Is Metal to blame?

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IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
So this isn't specifically related to Maiden, but it's the best place to post it (I think). Mods/Admiins, feel free to move it, delete it, or ignore it. I don't care.

Some of you may have heard about the incident in Montreal on Wednesday afternoon. At a collegiate school in downtown Montreal, Dawson College, (basically a prep school), some 25 year old goth sprayed dozens of people with bullets from an automatic weapon.
As of now, one person is confirmed dead, and many more in very critical condition. The shooter is also dead, but we're still not sure if he killed himself or the police officers who, by sheer luck, happened to be in the school at the time shot him.

The guy was basically a freak. He dressed as a typical goth, always talked about suicide, etc. (According to those who uncovered his identity)
His blog, located at http://vampirefreaks.com/journal_commen ... ry=2848056 was found, but so many people across the country have accessed it that it's been taken offline for now (likely at the request of the QPP/RCMP)
From what I've heard, though, he was one sick individual.

Someone who was near him when he was killed told the reporters that his final words were "Metal and Goth kick ass. Life is like a video game, you gotta die sometime."

So the question which arises, for us, is this: How do you think people are going to react to this statement? Will metal and video games, old scapegoats for all youth problems, be touted as evil again? Is there even the slightest possibility that metal does contribute to such behavior through, for example, desensitizing young minds (i.e. NOT MATURE) to "evil" topics such as rage, violence, etc.?
That didn't take long.
 
IronDuke said:
Is there even the slightest possibility that metal does contribute to such behavior through, for example, desensitizing young minds (i.e. NOT MATURE) to "evil" topics such as rage, violence, etc.?
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Yes, the possibility exists. The possibility exists if the non-mature minds are not exposed to sentisising in the first place. If a young person is not educated about the truth meanings of violence, rage, hate, death, whatever, he has no idea why they really are that bad. If exposed to music that is, at least superficially, dealing with such topics in a non-critical way (remember, young minds often still need to learn how to read between the lines), then the results could be dangerous. However, the music alone is not to blame. Television and video games contribute to it, and are perhaps even bigger factors.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these things should be banned completely. Many of my favourite films are violent, and I play the occasional violent video game (although I do not enjoy them as much as I used to). I only say that people who are unable to place them in the real world should not be exposed to them. It is the responsibility of parents and other people entrusted with the education of these people to ensure they do not get into contact with such things before they are ready for them.
 
IronDuke said:
The shooter is also dead, but we're still not sure if he killed himself or the police officers who, by sheer luck, happened to be in the school at the time shot him.
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According to reports in the UK, he was shot by the police.

Nicely surmised Perun - getting a grip on reality is the key here. It may very well be easy to blame the music, his video game or whatever, but you have to be slightly deranged (or just full of so much hate) to do this, or even have thoughts about it, in the first place. Rather than look at the parenting/education of this young man, the music (or whatever) will always be the scapegoat. It's becoming a little tedious now.
 
When I first heard of the Dawson College shootings, I thought of Ecole Politechnique shootings that happened as a result of a sexist maniac. 

I don't think a majority of people will blame the music, with the exception of maybe the far religious right.  They never pass an opportunity like this.  Violence in music is commonplace now, (video games are even worse - Postal, GTA, etc.) and most youth do not commit atrocious crimes like this past Wednesday, or Columbine or dozens of others. 

The main contributors to violent behaviour, I think, is people's relation to reality, self and others.  Does a person know the difference between make-belief and real? Some people do not have the mental or emotional skills to deal with everyday life: job, family, etc.  In an ever-changing world most can't adapt to new realities.  These people find it too hard to deal with stresses of constant change.  I don't mean to blame Western society.  But that is how it is for some people; they do blame society. 

Instead of spending some time reflecting on their behaviour or seeking help, they look for individuals who will "understand them", in order to belong.  The shooter seemed to find a new trend to belong to; vampirism and goth. 

I don't mean to come on all high and mighty, but I speak from personal experience.  There was a time I've needed major help and seeking it within the framework and comfort of the people who were like me was making it worse. 

Ultimately, I would place the blame on the individual. 

As for violence in music and video games... it does not affect me.  I can enjoy a violent song and realize that it should not be taken literally.  Minds that are tought to be active will listen and watch violent themes and ask "why is this person like this?".  But they won't emulate.  Sadly, many parents and caretakers allow the T.V. and other media to be their children's baby-sitters.

