New Orleans/Mississippi Maidenfans...

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IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
I just heard they've upped the death toll to 80 or so, and are quite sure there's going to be even more. I don't know if we have anyone on these forums from that area, but if we do please know that I (and hopefully everyone else) hope that you, your family, and friends are safe.

It hit late as a Cat. 5, the strongest rating for hurricanes.Katrina is the strongest hurricane to hit the US since Andrew, back in 1992. CTV said the damage to personal property is expected to be $16-20,000,000,000 USD, and the damage to public infrustructure at least as great - we're talking a total of nearly $40 billion! Crap!

President Bush has said that uninsurable losses will be (partly, at least) covered by the federal disaster relief funds, which is nice.

The Gulf Coast is the centre of 25% of AMerica's domestic oil production, and New Orleans is THE major port to which foriegn (except Canadian) oil enters the US. The port obviously won't be able to accept any tanks for a few days, and all the platforms in the Gulf are completely shut down. This means gas is again going to skyrocket, though President Bush will probably release some of the government-owned surplus oil to cushion the blow to consumers.

All in all, it proves that human beings are still subject to the whim of nature. Even the mightiest nation is not immune to the awesome power of great storms. In other words: RUN TO THE HILLS! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
 
I just heard on CNN that the main levee around New Orleans was breached 90 minutes ago; water levels are rising in some areas of the city at the rate of an inch every 5 minutes. There's now only one main road leading out of the city, all the others are washed out. An officer in the Army Corps of Engineers has said there's little they can do to stop the water for now; they can only evacuate citizens.

Something like 20,000 people have taken shelter in the city's football stadium, though officials are not sure what kind of protection it will offer.
 
The worst part of it is that all the toxic chemicals running in a canal by the coast are now part of the flood.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Aug 30 2005, 06:42 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Aug 30 2005, 06:42 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Something like 20,000 people have taken shelter in the city's football stadium, though officials are not sure what kind of protection it will offer.
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The storm tore the roof off the stadium. It was closer to 10,000 according to what I read, but that's still a lot of people who were (and probably still are) S.O.L. There are plans to evacuate these trapped people, but no news yet that the evacuation has begun.

The most dramatic statement I saw in the news:
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin reported bodies floating in the city's floodwaters, which may have measured 20 feet deep in places. [a href=\'http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050830/ts_nm/weather_katrina_dc\' target=\'_blank\']Source[/a]

They're now saying the death toll will be in the hundreds; they're not even trying to keep a completely accurate count at the moment. Given the size of the storm, it will be a miracle if the death toll is under one thousand.

US gasoline prices are expected to rise at least 15% in the next few days. Sure, after appropriate litre/gallon and euro/dollar conversion, we still only pay half as much as Europeans. But that's because gasoline taxes here are much lower:
On August 8, for example, the price of gas in the US, without taxes, would be $2.17, instead of $2.56; in Britain, it would be $1.97, instead of $6.06. [a href=\'http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.html\' target=\'_blank\']Source[/a]

The point is, for years US citizens have budgeted a certain amount of dollars to pay for their gas, and now a lot of people are being squeezed because of rising prices. I feel pity for those who drive fuel-efficient vehicles, but no pity for those who drive SUVs. (I drive a SUV. I refuse to pity myself. I knew what I was getting into when I bought it.)
 
I heard a rumour (I'm too lazy to confirm it) that President Bush ordered a hault to oil trading on the stock exchanges due to the storm. Prices will be frozen at their current levels until after things settle down (so i was told)

SMX, I couldn't agree more. Yes, Americans (And Canadians) pay only a small fraction for gas compared to Europe, and we've b udgeted accordingly. Therefore a spike in prices hurt us too.

Also, nobody seems to take geography into account - the US and Canada are very sparsely populated compared to Europe, therefore we have to do alot more driving to transport goods and ourselves from place to place. The sheer size of our countries means most forms of public transit aren't economically viable, due to the huge start-up costs. (city busses and subways excepting, of course)
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Aug 30 2005, 06:33 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Aug 30 2005, 06:33 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The storm tore the roof off the stadium. It was closer to 10,000 according to what I read, but that's still a lot of people who were (and probably still are) S.O.L. There are plans to evacuate these trapped people, but no news yet that the evacuation has begun.
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Just in case it wasn't clear from my post before:
The stadium is flooding. Those 10,000 people are all in the stands; the floor is flooded. And last I heard (a few hours ago) the water was still rising. Unless help gets there very soon, those poor folks are in a death trap. They also have no clean water and no power.

I have no idea if they have communication with the outside world. I would think not - but then again, how did the news get the report that the stadium is flooding otherwise?
 
