High school shooting in Finland ...

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

Tragic. An 18 years old boy shot and killed 8 people at his local high school before shooting himself ... he had earlier hailed those who used violence to protest against society and was said to support extremists on both political wings. He had also published a video named "Jokela high school massacre" on YouTube some days ago.

What makes things like this happen? I really don't understand.

My condolances to those who lost someone in this tragic incident and best wishes to those who are injured.

 

[porcnoz]

One information misses : what kind of music was he used to listen to ? Sure, it must be metal. So, metal is bad but not for your health actually, but for the others' one. North Europ is known to be one of the region that produces the main part of metal bands. There's no smoke without fire.

One a more serious point :
what kind of weapon did he employ ?
How did it fall in his hands ?

 

[Onhell]

One information misses : what kind of music was he used to listen to ? Sure, it must be metal. So, metal is bad but not for your health actually, but for the others' one. North Europ is known to be one of the region that produces the main part of metal bands. There's no smoke without fire.

I hope this is a joke....


To answer your question, isolation is my guess as the main cause for these type of tragedies. These people (like those in the U.S who have done similar things) are social drop-outs who blame others for their and societies problems. They are withdrawn and even their families don't know what they are thinking. This isolation can be a by product of modernities socialization where individuality is prized so much and we have few if any strong bonds with others.... including family.

Thus somebody who feels isolated and alienated from others and in a way themselves (deeper PSYCHOLOGICAL issues are at play as well) usually take such measures.

 

[Anonymous]

The problem is that it's always possible to put the blame on something. Social isolation can be the cause of hatred of mankind. Lack of love can be the cause of lack of compassion. Violent ideology can be the cause of acceptance of violence. Aggressive music can be the cause of aggressive behaviour. Violent video games can be the cause of desensitisation. The presence of a weapon can become the ultimate inspiration for such a deed.

On the other hand, for every possible cause, there is someone who will neglect it. The basic argument is: If it is the cause, then why isn't everybody who is isolated/unloved/reading Satanist literature/listening to heavy metal/playing violent games/in ownership of a gun running around and killing everybody?

The answer is obviously that there is not the one cause. There never is, there never will be. It's convenient to choose a scapegoat, because this way, worried mothers, registered voters and insecure individuals will have the feeling that something is done in a field where nothing can be done. But life isn't that simple. If you honestly think you can pinpoint one single cause, you might as well check that your red-haired neighbour isn't planning to eat your children or the Jews haven't poisoned your well.

 

[Albie]

If only the people that make such judgements could think like Perun, then perhaps we may find a solution to these senseless acts of violence, rather than just blame someone/something that the perpetrator may have been influenced by (but then again, if they did think like Perun, they wouldn't point the finger in the first place).

You have to be pretty screwed in the first place to perform such an act and surely the people around the potential gunmen (or whatever) can see this imbalance in them and, hopefully, act before the event. After all, and from what has been reported, in this instance the gunman made no secret of his intentions.

 

[Onhell]

I think Perun is saying that my trying to pinpoint one or several probable theories as to the why is pointless and Albie, you are trying to say that if we all just realized we are owners of our own actions these types of acts would just not happen, correct? Yes? No?

I still stand by what i said for I do think it is possible to pin point a "why" or many. And after following several of such cases the overwhelming "cause" has been isolation... just saying.

 

[porcnoz]

The problem is that it's always possible to put the blame on something

Because if you do that, you don't bear the responsability. So you don't have to think about what you could do to avoid this in the futur.

I hope this is a joke....

Indeed no.

Spoiler

- Homosexuality is a sin and gays must pay that with their life ;
- Jews all have a long nose and vice versa ;
- All the muslims are islamists so terrorists (so don't go out, one of them is waiting for you with a bomb) ;
- American government closely watches us all ;
- Metal is bad for your mental health and will bring you long hair and three days old beard.

Don't worry Onhell, that was a joke. 

I wrote that because we all heard a couple of times that it was because of metal that some make violent actions.

 

[Onhell]

Because if you do that, you don't bear the responsability. So you don't have to think about what you could do to avoid this in the futur.

There can be a reason as to why a person decides to make a certain decision, but that does not free them from responsibility, they still had a choice.

Also, good one with the spoiler there

 

[Invader]

what kind of weapon did he employ ?
How did it fall in his hands ?

It was a basic handgun.  He was part of a marksmanship association, and he had the gun completely legally. 

And from what I've heard, he wasn't isolated.  He apparently had friends and a girlfriend (though, to be fair, she had dumped him a few weeks back).  He was also apparently smart and "better than average" at school, and liked philosophy and history.

I was really shocked by this, though.  It's one thing to see these kind of things in other countries, and another to have them happen in your own country; I found it disturbing and really shocking to watch the same kind of news from the scene in a genuinely Finnish environment.

 

[Albie]

....and Albie, you are trying to say that if we all just realized we are owners of our own actions these types of acts would just not happen, correct? Yes? No?