Perun said:
I only say that people who are unable to place them in the real world should not be exposed to them. It is the responsibility of parents and other people entrusted with the education of these people to ensure they do not get into contact with such things before they are ready for them.
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I condone and would abide by the above statement.  My kids won't be playing GTA-type games or be permitted to listen to songs like Megadeth's "Good Mourning/Black Friday"  (as much as I love Megadeth).  Professionals who deal with children and youth will instruct parents on how to monitor and mould their son/daughter's behaviour while being exposed to violence in media.  If the parents are not home, there is a Net Nanny-type product for every type of media.

*steps off his pulpit.

Canadians and violence strike a chord within me.  I came home yesterday and I did not like what I saw on my television set.  I'm not talking about the angry shooter as much as I'm talking about the media.  The newscasters made it seem like Montreal has made violence in colleges a habitual past-time.
 
First of all, I'm glad that only one person died, considering how many got hit with bullets. It could have been much worse. I feel terrible for that one person's family, but the rest were lucky that this fool was either a bad shot or didn't care about accuracy.

Will they blame music and video games? That's certainly what happened in the US after Columbine, so we know it would happen in the US. I'm honestly curious to see if the Canadian press starts jumping to those same conclusions. Canadians have a reputation worldwide for being sensible, reasonable and level-headed. I hope this translates into a realization by their press that the shooter was just a sick fuck, and it's not the fault of entertainers.

Still, it's unfortunately likely that at least a few people will blame music with violent lyrics. We all know how Marilyn Manson specifically got unjustly blamed for Columbine. I wonder who it will be this time? Sooner or later, some journalist is going to find out who this fool listened to and some band will get blamed for having a dumb fan.

I have a feeling it won't be Iron Maiden. It takes intelligence to appreciate Iron Maiden, and this fool obviously lacked that quality.
 
Apparently the shooter liked guns.  I don't know if that is a good thing.  I have been reading up on the website this person belonged to and it turns out several of its members committed crimes in the last 5 or 6 years.  The site apparently has 600,000 users. I have not found a mention of heavy metal in relation to this event, though.
 
I was shocked because it is not a very common thing in Canada, mass killings that is. The U.S in comparison has one or two every decade or so. I hope people realize that regardless of the gun control laws, security precautions, and utopic society they want or have, there is ALWAYS going to be some deviant, ill folk who just won't fit in no matter what. Music, movies and the like have little to nothing to do with it.
 
There will always be insane individuals that will do crazy things - a truism, I know. There will always be fools and people beside themselves with grief that will look everywhere for something or someone to blame - that is also something we know for certain. But when somebody starts blaming music, I think they're very wrong. Who knows what will make a mentally ill person cross the line? Mozart's Requiem, perhaps? It's his death mass after all, maybe that will inspire someone. Or the Old Testament where a vengeful God wreaks havoc on his people. Or a Tom and Jerry cartoon, where apparently cats do survive being blown up by a stick of dynamite.
To be perfectly honest, I think music (and especially metal) can be a vent for a person to release aggressions, not harness them and let them out like in Columbine or Montreal. There are different mecanisms at play here, I think. If I'm really mad about something, or upset, and put on some really good metal at a very loud volume I'll feel better after a few songs. Of course not all people function like I do, but when blaming music or video games or movies, we take something away from the individual - freedom of choice. This guy in Montreal made a choice; in his mind it may have been a perfectly rational choice based on who he was and his beliefs. But to blame his musical taste? Never.
I seem to remember a case in the USA 15-20 years ago when Judas Priest was sued due to "Beyond the realms of death" when two teenage boys had committed suicide or murder? Memory is very hazy but I saw a documentary about "Robin Hood hills" or something to that effect. I can't remember what the trial's verdict on JP was, though? Anyone able to help?
 
Anomica, to most of us, this type of thing -aggressive music, video games, whatnot- is rather a way of expression than anything else. When I'm full of things that threaten to blow me up, I have a nice session of Judas Priest - Painkiller and I feel better afterwards. But what about those people who have no aggression to begin with. Who have no idea what these people are talking about?

I'm not saying children should be completely spared from anything that is considered "unsuitable". Children need to make experiences that are frightening, sad or, generally, negative, because it is also necessary to sentisise them.

To be continued.
 