The storm's main impacts so far:
* Dead - Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour says there are reports of 50 to 80 fatalities in coastal Harrison county alone. Bodies and a shark are reported in some flooded New Orleans streets. A spokesman for the city of Biloxi in Mississippi says the death toll will be "in the hundreds".
* Damage - Risk analysts estimate the storm will cost insurers $26 billion, making Hurricane Katrina the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. Previously, Hurricane Andrew, which struck south of Miami in 1992, held that title.
* Blackouts - Around 2.3 million customers, representing anything from 4.6 million to 5.75 million people, were without power in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida.
* Oil Production - According to the government, Katrina shut more than 90 percent
of daily crude production from the Gulf. Wholesale gasoline prices jumped 50 cents to $3 per gallon.
Source: Reuters press agency

[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Aug 31 2005, 03:33 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Aug 31 2005, 03:33 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Given the size of the storm, it will be a miracle if the death toll is under one thousand.
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If that were to become reality, this would be one of the worst hurricanes in U.S. history. Numer one being an unnamed hurricane in Texas in 1900, which killed estimated 8-12 000 thousand people, number two in 1928 Florida, killing 1836, and number three in 1919 in Florida and Texas, killling 600-900.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Aug 31 2005, 05:47 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Aug 31 2005, 05:47 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If that were to become reality, this would be one of the worst hurricanes in U.S. history. Numer one being an unnamed hurricane in Texas in 1900, which killed estimated 8-12 000 thousand people, number two in 1928 Florida, killing 1836, and number three in 1919 in Florida and Texas, killling 600-900.
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You'd be refering to the Galveston storm for 1900. I'm studying historic hurricanes for my Honours Thesis, and did a bit of research on it a few months ago. Though I didn't study it in depth (because it didn't have a great impact in Canada), it did become a footnote. Here's what I wrote:

In early September 1900 a hurricane measured as a Category Four (wind 210-249 km/h) killed thousands in the town of Galveston, Texas. This very unusual hurricane eventually was felt in the Maritimes, though its impact was minimal and no contemporary association was made with the storm which devastated Galveston.
The hurricane which struck the Texas town followed an extremely unusual path. Perhaps due to its intensity, its centre travelled through Texas and Oklahoma, turning northeast in Kansas, losing velocity as it travelled over land. Once over the Great Lakes, however, the storm was re-intensified and followed a north-easterly path across New England and Northern New Brunswick. The Saint John Daily Sun reported on 13 September 1900 that a severe wind had disrupted the annual exhibition in that city, though most headlines were still devoted to covering the tragic loss of life in Texas. (further research revealed that nearly 10,000 lost their lvies in Texas. You Maiden Fans are the first people to read this paragraph outside of me and my supervisor, btw!)

Generally, hurricanes which strike the United States do not cause as much damage and loss of life as those which make landfall in Latin America or the Caribbean. This can be attributed to both socio-economic factors and geographical ones.
Without getting too technical, hurricanes need warm, moist air to maintain their strong winds and rains. The further north they go, the colder the ocean gets, making American hurricanes weaker than more southerly ones. The huge landmass of the North Americans continent quickly deprves hurricanes of their moisture, which is why Katrina was downgraded so quickly (it's now a tropical depression)

Economically, the US is rich enough to have mitigation measures in place. They can afford stronger buildings, the building of levees, shelters, evacuations, etc. Most other hurricane-prone countries cannot, and their death tolls are usually much higher.

Sadly, it's not rare to have 1000+ deaths in the Caribbean from a strong hurricane (every 10 years or so it happens). The same strength storm would cause minimal loss of life in the US, though. This makes Katrina all the more of a rarity, in my opinion. Without a doubt, this is one of the worst natural disasters in living memory for my neighbours to the south.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Aug 31 2005, 03:25 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Aug 31 2005, 03:25 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The huge landmass of the North Americans continent quickly deprves hurricanes of their moisture, which is why Katrina was downgraded so quickly (it's now a tropical depression)

This makes Katrina all the more of a rarity, in my opinion. Without a doubt, this is one of the worst natural disasters in living memory for my neighbours to the south.
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This raises the question why is Katrina still so destructive, in spite of logical reasons you named.
 
The storm itself has long passed over Louisiana/Mississippi. The problems being experienced now are due to the damage it inflicted.
Katrina's winds caused a storm surge of 15-20 feet above the normal high tide mark; the levees (I prefer to call them dykes) were not big enough to hold back that much water. The water merely spilled over them. All this spilling caused them to wash out in many places, meaning the 'normal' tides were no longer constrained.

Now, all this water from the storm surge, hurricane rains, and normal tides has to go somewhere. Water, like anything else, is subjected to the force of gravity. Since most of New Orleans is several feet below sea level, the water naturally travels there.

