain obnoxiousness of EFMB, including the certain musical regurgitation there, as a part of a fresh start, trying to open a new chapter, easing Floor in and so on.
Once H:N came out and it was even more pretentious, the music became in a way blander or drowned in failed experiments, Marco was just as non-present as on the last album and so on, it retrospectively kinda "jumped the shark" for me. Sometimes, those things explode within you in hindsight.
I was willing to take the certain obnoxiousness of EFMB, including the certain musical regurgitation there, as a part of a fresh start, trying to open a new chapter, easing Floor in and so on.
Once H:N came out and it was even more pretentious, the music became in a way blander or drowned in failed experiments, Marco was just as non-present as on the last album and so on, it retrospectively kinda "jumped the shark" for me. Sometimes, those things explode within you in hindsight.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Here's the thing - I think you and I actually agree with the exception that I still like the music. I like how Tuomas writes, pretentious or not, because it's interesting and I feel something. At the same time, I also feel like he doesn't really add anything new to a discussion, just manages to link it well with the music to create a neat little capsule that I like. Take "Tribal". I agree 100% with everything he writes in that song. At the same time, it's not like he really wrote anything higher than a high schooler would. So I can rock out to it just fine, but there's a part of me that's like, "Yes, I agree, but what more do you have to add to the discussion?" (I acknowledge that your take on "Tribal" is very distant from agreement but I think it's nought for us to discuss this further because we both know where each of us stands on religion.)
Again, I still like the music even if it doesn't go as deep as it could. But the rest of the band playing up their image is what makes me roll my eyes. Floor saying that every night is a night to remember, Troy calling everyone "beautiful, beautiful people", like shut the fuck up with that hippie bullshit. Tuomas is just as bad, if not worse - take this promo opening for instance:
...it's like, Jesus Christ dude, thanks for coming out of the cabin for the first time in a year, now could you touch some grass while you're out here?
I don't mind all this in the music. In fact, I think it's cool that Tuomas can write a song about music, about endlessness, sharing stories like Eugene Shoemaker's, etc. But the image they've built for themselves especially since Troy joined is just so fucking annoying.
Putting the following in spoilers cuz I don't wanna accidentally start something:
I like "Greatest Show on Earth", I like Dawkins's addition to it, I respected Dawkins's career in evolutionary science, but ever since he started pivoting towards using incomplete science to push transphobia the facade all came down. The revolutionary is now just the bitter old man shouting at clouds. Frankly I was half expecting Nightwish to drop a single about male and female biology but thankfully that has not occurred... yet.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Yeah, I'll rather put this in spoilers as well..
Let me just say that I find the fact that Dawkins is currently kinda being eaten alive with almost... religious vigour by the young, restless, progressive, irreligious lot that he has nourished in the past almost inappropriately delicious.
I suppose you can only be successful in being counter-culture and tearing down worldviews as long as you know which worldviews you can safely touch.
But that was already an unsafe sentence to utter.
I suppose you can only be successful in being counter-culture and tearing down worldviews as long as you know which worldviews you can safely touch.
But that was already an unsafe sentence to utter.
Anyway, back to topic, back to topic. Or, well, back to bed, it's already past midnight and I'm a wreck as is, currently.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Also,
This is absolutely magnificent and beautiful, I wish I could send this to his phone, I applaud thee
(seriously, this might have been the best, most amazing post I've seen on MaidenFans in several years)
This is absolutely magnificent and beautiful, I wish I could send this to his phone, I applaud thee
(seriously, this might have been the best, most amazing post I've seen on MaidenFans in several years)