Metal less so than these violent video games that kids are all over, and violent movies etc.  Kids are raised being more over exposed to sex and violence as the years go on.  It's unfortunate yet part of society these days.  Metal was accussed of it, now video games and movies and internet... and it's all fair game really cause there's always some who are influenced by all this shit.  Truth be told I think the media are equal blame if not more.  Twisting things to be news worthy and not caring what they show on the six oclock news.  Sensationalism. There's enough violence in that half hour to screw up anyone!

Not sure if you recall the shooting at Port Arthur in Tasmania Australia in 1996?  A lone gunman shot and killed 35 people and injured dozens more.  He had an arsenal of weapons and picked a secluded spot with high number of tourists and no Police.  The fucker had it planed for a long while.  There was no mention of metal music or anything.  The guy was just a fucked up unit.  When there's an oppurtunity for a story of 'metal made me do it' or whatever the case the media are all over it. I was surprised it didn't happen on that occassion.

I think in answer to your question I agree with Perun.  Anything is possible.  But at the end of the day I believe there HAS to be something else in their background or recent history to cause this kinda violence.  Upbringing, seperation, abuse, mental dissorders, etc.  I honestly believe although Metal may encourage rebellion and venting etc, most fans use it as a source of release more than anything.  The violence is usually brought about by the addition of drugs of some description.  Alcohol is the obvious one!
 
Perun said:
I'm not saying children should be completely spared from anything that is considered "unsuitable". Children need to make experiences that are frightening, sad or, generally, negative, because it is also necessary to sentisise them.
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Only last week I went to my nephews 18th. This kid has had a fair bit of crap to deal with in his life and really could have been one of these "screwed up individuals". The thing here, is that my sister has let him experience this pain but also taught him how to deal with it. He has turned out to be a pretty all round good kid - and you can tell he is happy. My sister has not "molly coddled" him which I believe has helped. Had she sheltered him from everything - well, this is when the repression starts and before you know it, stuff like the above happens.
 
Is your nephew a music lover?  A lot of kids harness music and it's amazing how it can heal.  Helped me...
 
WardyS3 said:
Is your nephew a music lover?  A lot of kids harness music and it's amazing how it can heal.  Helped me...
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He is indeed - he listens to most types of rock.
 
It helped me and it still does, that and reading. Not to mention excercising helps to. and it doesn't have to be strenous, a 20 or 40 minute walk is very relaxing and invigorating.
 
Yeah, walking along a lonely beach with A Matter of Life and Death blasting on your iPod or discman... B)
 
I think if your weak minded person, anything will influence what you do. Myself for instance have been listing to metal for about 25 years and have never had a song influence me to do anything that I wouldn't do other wise.
 
Do you have to be weak minded if you have lost your grip on reality? I think the scenario here is not necessarily of a person easily influenced, but of one who couldn't tell when the game ended or the fact that the lyrics are just that - lyrics.
 
Reality is a thin line.You could be weak minded and lose your grip on reality or lose your grip and become weak minded. Some of the worlds smartest people are weak minded. Albert Einstein was weak minded, he was easily influenced. I'm not saying it's always a bad thing, but the weak minded do get influenced by song lyrics. The look too deep into them. As for the other end of the spectrum the mentally ill don't know any different, and think the lyrics are true or take them to serious.
 
That argument does not impress me, Wrathchild.  Explain, please! 

I've been influenced by music.  This does not mean I'm weak minded. 

For example, I've listened to Judgement of Heaven.  I'm typically turned-off by religion and skeptical of people who speak in religious terms.  After hearing the song, however, I've noticed that the lyrics speak about self-resposibility and not giving away your judgement (mental faculty) to some omnipotent entity regardless of how bad a situation may seem at the moment.  The song's character believes in 'judgement of heaven' but also knows that it is important to get on with one's life.  This song made me think that a person may turn to religion to help himself/herself.  I don't often feel this way.  The song influenced me.  It happens all the time. 

The difference is, as Albie said, knowing what is real and what is not.
 
Some fuel for the fire:

In California a few years ago, a police officer pulled over a young black man. The black man was listening to the Tu Pac Shakur song "Cop Killer", which, in essence, advocates violence against law enforcement.
The black man, apparently in a fit of frenzy, shot the policeman dead as he approached the car.
California has a 0 Tolerance policy for those who murder police officers - if found guilty it's an automatic death sentence. The lawyer for the man, however, successfully argued that the music to which the young man was listening caused him to be lost in the moment and commit the crime. He was still sentenced to life in prison, but the death penalty was commuted.

(this is areally great discussion so far guys!)
 
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