Imagine, if you will, a normal gravel road with potholes. After it rains, all the water runs off the road itself and into the potholes, where it has no natural drainage. New Orleans is, essentially, a giant pothole with no natural drainage. It is now filling with the water Katrina caused to surge out of the ocean.

Katrina right now is nothihng more than a rainstorm with light winds, due to being deprived of its 'fuel' for so long. Officially it has been downgraded to a tropical depression (two steps below 'hurricane' status, and barely newsworthy)
It's somewhere over Lakes Erie and Ontario at the moment, and has done nothing but cause people in that vicinity to take an umbrella to work.
 
Basically, New Orleans, while a brilliant site for a city economically, was a piss poor site for a city structurally. The entire thing is built on dirt softened by the passing of the Mighty Mississippi, which of course has changed course about 150 times in the past 1000 years. Now, the USACE has a hell of a time keeping it where it is, because if it changes course, it fucks up the entire economy of Louisiana and Mississippi.

Just to illustrate how often the Mississippi changes course, I recommend Clive Cussler's book "The Sea Hunters", in which he finds an old Confederate Ironclad buried in a hill about a mile away from any water.

Anyway. New Orleans, as more buildings grew there, began to sink. The extra weight has caused the soft soil to compact. It was low anyway, and it's gotten lower. The whole thing is at least 5 feet below sea level, the Mississippi held in by levies, dams, and dykes. The power of Katrina has ruptured those barriers, and now the storm surge has flooded the city - as well as allowing the Mississippi to flow freely into the city.

It is unlikely that New Orleans will ever be anything aside from Lake Orleans in the future. Assuming the Mississippi can even be returned to its original course, the damage to the structure and soil of the city alone might be impossible to repair. Once the city is drained, and reconstruction commences, it'll just sink even more deeply, since the soil below the city has been loosened again.

Why the hell you'd stay in New Orleans when a fucking hurricane was coming your way I'd never know. Why they didn't evacuate the city when they had warning, I'll never know. It seems like a gigantic SNAFU to me.
 
Well, you and I could debate this one until the cows come home and not agree dude. Based on very similar circumstances (albeit on a much smaller scale) which I've studied over the past few months, I think the following will happen:

The flood waters will abate.
The US Government will embark on the greatest public works project since the Hoover Dam was constructed. The levees and dykes will be rebuilt and made higher/stronger. It'll get the economy there back on its feet and make the city safer.
The city will be built anew, perhaps even BETTER. It's a great opprotunity to improve the place.

The problem is that we won't know the extent of the damage until the floods abate. It may take a month or more, but it will happen. Most infrustructure could still be intact, for all we know, and it may jus tbe a matter of restoring/rebuilding houses and shops. On the other hand, it could be tabula rasa, in which case they'll not only rebuild, but do it better.


Maybe we (Nova Scotians) should send a general message to our Cajun cousins and offer them the opprotunity to return to Acadie.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Aug 31 2005, 03:14 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Aug 31 2005, 03:14 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why the hell you'd stay in New Orleans when a fucking hurricane was coming your way I'd never know.  Why they didn't evacuate the city when they had warning, I'll never know.  It seems like a gigantic SNAFU to me.
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They did evacuate. N'awlins (that's how you pronounce it, by the way) had over a million people in the metro area, and somewhere around 90% of those got out. Thousands didn't have the means and went to shelters. The number who intentionally stayed in the face of danger is comparatively small.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Aug 31 2005, 12:33 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Aug 31 2005, 12:33 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]US gasoline prices are expected to rise at least 15% in the next few days.
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You're right. Over here the gas price went from 1.10-1.15 to 1.35.
 
Yeah, according to my father gas peaked today in Halifax at $1.39/L (CDN)
It went down to somethhing like $1.19 by the end of the day, but still SHEEAT
 
In Germany, petrol prices were raised by 12 cents during the last two days, and everything indicates that they will rise further.

The cold-hearted side of me keeps thinking this is the way the US are saying "If we die, we'll drag you to hell with us".
 
CNN is reporting that there may be two oil tankers on the Mississippi (2 million barrels each) ....possibly LEAKING OIL into the river due to their hull damage.
 
What about all those oil platforms missing? I certainly don't want to know how much oil is leaking from THEM.
I'd be surprised if the next hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico has much life to exterminate.
 
ok here's the thing I don't understand. Gas companies don't refill their tanks like once every couple of days right?(im not sure on that im young, i just assume they are refilled in longer periodical spaces) so anyways if they are still dispensing gas and oil purchased before Katrina then would not the surge in prices come when they would be trying to purchase the oil that would have been coming if Katrina had not wiped out New Orleans. I assume there if alot i do not know so im hoping someone can fill me in but it is just that I do not see how the prices would jump so quickly while we are still consuming oil and gas that was in our cities before Katrina ever came.

(i think i might have posted this twice by accident sorry if i did so)
 
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