Yes, to a degree. I also tried to suggest that people around this man must have seen something in him that could be deemed as dangerous - surely they did not see all of his YouTube postings, etc. as simply some sort of bravado? But also, people do perform acts of violence and still accept the responsibility. In this instance, he apparently wholly accepted his responsibility - "Don't blame my parents, the music I listen to, the games I play", or something along those lines was what he was quoted as saying.

I still stand by what i said for I do think it is possible to pin point a "why" or many. And after following several of such cases the overwhelming "cause" has been isolation... just saying.

I will agree that isolation can be the cause of such acts, but not all people in isolation will do this.

 

[porcnoz]

There can be a reason as to why a person decides to make a certain decision (...)

By writing you, I meant society actually. The belief is that if you manage to hide the symptoms, then there's no illness. And that's what everybody does nowadays, always find something to put the blame on, to quote Perun.
I have to say that, thanks to Perun and Albie, I feel a little less alone !

I forget (one more time) the reason why I firstly wanted to post there :

it reminded me something I saw on TV a little while ago.
It was a TV reporting about people who had mental troubles, and there was a young woman who was nearly bald because she couldn't stop pull out her hair, burn it and then eat it (disgusting ? Don't complain, you didn't see the reporting). No one could help or do anything to help her. She knew she had a strong trouble, knew what it was exactly but just couldn't stop.

Like we say : "There's no worst deaf than the one who doesn't want to hear". You can do whatever you want, if he or she doesn't want to be helped, you won't be able to, so you couldn't avoid such things like high school shots.

 

[Albie]

Like we say : "There's no worst deaf than the one who doesn't want to hear". You can do whatever you want, if he or she doesn't want to be helped, you won't be able to, so you couldn't avoid such things like high school shots.

I like that phrase - very fitting. As with most problems people have (be it psychological, or whatever) the first stage of recovery or rehabilitation is to admit to yourself that you have that problem in the first place.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Every once in a while a thread like this pops up.  I recall last year around this time the Montreal shooter prompted many posts.  Without any attempt at grimmness or cynicism, I think societies around the world will see more heinous acts such as this one in Finland.  I've read somewhere that in both Canada and America, violence has declined but instances such as school shootings have risen dramatically.  It does make one wonder.

On a related note, I re-watched 'Bowling for Columbine' yesterday and two facts stuck out: 1) the permation of fear into modern societies via media; 2) the easy availability of guns.

I know, like Perun said, there is no single cause of violence, but I do wonder about the effect of the two listed points above.

 

[porcnoz]

On a related note, I re-watched 'Bowling for Columbine' yesterday and two facts stuck out: 1) the permation of fear into modern societies via media; 2) the easy availability of guns.

(...) I do wonder about the effect of the two listed points above.

About the second point you listed

In France, we don't shoot, we throw acid on face. So it must be one of the best examples that guns are not really the matter. What is ironic is that the guy who threw acid found it in the school during a chemistry practical work.
To conclude : If one wants to do harm, there's always a way to reach it.

To be a bit philosophical, the greatest advantage of our Human condition, and also the worst default, is our imagination.

(...) the permation of fear into modern societies via media (...)

I interpret it like we're near the end of the Occidental civilization (even if I think that fear is not brought, it's only amplificated, by medias but because our society gets older day after day. Closed areas were made for and inhabited by retireds). Like the fact we don't accept that our relatives can be killed, although they belong to the military. (Death makes part of their job and they knew what were the risks before they signed in, so (to me) it's no way to complain for.) Somehow, we're acting like Romans did a few while before they declined, we call for private companies (see Dark Water in Iraqi). (Reminder : Romans called for barbarians to form their army)
Here stands my own opinion based on History I've learned a long time ago (over 15 years). So feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

Without any attempt at grimmness or cynicism, I think societies around the world will see more heinous acts such as this one in Finland.

Nowadays, we're always trying to protect from our neighbours because we fear them, so we build walls (ask Palestinian and Mexican what they think and how they feel about that). But the less we know them, the more we fear so we build other protections and the process never stops.

Spoiler

I like that phrase - very fitting.

Thanks, but I only reported a popular expression ! Don't you have an equivalent expression in your mother tongue ?

If anyone has so, I'm curious and interested to know how it's like. If you think this can interest other members, post it here or maybe a topic can be created (?), otherwise send me it by PM !

 

[LooseCannon]

About the second point you listed

In France, we don't shoot, we throw acid on face. So it must be one of the best examples that guns are not really the matter. What is ironic is that the guy who threw acid found it in the school during a chemistry practical work.
To conclude : If one wants to do harm, there's always a way to reach it.

Throwing acid on someone's face is an assault on one person.  Using a gun to shoot down random people is an entirely different scenario, and requires an entirely different level of violence to do it.  It may be premeditated, but it does not have a personal reason, rather an overarching social reason, be it "wishing to go out with a bang", a hatred of women (consider the Montreal Polytechnique shootings of...88? 89?), or whatsoever reason it may be.  Guns are a method of wholesaleing murder, whereas acid is one target, one time.  There is a major difference between the two.

You're right in that there are other methods to pull it off - devastating bombs, for instance, can be easily made (re: McVeigh, 1995), but it doesn't quite have the effect on the psyche as an assault with an armed weapon.

I interpret it like we're near the end of the Occidental civilization (even if I think that fear is not brought, it's only amplificated, by medias but because our society gets older day after day. Closed areas were made for and inhabited by retireds). Like the fact we don't accept that our relatives can be killed, although they belong to the military. (Death makes part of their job and they knew what were the risks before they signed in, so (to me) it's no way to complain for.) Somehow, we're acting like Romans did a few while before they declined, we call for private companies (see Dark Water in Iraqi). (Reminder : Romans called for barbarians to form their army)
Here stands my own opinion based on History I've learned a long time ago (over 15 years). So feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

Done.  What's occurring in Iraq is not incidental of our entire civilization.  Rome was dependent on mercenaries for centuries before she fell.  The use of fear as a vehicle to sell news is, of course, discouraging - but we do not entirely fall for it, every time.  Even the American populace, one of the less educated in the world (thanks, FoxNews!) understands that "fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice...well, you fool me once, you can't fool me again"[sup]1[/sup], especially in regards to the proposed wars in Iran.  Nobody wants to go there, it seems.

Besides, one of the chief causes of Rome's fall was the legend of invincibility.  You might say that the West has this same thought about it (and it does), however, there are not endless waves of barbarian invaders riding into Washington DC.  I honestly believe that our civilization has many, many more years to go before we move to the next phase.  Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on what the next phase will end up being... ...

Nowadays, we're always trying to protect from our neighbours because we fear them, so we build walls (ask Palestinian and Mexican what they think and how they feel about that). But the less we know them, the more we fear so we build other protections and the process never stops.

Wall production is for two entirely different reasons in Israel and the USA, though I agree the overarching reason is fear.  The difference is that in Israel, it is a military fear, and in the US, it's economic.  The concept of creating a wall in the US is nothing more than a stopgap, a method to show the government is doing something when it doesn't dare do what needs doing.  Israel, I don't consider what they do to be justified, but there is a certain sense to it.  Yet, I do believe, with all my heart, that we will soon see the end of that terrible conflic... ...for now.

1. Quotation from George W. Bush.

 

[porcnoz]

Guns are a method of wholesaleing murder, whereas acid is one target, one time.  There is a major difference between the two.

You're right, the acid thrower wanted to punish the girl. That's a tale about religion and relation between a girl and a boy. Comment : the girl is always the one who the blame is put on, never the guy whom you'll never know the name or see the face.

I (happily) don't remember a student shooting students in a french school. But it was about violence in school, place that I considere secure and securisant for children.

Even the American populace, one of the less educated in the world (thanks, FoxNews!) understands that "fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice...well, you fool me once, you can't fool me again"[sup]1[/sup], especially in regards to the proposed wars in Iran.  Nobody wants to go there, it seems.

That's the first time I see that, you didn't write they're the most stupid but the less educated. I'll make your idea mine if you don't see any objection.

For Iran, Americans wanted to go on war with the whole region, they talked about assaulting Syria.

 

[LooseCannon]

You're right, the acid thrower wanted to punish the girl. That's a tale about religion and relation between a girl and a boy. Comment : the girl is always the one who the blame is put on, never the guy whom you'll never know the name or see the face.

I (happily) don't remember a student shooting students in a french school. But it was about violence in school, place that I considere secure and securisant for children.

Right.  Where I come from, when someone is attacked, we don't blame the victim but the assailant, and I don't care what god you worship (if any).  The difference, again, is that the purpose of the violence is altered.  If you think schools are secure, that's horseshit.  Violence is a constant function of schools - bullying, fights, threats, etc.  Murder, however, is usually kept under control.  The idea of a school shooting is to inflict fear, on everyone.  The idea of flinging acid in someone's face is to take revenge for a supposed slight.  They have very, very different psyches behind them.

France is very lucky in that it has not yet seen a school shooting.  But don't be shocked if it does eventually occur.

For Iran, Americans wanted to go on war with the whole region, they talked about assaulting Syria.

Iran is *NOT* part of the Middle East or the Arab world.  Also, it's sorta ridiculous to say "Americans" want to go to war with a region.  It's the US government, specifically the executive branch.  You can't blame the entire country.  There are some 28% of Americans left who support Bush and his governance.  It's a dangerous oversimplification.

 

[porcnoz]

Where I come from, when someone is attacked, we don't blame the victim but the assailant, and I don't care what god you worship (if any).

France is very lucky in that it has not yet seen a school shooting.  But don't be shocked if it does eventually occur.

First, I'm sorry, I posted too quickly and before it was really finished and enough thought. So, once again, sorry. That was stupid, I'm not so busy.

We blame the assailant too, the one I designed by "the guy" is her boyfriend actually. (reason why I apologize at the beginning)

Also, it's sorta ridiculous to say "Americans" want to go to war with a region.  It's the US government, specifically the executive branch.  (...) It's a dangerous oversimplification.

I know and that's what I meant (Americans = American government). Before you post any reacting post to this, read once again the first line. I'll make my possible to care about this kind of things and not doing this mistake twice